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is awesome32282 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:30 Magic_Mike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post. Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!! I love how when someone has some sort of argument against this sort of thing, the only response is exactly like this guy says or a snide insulting response. You are only furthering his point by being dismissive rather than responding to his concerns directly.
zatic already answered him. He asked him for examples to act on.
I also already responded with my thoughts on this thread and answered several people, but I got ignored.
edit: not to mention saying we have "an agenda to push" is pretty ridiculous AND insulting. Like if we were getting paid by KeSPA to write newsposts. (we are not!)
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Zurich15366 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:31 snailz wrote:
to sum up, dont watch tsl3 finals. its highschool football. am i right? :p
Actually, if you had read the OP, it's more like :
Watch TSL3 finals! It's Highschool Football!
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anyone else saying this kind of pretensious stuff would get banned for flame-baiting, so i still, 3 days before tsl3 (sc2 tournament that brings $$$ in), can not belive this was put on tl.net front page. yes, ofcourse, go shit where u eat.
if it wasnt for sc2 u would have 10 pages of discussion to this "article" in few weeks time on a dying site, and not 80 pages in couple of hours on a resurected world portal for esports. so good job tl.net staff for making your new members feel at home! great work!
bw>sc2 and world>korea
since im not writing in korean, guess what (should) matter more to editors.
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On May 13 2011 00:35 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:30 ak1knight wrote:On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that?  I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats? There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year. Come on You act like the most skilled BW player wins every game. Flash was knocked out by CLASSIC and SSAK. JD has lost plenty of times. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information, so the best player WILL not win every time. There's too much variance in the game for that to happen, too much Clausewitzian friction, and THATS what makes it a good game to watch. Chess is a game where the more skilled player will win nearly every time, and its as interesting as watching paint dry.
Yeah Flash lost after making 3 consecutive OSL AND MSL finals. He doesn't win every single time but he's extremely consistent compared to the top SC2 pros.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51716 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:42 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:38 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post. Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!! trolololol anyways this is why I thinkknow TBLS will dominate SC2 if the switch over since so many of you are convinced that because some former BW players are not dominating none of them can. what do you need to be top of the top in BW. 1)Mechanics 2)Game Sense 3)Decision Making 2 and 3 combined makes strategy. now TBLS are the masters of mechanics but what truly puts them on top is their Game sense and Decision making. What do you need in SC2? well mechanics are much much much easier in SC2 thanks to MBS and Automine(so everyone's mechanics are pretty much the same at the highest of the highest levels). you are left with Game sense and Decision making which most players do lack behind the TBLS,without mechanics limiting them as much they will dominate. What is TBLS?figure that out,atleast then you might learn some BW knowledge. If mechanics are the same at the highest of highest levels, why do players like MVP, Idra, ToP, and Nada have consistently better mechanics than their peers?
because their peers might not have reached that level yet.:p
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On May 13 2011 00:35 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:30 ak1knight wrote:On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that? I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats? There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year. Come on You act like the most skilled BW player wins every game. Flash was knocked out by CLASSIC and SSAK. JD has lost plenty of times. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information, so the best player WILL not win every time. There's too much variance in the game for that to happen, too much Clausewitzian friction, and THATS what makes it a good game to watch. Chess is a game where the more skilled player will win nearly every time, and its as interesting as watching paint dry.
The variance in SC2 is just ridiculous though. Even I (a gold leaguer) could probably knock a game off Idra by cannon rushing or proxy 2 gate that he doesn't scout. In BW I could play a million games against Flash and not win once.
SC2 players people consider the top in the world are dropping to up/downs in GSL, while players like Naniwa and Inca are getting to finals. Something like that rarely happens in BW.
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On May 13 2011 00:37 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:34 hypercube wrote:
I find it incredibly frustrating when I'm watching an SC2 game and see top players banking 500 or even 1k+ resources in the midgame with no battles going on. There's just absolutely no excuse for that. Or a recent NASL match where someone forgot their 3rd depot. It's not even top BW pros these players have to fear. Unless they start demanding much more from themselves they are going to be swept away by the next generation. Just like the early BW players were isn't it good that better and better players will emerge?
That's pretty much what I think. The skill gap between what we have now and what is humanly possible is huge. The only question is who's going to close that gap? Current top players, players coming over from Broodwar or a completely new generation.
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On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post. Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!!
I don't think mockery serves anything but fueling the fire, providing validity to his point.
We all know conspiracy theorists, they're cute, but don't feed them. Just let 'em die.
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On May 13 2011 00:38 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post. Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!! trolololol anyways this is why I thinkknow TBLS will dominate SC2 if the switch over since so many of you are convinced that because some former BW players are not dominating none of them can. what do you need to be top of the top in BW. 1)Mechanics 2)Game Sense 3)Decision Making 2 and 3 combined makes strategy. now TBLS are the masters of mechanics but what truly puts them on top is their Game sense and Decision making. What do you need in SC2? well mechanics are much much much easier in SC2 thanks to MBS and Automine(so everyone's mechanics are pretty much the same at the highest of the highest levels). you are left with Game sense and Decision making which most players do lack behind the TBLS,without mechanics limiting them as much they will dominate. What is TBLS?figure that out,atleast then you might learn some BW knowledge.
so what you're saying is that game sense and decision making can not be worked on? i dont assume that everyone in the world can achieve the same level of game sense and decision making, but it is something that can be taught and learned. there is a limit on how good your decision making can be (no errors) so i think eventually it will be close enough.
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Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
While you make good arguments I think this type of cynical mentality is a bad thing. Take any sport and there will be times where there are not any greats like Carl Lewis or Jordan but does that take anything away from the sport? Not at all! The pure competition that sport creates is always a beautiful thing to see unfold. I'm looking forward to the day that the best BW player's move to SC2 but until then I will still love every minute of every match I watch ^__^
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On May 13 2011 00:30 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that? I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats? There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year.
Too much volatility? How much is too much.
Why should the most skilled players win every game? If they play well, they win. If they fall to some cheese or fail to punish risky openings, that's too goddamned bad. No one is going to watch a sport where the games are predictable. It's 6 scvs and 50 minerals against 6 probes and 50 minerals; after that, whatever happens is anyones' guess.
MC, Inca and MKP are all top players. I would expect that their 4-gates and marine all-ins be pretty hard to hold against. I don't understand your point in bringing them into the argument. If you think that they are winning despite dubious strategies, then it goes against your point that the performance of the "most skilled players" is violatile.
How did you measure Idra's skill, rofl.
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i welcome the arrivals of S-class Brood War pros! it means SC2 has really made it to the limelight if the truly good players start switching :D
Tastosis have stated many times that the ones on top of SC2 now were mediocre in their BW careers. But i believe its because they were mediocre that they wanted the glory more in SC2 where they can get a fresh start! For that i really hope they stay on top even when the monsters of BW start coming over to SC2.
plus we have another 4-5 years before Flash or Jaedong even considers switching games  (Flash's own words)
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On May 12 2011 14:10 Resistentialism wrote:
Also, I thought the real elephant in the room was that if they'd just swing the cameras around, there just aren't really that many people in the studio.
Second this. Last year's season 1 has great crowd. But now, less and less people went to Gomtv studio. And sometimes, there are more foreigners than Koreans, this has to be troublesome for Gomtv. How can they attract Korean audience?
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wow, i didn't expect so much critizism in here. i have to say i agree with the threads opinion. obviously if flash learned BW in a half year he will figure sc2 out in about a month.
sc2 is a different gsme. yes but the overwhelming majority of the pros are former BW players.
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I really dislike this article for reasons that loads of people have mentioned so I won't keep repeating what they've said.
But my addition is that part of what I really enjoy about SC2 atm is the growth. It's growing very quickly, and it's awesome to see. Even something kinda simple like
+ Show Spoiler [kinda gsl spoiler, old news though] + seeing NesTea use spines to attack a forge fe.
Absolutely amazing. And then when SC2 matures fully after the expansions and everything, I might not be able to enjoy the growth as much, but I'll sure as hell enjoy the great games.
People are far too negative :D
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Interesting article. While I'm glad the author used lots of statistics in the article, there really isn't enough statistical evidence to confirm a causation out of the data. The assumption that a certain amount of characteristics are the key for a successful starcraft career is a logical fallacy of cause and effect.
The only evidence we have of a recent ex-bw pro moving to starcraft is MVP and while he has won 2 GSL titles, 3 ex-BW unsuccessful players have also won GSL titles. Could Flash or Jaedong make a splash in the SC2 scene? Absolutely. Is there enough empirical evidence to suggest that they'll "dominate" the SC2? Absolutely not.
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yeah i totally agree BW players deserve more respect then the SC2 players. I am not syaing SC2 players are bad. They are really really good at the game but when you watch a game between jaedong and flash.... u get goosebumps
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On May 13 2011 00:37 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:25 gn0m wrote:Many posters seem to misunderstand the fundamental aspects of Brood War. BW is easily more demanding in terms of mechanics, but that does not mean that SC2 automatically is more strategy based.  Bisu and  Jaedong obviously have excellent mechanics but so do many other BW progamers. Mechanics can only take you so far, how well is the 500+ APM zerg by.hero doing for example? In order to succeed in BW, One need to have great mechanics AND a very deep understanding of the game. BW has continued to evolve over 13 years and is still changing strategy wise, which gives you a hint of the complexity of the game. SC2 has only been out for a very short time in comparison and we are yet to see what the expansions will bring to the table. Will SC2 become as complex in the future? Possibly. But my point is that it is not very hard to catch up on the strategic development of SC2 for someone who has grasped the strategy of BW. The game has simply not been out long enough. Any argument saying that SC2 players need a different skill set (less mechanics, more strategy) is really underestimating the strategic aspects of BW – there is not less strategy in BW, it is just more mechanics. I do agree with what you say here, except that I would add one thing: SC2 pros have not reached any sort of mechanical-skill culmination.People seem to have this opinion that SC2 is much more shallow than BW, and while perhaps true to some superficial extent, I have to disagree and say that the games are only as shallow and 'easy to learn' as the competition requires. This is not to say that I do not believe there is a skill disparity between SC2 pros and BW pros, however, in fact the opposite: Frequently when watching SC2 pro players, I see them float over 600 minerals even when there's just a single, small push occurring. If they do a drop then that is all they are capable of doing during that period. Some players are slightly better than others with multitasking, Idra comes to mind, but overall the level of multitasking, multi-pronged army control, and general resource management is MUCH worse among SC2 players than among BW pros. I think the above in turn shapes what strategies people are doing, or perhaps the causality goes the other way as well. People prefer to build up an army ball and move out, hoping (or knowing) they have produced slightly more units, or units with a slight advantage over the others. I believe this is in direct correspondence to not having the mechanical ability to control several groups at the same time. People rely on the unlimited control groups of SC2, where they could not do so in BW. I think SC2 pros need to rid themselves of this one-dimensional approach and rather focus on developing their mechanical abilities. I have seen some tendencies of this, where it seems people have realized the potential of straight up outplaying their opponent, particularly in Zerg players for some reason (perhaps because they have faced the reality that the single army ball approach does not pay out in the long run, but can only be countered by more multi-dimensional and mechanics/strategy-intensive play).
I agree with you. In fact, what you are saying is pretty much how I understood the OP; there is potential in SC2 that haven’t been reached yet by the current top players.
Edit: spelling
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On May 13 2011 00:40 Oldern wrote:
Fun fact: after switching to SFIV, Daigo dominated the whole SFIV scene, kinda.
Fun fact 2: a year later, western pro players could get head to head with him, and while he is still one of the best, he IS beatable - and he did not look like beatable a year ago.
So is SFIV crap because SFIII is oh much more complex due to parry, and the skill level, omg? No, it is not : )
You can't compare the demographic of SF to SC. It's completely different and so even trying to relate them is irrational and doesn't lend itself to the discussion at hand.
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Wow intrigue. Incredible read. I absolutely agree with your opinions on the current competitive scene of SC2.
My greatest wish is for Brood War to continue to be played, as it is still loved by so many (myself included), but I must admit the last lines of your article made me shiver.
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EPT
