|
On May 12 2011 14:00 RabidSeagull wrote:
Really interesting post, can't help but agree about JD and Flash. I think it will be great for e-sports when that level of player moves from BW into SC2, increasing the competition for a game which clearly has a larger audience right now.
Larger audience for which game? I thought BW has larger audience now, the crowd in a regular SPL match is even larger than RO8 in GSL, let alone OSL or MSL.
|
|
|
This post was amazing. It was a true shock to the system that was extremely necessary, and something I've always had in the back of my mind but never thought about as in depth as this post is. Maybe there is a reason I still watch BW?
|
On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:Show nested quote +
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that?  I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats?
There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year.
|
On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post. Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!!
I love how when someone has some sort of argument against this sort of thing, the only response is exactly like this guy says or a snide insulting response. You are only furthering his point by being dismissive rather than responding to his concerns directly.
|
On May 13 2011 00:29 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:00 RabidSeagull wrote:
Really interesting post, can't help but agree about JD and Flash. I think it will be great for e-sports when that level of player moves from BW into SC2, increasing the competition for a game which clearly has a larger audience right now. Larger audience for which game? I thought BW has larger audience now, the crowd in a regular SPL match is even larger than RO8 in GSL, let alone OSL or MSL.
Worldwide audience.
|
Yes, S-level BW games are way more entertaining and on-the-edge than S-level SC2 games.
But the standard of SC2 can only improve in the long-run, while BW is doomed to die a slow death (very slow, I might add). Eventually we will see SC2 overtake BW's peak. BW elitism is not going to help it.
And by the way, I strongly disagree with lumping minesweeper, BW and checkers together. As a chess lover, I think it is an insult to top checkers players that it can be suggested that Flash and JD beat them easily at their game. Checkers, BW, and chess are all different games, even if they are concerned about strategy.
|
Good point on why Slayers has gotten so good so quickly. Boxer knows how to build a team and he brings that knowledge to SC2. I am sure the other teams will have to follow the Slayers model if they want to stay competitive.
HotBid made a much better conclusion than you and it would have been better you just left out your part. If it was true there are "300 semipros waiting to destroy the scene", you'd see guys like Killer doing better than they are, and all the other former BW pros. To be good at SC2 takes a lot of work too.
I have no doubt that if JD and Flash switch, they will become great. That is because they are stellar strategic players and decision makers. Its what sets them apart from their peers. What's the difference between Flash and Idra? Its not APM or practice hours.
Basing your argument on two guys who are basically prodigies is kind of silly.
|
On May 13 2011 00:18 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:17 goste wrote:
humm i thought this post was about sc2 players and the game and so on, but it's just full of BW stats. how does that relate to the topic of The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.? The game is almost one year old. Give it time... Especially for a game that was last updated in 2009, but released 13 years ago.
wait 12 years and see how it pans out. what?again the last real BW patch was in 2001,everything after that was just Battle.Net fixes and bug fixes.
don't overlook the exploit fixes in patch 1.16 in 2008 which fixed zerg gaining extra minerals by mutations, passing over impassable terrain, recycling, terrans nuking anywhere on the map. and a few others. but lets not focus on those small issues, let's focus on the main part: this post is about sc2. why bloat it out with pointless BW facts?
apples and oranges.
|
to sum up, dont watch tsl3 finals. its highschool football. am i right? :p
|
On May 12 2011 14:01 emecee wrote:Show nested quote +I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
this part does not make any sense whatsoever. i can just say there are thousands of people in the world that has the POTENTIAL to crush anyone in broodwar, and that just cheapens any form of competition i see.
But then your argument would have no evidence, or data to support it, but the author have relative evidence and data to support his point.
|
I would look at it differently than the author of the article. If you look at Brood War, all the ~top 50 players even before SC2 were Korean, but you might as well say that if the game was popular in Japan, the best players would be expected to be Japanese. Obviously the fact that there might be genuinely more talented people than Flash out there doesn't say anything about their talent.
The situation with the SC2 vs Brood War crossover is different though, since we know that there are a number of people that could switch over at any point and dominate the scene. I suppose this does mean it's a different comparison to make vs a hypothetical more talented player existing in, say, Japan.
Still, I think in some ways it's exactly the same, namely that you view the accomplishments of someone as less important, since their dominance is more ..random, not reflecting pure talent, more influenced by outside factors.
I would rather view it as follows: as long as a 'scene' is dominated by people whose gameplay is purely professional and a reflection of their hard work and incredible talent, nobody cares about some statistical analysis saying there are better players out there. In SC2 though, you can see quite plainly that the players at the top are still pretty bad compared to those that will dominate the scene in a few years, so in a certain way it does lessen the achievements of the top players. I mean, White-Ra is seen as one of the best players in the world at the moment, yet he's 30(?) and compared to any random Korean protoss A-teamer, he was just awful. So yeah, I suppose I do agree.
|
I was watching Day9 daily #1 recently for shits and giggles and i was mindblown. It was Flash against Hero. I can't wait for players like these to enter sc2 and blow my mind again in game i actually know at least a little bit about.
|
All I read was qq brood war is better. I'm sorry you feel like you should beat that dead horse some more. At least it was well formatted.
|
I do not like the condescending tone the OP takes when referring to SC2 players.
This is all speculation. July won his golden mouse when players like Flash Jaedong and Bisu were already in their prime.
Is he dominating Sc2? definitely not. People playing Sc2 are a lot more motivated than when they played SC1 becuase there are a lot more barriers to entry to SC1. Sc2 is much much more accessible at the competitive level.
Bottom line the main article has little to no actualy validity to it. It's purely based on logical flaws and assumptions.
|
On May 13 2011 00:32 taishiro wrote:
All I read was qq brood war is better. I'm sorry you feel like you should beat that dead horse some more. At least it was well formatted.
He's not saying bw is better only that bw players are much more skilled at RTS in general, a point that I would have to disagree on. They do have an advantage in the same way that a pro boxer has an advantage over a guy off the street learning MMA but that will only take them so far.
|
On May 13 2011 00:33 jacobmarlow wrote:
I do not like the condescending tone the OP takes when referring to SC2 players.
This is all speculation. July won his golden mouse when players like Flash Jaedong and Bisu were already in their prime.
Is he dominating Sc2? definitely not. People playing Sc2 are a lot more motivated than when they played SC1 becuase there are a lot more barriers to entry to SC1. Sc2 is much much more accessible at the competitive level.
Bottom line the main article has little to no actualy validity to it. It's purely based on logical flaws and assumptions.
july won his golden mouse by bashing bad protoss players in ever 2008 lol
|
I can only imagine that intrigue had a giant troll face plastered to his head as he wrote this article. The thread just seems to have the taste of bile, let alone the article itself.
|
I find it incredibly frustrating when I'm watching an SC2 game and see top players banking 500 or even 1k+ resources in the midgame with no battles going on. There's just absolutely no excuse for that. Or a recent NASL match where someone forgot their 3rd depot. It's not even top BW pros these players have to fear. Unless they start demanding much more from themselves they are going to be swept away by the next generation.
|
On May 13 2011 00:30 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that? I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats? There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year.
Come on
You act like the most skilled BW player wins every game. Flash was knocked out by CLASSIC and SSAK. JD has lost plenty of times. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information, so the best player WILL not win every time. There's too much variance in the game for that to happen, too much Clausewitzian friction, and THATS what makes it a good game to watch.
Chess is a game where the more skilled player will win nearly every time, and its as interesting as watching paint dry.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
