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No one seems to be mentioning that Starcraft 2 is really young. It's been around for a year now, and it already has some significant (relative to other games at similar points in development) tournament support. I mean, there are still timing attacks being developed. I know in TvP the reactor techlab concussive shells timing has been doing tons of damage, and it leads into a fast expansion. Clearly there are still avenues of the game which have not been explored (especially since many people in the community--notably idra--are acting like the game has been completely mined), not to mention the fact that there are two expansion packs for the game which have still not been released.
The virtues of Flash and Jaedong are by no means ineffective, as having thousands of hours of practice is no less valuable in a shifting metagame than in a settled one, but currently, creativity is the more valuable resource. I mean, TSL saw Thorzain pull off a TvP thor timing attack that was shaping up to be almost imbalanced (before new patch), and no one was using it until that point. It absolutely wrecked protoss standard play and there was nothing they could do about it, yet no one had used this attack competitively until a few weeks ago. The fact that a potentially imbalanced timing simply wasn't utilized is just one example of how young the game is as a game.
This is part of the reason that renowned foreign Brood War pros like Nony aren't showing the dominant tournament results, even within North America, that newer pros are. In Brood War, build orders had been mined to a T, and the "standard" build were timed out exquisitely to be stable under all the opponents pressures. This sort of "standard" play is pretty obviously missing from certain matchups (PvP, ZvZ, ZvT), but extremely creative Brood War players like Nony have been looking for these builds, and so these players come to tournaments with builds they think are stable, but some creative opponent (QXC and TLO are notable for being good at coming up with brutal timing attacks on the fly) crushes them with some attack they've never thought of before.
Now, this could be some "inherent" volatility to Starcraft 2, but if you think about the Brood War and vanilla Star Craft legacy, back when one base lurker was "standard," this period of violent metagame shifting rewarding greedy/cheesy play (see: MC) seems to be a part of a game's maturation.
My point is, that the elephant in the room is the fact that there are big money competitions for a game which is barely a year old.
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I don't know, I think a lot of the skills transfer over, but there are a lot of mechanics that are definately simplified for SC2. The big one being Hotkeys (multiple buildings, more than 12 units). This removes a bit of mechanical skill, sure, but that frees up more time for micro and positioning, the "tactical" parts of Starcraft.
I think this means that people with slightly lower mechanical skill, but better tactics and execution are going to perform better, while people who did well because of their mechanical skill in BW (switching around to queue up units, multiple group control) will find that that is not as large of an advantage.
Is this a good thing? Not necessarily. Is this a bad thing? Again, not necessarily. As people say, different games are different. Less time spent doing the mechanical, "repetitive" stuff means players get to focus more on their strategy, micro, and control. It brings out a different kind of player. Less of the type that can remember 100 things at once, and more of the kind that can remember a few fundamentals, but at the same time execute maneuvers and skilled play in a micro war.
Personally? I prefer SC2, but that doesn't mean I hate BW. I like the nicer graphics, I love the SC2 community, and I think there are some pretty interesting tactics in SC2 that are just waiting to be discovered. I also love BW, and when SC2 has more years to develop into as deep of a game, I think we'll see BW more phased out, as Blizzard intended.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit
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very good writeup. BW pros are just too happy with the cash. why switch?
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I agree with Intrigue and theres a few reasons why.
1. As he mentioned, Top BW progamers make a lot of money, switching to SC2 would seem pointless if money is important to them at all.
2. Mechanics are a lot harder in broodwar. Plain and simple, 12 units to a group, no automining, no multiple building selection. Anyone who argues against this is fighting a huge uphill battle. Because of this, I would argue that Flash and Jaedong could hold their top positions a little easier in BW than they would in SC2 because of how perfected their mechanics and multitasking are. I think other SC2 players would gain a bigger advantage from being able to select a ton of units and multiple buildings.
3. Anyone who has had experience in trying to climb the broodwar ladder ranks knows how difficult the game is. If you just recently joined TL and really haven't tried to play on ICCUP how can you really argue against what all these pros and veterans of the game are saying? Have a try at broodwar for a month on ICCUP and if you still feel its a different game and that it has no correlation with SC2 skills then at least you will have the experience to support your argument.
4. After seeing Nestea do so well in SC2, I had to think back to who he was in Broodwar. Zergbong, which as Intrigue said was basically the best ex-broodwar player. Even then compared to the other pros, he was very below average. Just goes back to what Intrigue was saying, most of the top Korean players in SC2 were below average broodwar players. Some of the top foreign players in SC2 now were indeed the best foreign broodwar gamers (disregarding the WC3 players for a moment) but compared to Korean broodwar gamers they were mediocre at best. The top ones imo were Idra, Ret, White-Ra and NoNy.
I love SC2 just as much as anyone else, its an extremely fun game and I barely find time to play broodwar now. But theres no way I will be saying "its a different game" and that the top broodwar players would not dominate if they switched over. I think Hot_Bid is even being too generous in saying "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch.". Theres nothing wrong with enjoying SC2 more than broodwar but trying to say these broodwar pros wouldn't dominate if they switched over is a joke at best.
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On May 13 2011 01:22 Derez wrote:Thanks for summarizing the entire article for people that haven't read it yet. Until one of the top BW pro's switches, this entire thread is nothing but speculation and its ruining the fragile peace between BW and SC2 on the forums  . How about some respect for both sides?
I feel the whole speculation is a bit misguided. It isn't as much as whether a BW pro will dominate the scene, but rather, the current SCII scene doesn't match the intensity of practice of the BW scene yet. The current SCII players are lacking the dedicated mindset that helped propel the BW pros to their high level status. It's just going to take a little time for that to change, and then the level of play of SCII will truly be very high.
I completely agree with the respect, I get sick each time reading all the hate from both sides. BW is not going to die off, not in the near future at least, but SCII is not a completely imperfect medium. I'm a huge fan of both, professionals from both inspire me to play better and just provide enjoyable games.
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On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
We see the clear Brood War Advantage© in action here. Their mechanics are honed and their instincts unerringly accurate. If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans. But if we look at the actual numbers behind their Brood War careers, it immediately becomes obvious that they were nobodies in their own scene.
I have never ever heard tasteless or artosis say anything of the sort. They said that MC was non existant in BW and said recently that Nestea was seen as abit of a joke during BW.
Also i dont think anyone has said jaedong or flash wouldnt be good at sc2.
I dont understand your point at all.
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Cool article but not sure why it's controversial?
Obviously guys who've practiced longer and harder for a much greater period at a much harder (but fairly similar) game will do better if they switch.
I get your point but it's never occurred to me not to enjoy the games as much because I am watching "b-teamers".
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Well I like (mostly liked) to watch different RTS games. If you actually believe what you wrote, no other RTS game will ever bring you joy as you always think that "the best" players play another game and thus it is boring. I also think that a lot of professional ski downhill athletes would also be really awesome at freestyle, but they chose not to. Does that make freestyle less interesting and competitive ? Not in my opinion.
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I agree with the article, but this is just stupid. This article serves no purpose.
What I think the point was:
a) educate the SC2 nubs who know nothing about BW?
b) be a buzzkill
Well if it's b then that's just ridiculous. But if it's a (which it probably is) then why in this way?
Why not just write an article on the history of BW, like about Oov and BoxeR and SavioR and NaDa. And about how all of them no where near what JD and Flash are today etc.
I just don't get why... there is NO point
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On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit
As explained in the OP, July and Nada were legends in their times but in 2010, they were just another mediocre A-team player. In 2010, MVP is better than July/Nada/Boxer. And unsurprisingly, in SC2 (2010/2011), MVP is still better than July/Nada/Boxer.
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I don't know what was the point of this article.
I liked but, isn't a general consensus that BW require more mechanics than SC2, even between SC2 players?
It's true that most of BW pros who switchover to SC2 will be better than average, but if you put it in that way on an article, the fight between BW elitist and SC2 players will become reach unacceptable levels..with silly argument from both parts.
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On May 13 2011 01:28 RushWifDietCoke wrote:
I love SC2 just as much as anyone else, its an extremely fun game and I barely find time to play broodwar now. But theres no way I will be saying "its a different game" and that the top broodwar players would not dominate if they switched over. I think Hot_Bid is even being too generous in saying "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch.". Theres nothing wrong with enjoying SC2 more than broodwar but trying to say these broodwar pros wouldn't dominate if they switched over is a joke at best.
WHO is doing this?
This thread has 90~ pages because the OP is basically insinuating that
1. Our SC2 competition is a joke because the players are baddies
2. It will always be a joke because BW has more money and fame, no reason for the "real" players to switch to SC2
3. I don't even want to watch SC2 because the players are not practicing 16 hours a day.
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On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit
The OP explains why old pros past their prime don't dominate the scene (although, keep in mind that they do pretty well considering).
Also, if you honestly believe that the only difference between TBLS and MVP is mechanics, you are clueless. BW is not only about mechanics.
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On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit
No YOU are terribly ignorant. Nada and Julyzerg were fucking terrible when they switched to SC2, July was basically on the team to give advice and Nada while being played every now was more on the level of MVP. And its RIGHT IN THE OP.
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I have to say, why do Brood War fans have to continue with this hostile dialogue? Looking at both forums, I never see SC2 fans come in to the BW forums and trash the game as "robot wars" or something like that, but you can constantly see notable names (Konadora comes to mind) come into SC2 forums and bash the shit out of the game. I just don't see the reason for all this hostility, besides resentment that SC2 is far more popular. If that's your reasoning, then jesus, grow up.
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@Blind-RawR
"Ultimate Flash Fanboy!| Afrotoss Fan #3|Start yo-Flash|I Support ACE and KT for R5 and R6,You know me as a huge KT Rolster fan anyway.| MYM.Mondragon,Playing Zerg the way its supposed to be played"
Nice quote there. I wonder why you agree with the article???? Im sure theres no bias there. Sc1 is an outdated game mainly being played in korea and in some parts of the world where people cannot afford to buy an non-pirated copy of Sc2 or a have a decent enough computer to run it. I completely understand where your coming from 
@chaoser - All your Teamliquid posts have been on non-star craft related topics (anime and manga threads), and on some random SC1 threads related Hite and Woojin allstars as well as the "Flash would do well in Sc2" thread. lol Not surprising that you would disagree with my POV. You are obviously not an avid player of SC2.
There are tons of people who were fans of SC1 that did not transfer over to SC2. I understand that, but it does not give you the right to belittle Sc2 players and assume that Sc1 players are better at a game they have yet to play. It's just not very smart. Btw I agree my analogy was bad. The point i was trying to make was that you can't say Sc1 players, simply becuase they are playing an outdated game that demands more mechanically would automatically be better in Sc2. SC2 is much less mechanically focused and is much more strategically focused. This and there are many many other variables to consider in the success of a progamer.
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On May 13 2011 01:28 LeonStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
We see the clear Brood War Advantage© in action here. Their mechanics are honed and their instincts unerringly accurate. If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans. But if we look at the actual numbers behind their Brood War careers, it immediately becomes obvious that they were nobodies in their own scene.
I have never ever heard tasteless or artosis say anything of the sort. They said that MC was non existant in BW and said recently that Nestea was seen as abit of a joke during BW. Also i dont think anyone has said jaedong or flash wouldnt be good at sc2. I dont understand your point at all.
Also talking about these statistics of for example MC doesn't say anything. He was crap at the start of the GSL too because he was having nerve issues and when he overcame that he destroyed everyone in GSL3. Hell look at SanZeniths transformation.
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On May 13 2011 01:00 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:54 Fleebenworth wrote:
I wish BW players would switch over so that this cult that surrounds the Korean game and BW scene in particular would be dispelled once and for all. No, because then the argument would be that their true mechanical skill and brilliant game sense were being clouded and masked by the simplicity of the game and interface. You would hear some people whining about how any noob can macro but in bw they would be worthless, and other people saying the game was fundamentally flawed in some way. I mean all it takes to beat Idra is to get off a lucky double-bunker of his ramp, in a "true" game the bw pros would never lose!
Einstein said: "Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserve."
The game has simple interface, yes. Many mechanic features are cut down and automated, yes. But it doesn't mean that the game is "dumb-down". I'd rather have a Prius to drive for me so that I can flirt with the girl passionately, than have to look at the road with 1 eye, and look at her with 1 eye. It's the same case. With less focusing on the mechanic parts of the games, players can focus on sharpening their game sense, their strategies,....
So it means BW's pro true mechanical skill is masked by the simplicity? No, the reason is simple. SC2 doesn't need heavy mechanical skill. Just like office workers doesn't need physical strength like construction workers. Different games will require different traits, and mechanic skills (as IdrA loves to whine) maybe not an important factor in SC2. You can love it, you can hate it, but that's how it is. We all choose our sports to watch, don't we?
And why worst pro BW players switch to SC2 and not good pro? For example, between a CEO and a normal officer, if they were asked to switch to a CEO job in a different firm.
Who do you think will most likely to switch? The office worker of course
Who do you think will have easier time to adapt to the new job? The CEO of course
But who do you think will have to work himself more to maintain the new job? The officer worker...
This means that even though pro BW will have much easier time to switch to SC2, they don't want to take a risk to switch to a new game and risk their current career. And while the bad pro players are eager to switch to a new game, if they don't work themselves harder than normal, they will fall behind greatly (maka, rainbow,....).
So between someone who doesn't want to take a risk to switch to a new game, or someone who doesn't have skill enough to stay with the old game, who is the coward, who is the opportunist? I think there's a faint line that we don't want to touch. In the end, it all boil down to practice.
There're CEOs that switch jobs and still maintain CEO, but there're CEOs that have no previous CEO's experience, just straight getting out of university, but giving it time, they will sharp themselves up and become even better than the aging CEOs. So give it time, maybe BW pro, such as Flash, JD will switch to SC2. Or maybe SC2 will give the audiences their own Flash, JD,.... We don't know, but that surely will happen one day, because it happened countless time in all other aspects of life.
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On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit
What about NaDa and Julyzerg? You know when their prime was? estimating, roughly 2003, although they've both remained somewhat consistent over the years they are by no means the top BW pros. They are both awesome, JulyZerg is in my top 3 favorite players but I didn't expect them to go and dominate SC2 like some of these other pros of today would. How are the stats just thrown up with no context? He clearly pointed out the stats of these players when playing broodwar (terrible win %) and how they all are winning the GSL and being the top SC2 gamers. It's sad that a SC2 elitist would come and try to throw BW under the bus after only joining the site last month.
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EPT
