EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 84
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:58 mmdmmd wrote: It seems that to the OP, there are only 2 types of people, SC1 players and SC2 players. What about the "majority" here on TL that supports both game (or at least doesn't "hate" the other game)? I love both games, its just way harder to keep up on everything now. So many events, and no english commentary for the Korean leagues. I remember even for big OSL finals, the most we'd get is 4-5000 viewers on a livestream and if we were lucky, someone translating the commentators. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote: Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, ban the evidence!! FTFY ;] Back on topic, I doubt we'll ever see TBLS and the other top level BW players make it big on the SC2 scene. They will probably be amongst the last progamers to switch from BW to SC2, if at all, since their positions right now are just too lucrative to risk losing. BW won't die off for many a season to come, despite the dearth of new blood amongst the players and the fans. This gives SC2 at least a few years to develop its own breed of truly S-class players and S-class training environments, as the sheer money being pumped into SC2 can't do anything but drive up the competition. By the time the last guard of the BW scene feels tempted to switch to SC2, the SC2 barrier to entry will be too high for them to simply sweep everyone else aside and dominate. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51382 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:08 MiniRoman wrote: Good post. RTS in 3d is silly and distracting ;9~ ha,thats a new way of look at things. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:57 PHedemark wrote: So what you're basically saying is that Flash and JaeDong has something (I suspect it's raw talent, since everything else can be trained) that no one can fight against. It obviously isn't so. It's however quite ironic that while writing the biggest (and most one sided) SC2 rant in the history of the game, you discover the actual difference by chance. What the South Korean SC1 model is meant to do is to bring forth the players with an iron will. You say it yourself, most people never rise to the top, most players never get to play Pro League. So what the system does, is to filter out anyone but the few very determined players who can set everything else aside. Granted talent and other skillsets have an implication on it, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that a bigger part of the things you need to do to become a good SC1 player is to practice mechanisms. And that is highly trainable. I don't even want to go into the discussion about comparing players with 100 games to players with 500 games. That's just too dumb. To make analogy. Not everyone can go olympics,further win it. So why people even try? Article is not bashing players but rather twisted foreigners view on sc2 scene. I guess in Korea its crystal clear. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:03 Keype wrote: Wow that was an hell of an write-up !:D I really enjoyed reading it! I aggree to some extent and really feels the level of practice have really lowered .. a looot since ppl switched from bw to sc2. Even tho I have heard ppl like Idra saying their mechanics doesnt need that much practice in sc2, I still feel ppl isnt close to the level they could be if the practice would be as in bw. Agreed. I consistently see "pros" floating upwards of 1k minerals and almost equal amount of gas mid game, queuing up multiple units in the same production facility, missing warp-ins/larva injects/mules/letting chronoboost build up. Supply blocks happen all the time, sometimes for many minutes on end and I constantly see people throwing down 4 rax at the same time and then the casters calling them "macro monsters". That's not being a macro monster, that's called banking ludicrous amounts of minerals, noticing it and going on crap. So yeah, if "pros" can't even get those things right, they'll get crushed if SC pros switch over. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:03 BLinD-RawR wrote: its not the trio is actually 4 people theres stork in there too. I never understood TBLS, or at least it seems really outdated. It should just be LS. And it would be a treat to see Flash or Jaedong play SC2. If they can attain the same level of understanding of SC2 that they did in BW it would be beautiful to watch, unfortunately I don't see that happening until they're past their prime. Maybe SC2 will have an influx of people once the free agency period is over. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
Using that logic TheWind, SangHo, Tester, etc. should be better than MC, since they were better in BW. However, we all know that isn't true. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely BW pros that could transfer over and do well, but saying "X was better at BW, so he'll be better at SC2" is an extremely stupid thing to say. Kind of surprised something like this is on the front page. | ||
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jacobmarlow
Canada100 Posts
Saying a brood war player is superior to a starcraft player simply becuase broodwar requires more mechanics is like saying, someone who could operate windows 95 at a high level would surpass anyones ability to use windows 7. They are two different games plain and simple. | ||
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:09 Jyvblamo wrote: FTFY ;] This gives SC2 at least a few years to develop its own breed of truly S-class players and S-class training environments. But as the OP stated, there is a worrying trend that some of the current top sc2 players are practising less and less. | ||
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:59 Bluefish wrote: Korean sc2 is sort of like Japan for baseball; The top few players compete near the top level at the world scene (Ichiro, Matsui, etc), but overall the league does not have the number of top players that MLB in the US has. Korean sc2's top players, MC and I propose Bomber, can compete near or at the highest level in the world, but overall international tournaments have more players playing near the top level than GSL. No, no they do not. Idra couldn't even get past the round of 8. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:11 jacobmarlow wrote: Anyone who agrees with the article is brood war biased. I agree with Artosis 100% in saying the article is ignorant and comes to over simplified conclusions. Saying a brood war player is superior to a starcraft player simply becuase broodwar requires more mechanics is like saying, someone who could operate windows 95 at a high level would surpass anyones ability to use windows 7. They are two different games plain and simple. What a horrible analogy... | ||
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jacobmarlow
Canada100 Posts
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stratmatt
United States913 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:14 jacobmarlow wrote: I cannot wait until "top" bw players move over to Sc2 and get stomped just to shut up the OP. Just like WC3 fanboys believed Moon and Grubby would dominate SC2. It simply does not hold true that skills transfer over seemlessly. There are so many variables to consider such as a player's passion/motivation for the game for one. go back a page and read my post please  | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:43 ak1knight wrote: The variance in SC2 is just ridiculous though. Even I (a gold leaguer) could probably knock a game off Idra by cannon rushing or proxy 2 gate that he doesn't scout. In BW I could play a million games against Flash and not win once. SC2 players people consider the top in the world are dropping to up/downs in GSL, while players like Naniwa and Inca are getting to finals. Something like that rarely happens in BW. LOL, no. Even if you executed a non noob cannon rush(ie blocking his ramp) you wouldn't know how to cash in the advantage and besides if idra loses to an unscouted cheese that would only tell us that his scouting is crappy. Seriously, the variance in SC2 is not as bad as people make it seem. Even in BW the dominant players didn't have a super high 95% winrate on their careers because both games are games of imperfect information. And lets not get into the fact that the game is indeed more volatile due to the on going patching progress and new timmings still being discovered.Yeah the game is more volatile, but its not that much more volatile than BW. Hell, the good players in torunaments have been pretty consistent | ||
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1078 Posts
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Istvan
22 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:01 ak1knight wrote: A) Actually tons of people watch sports where a few teams dominate. In pretty much every soccer league in Europe there's no more than 5-6 teams you could pencil in as champions. In the NFL and NBA a select few generally dominate the league. The popularity of tennis went up when Federer was winning so much. B) Dominance does increase interest, because it creates storylines. Say someone has won 20 matches in a row, more people are going to watch because they want to see if that player could get knocked off. It also gets fans to start loving/hating players which increases general fandom. C) Builds like those are much more percentage based. If you can prevent scouting (or getting blind countered) you win, if you can't you lose. I agree there's some skill in coming up with the BO and executing, but there isn't enough skill to say it isn't a huge blunder when they mess it up. Code S is equivalent in some sense to UEFA champions league, because they deal with the best of the best. Inter Milan, AC Milan, Man Utd, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Porto, Arsenal, Liverpool and Bayern Munich are had pretty legit shots at the title for the past decade. That's more than just a few teams IMO. Dominance does not increase interest. Rivalry increases interest. What on earth are you saying with your point C? For example, I cannot conceive of any meaning behind "Builds like those are much more percentage based." | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:14 jacobmarlow wrote: I cannot wait until "top" bw players move over to Sc2 and get stomped just to shut up the OP. Just like WC3 fanboys believed Moon and Grubby would dominate SC2. It simply does not hold true that skills transfer over seemlessly. There are so many variables to consider such as a player's passion/motivation for the game for one. "non-top" bw players have moved over to SC2 and stomped the competition? Did you even read the OP? If "non-top" bw player can do it with subpar mechanics and game sense, I'm pretty damn sure "top" bw players can too. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51382 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:11 jacobmarlow wrote: Anyone who agrees with the article is brood war biased. I agree with Artosis 100% in saying the article is ignorant and comes to over simplified conclusions. Saying a brood war player is superior to a starcraft player simply becuase broodwar requires more mechanics is like saying, someone who could operate windows 95 at a high level would surpass anyones ability to use windows 7. They are two different games plain and simple. terrible terrible analogy. | ||
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