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On May 13 2011 01:35 jacobmarlow wrote:
@Zeal
I just looked at your posts and you are once again someone who is clearly not an avid fan of SC2. You have over a thousand posts none of which are Sc2 related, so why do you have to come on this thread to shit on SC2 pros when you clearly do not know follow the game much yourself?
I watch NASL and GSL, bought tickets for both. And yes, I watch BW too. I like watching SC2 but its obvious the current pros aren't at the same level as BW players, anyone who watches BW would know that. How about you watch some pro BW and see what I'm talking about?
Edit: And wtf. I have over a 1000 posts and none of them are SC2 related?
*Clicks posts
*Ctrl+F NASL
Sigh...
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On May 13 2011 00:49 Kznn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:40 Oldern wrote:
Fun fact: after switching to SFIV, Daigo dominated the whole SFIV scene, kinda.
Fun fact 2: a year later, western pro players could get head to head with him, and while he is still one of the best, he IS beatable - and he did not look like beatable a year ago.
So is SFIV crap because SFIII is oh much more complex due to parry, and the skill level, omg? No, it is not : ) Thats a pretty funny point actually. Bw learing curves and mechanics are so much harder than sc2 that it's a matter of time till a lot of players reach such a high level that it's not really importat where you came from anymore. If flashes switches right now, of course he will domite. The same with bisu, jaedong, stork, and even fantasy best stats etc. BUT, the game is so young and so friendly welcome to new players and new pros that in a matter of 2 years or so, the skill gap between the bw pros and the sc2 players will be pretty much the same. It's so much easir to macro and to micro, speelcasters don't make that huge of a difference like they did in bw, so you don't really have to micro them that much. We will have to see. 
To me you can formulate the counter-argument that because the mechanical skill cap is so high and that there is a general lack of interest by new players to try and compete at that level is causing the level of competition in BW to STAGNATE. Didn't they cut out two teams, and some of the teams lost or seriously diminished the B teams?
Yes I took a stab at Broodwar pro scene, and I don't fully believe what I wrote since I still enjoy watching it, but at the same time you can't say that the competition to a game where Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of players are actively trying to figure out each day has crappy competition because the records of the players who are winning were bad in another game , or that a select few S class individuals haven't switched and that this handful of individuals would completely change the game.
I'm surprised this passes as an editorial seeing the initial premise is
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.
When a few pixels up is a timer to TSL3.
Edit: Before someone says something dumb like : oh you haven't read the entire thing. I have. Multiple times. However by bolding and sizing up a single statement, you essentially make sure that this is the main thing, if not the only thing most people will take home. Just like how I did with mine to the few people that will read my post. If that is the elephant you want most people to take home, then it's wrong, it doesn't make sense, or it is a very weak corrolation.
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On May 12 2011 14:58 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:46 moopie wrote:On May 12 2011 14:40 EchOne wrote:
Everyone plays 2 or 3 times that quickly, and even beyond that point faster players like by.hero don't perform as well as slower, smarter players like Stork. To be fair Stork's low APM works for him because he plays toss, it really wouldn't cut it as zerg. funny that you say that, because Stork's and Action's APMs are pretty similar (around 250-300). And Action is a practice house monster apparently
Not really sure where you're pulling this argument from, but Action's APM isn't low.
From his game vs Mind (Bacchus): 327 (avg), 438 (high), 186 (low).
From his game vs Shuttle (Korean Air S2): 321 (avg), 407 (high), 245 (low)
From his game vs fOrGG (Korean Air S2): 353 (avg), 434 (high), 259 (low).
I can keep going, but it seems pointless, like your apm comparison (unless if you meant that his low matches stork's average).
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:41 fearus wrote:
I actually completely disagree with the article aswell.
JD and Flash would perform better, the more difficult the game is and more demanding it is. Now that we all agree SC2 is a easier game, micro and macro wise, which ultimately hurts them and takes away their greatest strength.
Bisu on the other hand would clearly dominate but thats another story for another time.
oh the satire..so satirical.
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On May 13 2011 01:36 Zoler wrote:
This. The newschools have no idea how fucking high the level in SCBW is.
SC2 is childs play.
I've seen people get banned for saying this about BW...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:44 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:36 Zoler wrote:
This. The newschools have no idea how fucking high the level in SCBW is.
SC2 is childs play. I've seen people get banned for saying this about BW...
well,compared to BW it is true that SC2 is child play.
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You should see my cousin - he's awesome at video games. If he played BW Flash and Jaedong would get smashed. Therefore BW competition is a farce.
Terrible logic.
Just because the best people in the world (the ones with the most potential) arent playing a game doesnt make it a farce. Obviously there is undiscovered talent, and we could talk for ages about who would be great in sc2, but it's irrelevant.
I cant actually believe that the word "farce" was used to describe this. Maybe say something like "we havent even seen the potential of sc2 or sc2 players yet - there is still more to come" or something like that. Take a different approach to the topic. You took the "BW-players-are-much-better-than-SC2-players" approach. And while i dont think the article is offensive, it being on the fronpage of TL is kinda annoying.
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On May 13 2011 01:32 War Horse wrote:
I have to say, why do Brood War fans have to continue with this hostile dialogue? Looking at both forums, I never see SC2 fans come in to the BW forums and trash the game as "robot wars" or something like that, but you can constantly see notable names (Konadora comes to mind) come into SC2 forums and bash the shit out of the game. I just don't see the reason for all this hostility, besides resentment that SC2 is far more popular. If that's your reasoning, then jesus, grow up.
SC2 being far more popular is only true in the west. Globally (West+Korea), BW is more popular by far. There's a reason why the BW pro-scene can support a 80k salary for good players and a 200k salary for top players whereas only some SC2 teams get salaries at all.
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On May 13 2011 00:19 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:18 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 00:15 Hudlommen wrote:
Ï dont get this post. I understand what he says, but i dont understand why.
what is the final goal? bashing the pros we have in sc2, but what will it change?
Its like saying "the football pros in my contry are a farce, if you look at English football"
If people like local football, then let them. A local hero is worth just as much, for some people, as a star-player.
All in all, people love sc2, and they love the people whom* are the top of sc2.
If you dont like SC2 as it is for now, then watch SCBW, if you dont like that, play pokémon.
*My english aint that good, so if whom is terribly wrong, fuck it, it looks cool! what you don't understand is that it may seem like its bashing but the criticizim is 100% constructive. Please explain to me how everything in his post was constructive It shouldn't be hard if you thought through what you wrote before you posted it
And it shouldn't be hard if you read the OP before you posted... It has several quotes from progamers of SC2 and BW. Top SC2 players that left their team, just to get more free time, guemchi saying that they don't have such strict practice as he had in woongjin, while comparing them to Jaedong or Flash, who, according to coaches are insanely determined, and spend a lot of time to stay on top. Also he mentions the SlayerS clan, where they actually have a strict schedule, and are doing well because of it.
Basically everything was about how MC and others may be dominating now, but how their attitude won't let them dominate for a long period of time.
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On May 13 2011 01:46 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:44 Logros wrote:On May 13 2011 01:36 Zoler wrote:
This. The newschools have no idea how fucking high the level in SCBW is.
SC2 is childs play. I've seen people get banned for saying this about BW... well,compared to BW it is true that SC2 is child play.
Then get off this children's website?
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I really hate the "SC2 is a new game" argument to begin with.
It's like people who make that argument act like your suddenly going to completely relearn your mechanics and star sense. Not to mention that SC2 had a decade to build of from Brood War.
It's not like the games are 100% different like people are trying to make it
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Good write up, but anyone who doesn't already see this is in denial or uniformed
Gotta say though, you're delusional if you think there's gonna be a flood of BW pros coming into SC2. BW is a game which allows the best players to separate themselves from the weak players. SC2 takes away many of those things, but if I'm an A-class/S-class progamer, do you think I want to play the game that doesn't let my skill shine through as much? Not unless people stop watching BW (never).
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What a whine fest. I enjoy watching pros play because I enjoy playing the game. The game is fresh and new so its going to be constantly evolving and growing in both strategic terms and player skill. Korean pros arent the be-all end-all of starcraft competition anymore.
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I think the players treat the games completely differently, the mechanics of SC2 are much much lower than in BW and that was how a lot of games were determind by macro. SC2 is more a thinking game which is why so many new players have found sucess. Ofcourse the SC switchovers would do well but they would not start winning automatically, they would have to figure out stratergies and perfect them. Then if comes down to who counters who in composition more than who can keep a steady economy with amazing unit control.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:47 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:46 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 01:44 Logros wrote:On May 13 2011 01:36 Zoler wrote:
This. The newschools have no idea how fucking high the level in SCBW is.
SC2 is childs play. I've seen people get banned for saying this about BW... well,compared to BW it is true that SC2 is child play. Then get off this children's website?
hahaha question when was TL formed and What game was played when TL was formed?
I seem to be derailing the topic so if you want to continue this please take it to PMs.
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On May 13 2011 01:35 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:31 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 01:28 RushWifDietCoke wrote:
I love SC2 just as much as anyone else, its an extremely fun game and I barely find time to play broodwar now. But theres no way I will be saying "its a different game" and that the top broodwar players would not dominate if they switched over. I think Hot_Bid is even being too generous in saying "Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch.". Theres nothing wrong with enjoying SC2 more than broodwar but trying to say these broodwar pros wouldn't dominate if they switched over is a joke at best. WHO is doing this? This thread has 90~ pages because the OP is basically insinuating that 1. Our SC2 competition is a joke because the players are baddies 2. It will always be a joke because BW has more money and fame, no reason for the "real" players to switch to SC2 3. I don't even want to watch SC2 because the players are not practicing 16 hours a day. 1.undeniably true 2.the first half was harsh bu need ed to be said and yes there is no reason for the cream of the crop to switch. 3.a total misunderstanding.
The cream of the crop will never switch, for the reasons in OP. I'm sure Flash and Jaedong might consider switching 6 years from now if/when they're not earning 6 figures, but not at their prime.
The first SC2 bonjwa will have no progaming experience beyond SC2. It'll be someone who might've been the next Flash in BW, but chose instead to be the first himself in SC2.
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i don't understand what the arguing is about. brood war is the best rts. sc2 is quite good but brood war has had time and moneys and efforts put into it. TBLS are the best players of the best rts. they probably would dominate sc2. because sc2 is...you know...an rts.
however, i do understand that the tone of the article is a bit condescending. and it is true that bw and sc2 are different. but they are rts and require the same things to be good at it.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:35 RushWifDietCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit It's sad that a SC2 elitist would come and try to throw BW under the bus after only joining the site last month.
And what? Its called lurking. You think everyone signs up to TL the moment they start following StarCraft? truly laughable. Also, what you said doesn't even make sense. I didn't insult BW, nor did I show any elitism. I've followed the scene since 2006 I know enough about BW and SC2. What about you?
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On May 13 2011 01:47 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:46 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 01:44 Logros wrote:On May 13 2011 01:36 Zoler wrote:
This. The newschools have no idea how fucking high the level in SCBW is.
SC2 is childs play. I've seen people get banned for saying this about BW... well,compared to BW it is true that SC2 is child play. Then get off this children's website?
Please, let's just stop. Talking about this with respect to the article is one thing, continuing this line of conversation is just useless. There is no doubt that at this moment, the BW scene has professionals that are practicing harder than their SCII counterparts. But in a year or so, I believe this difference will level out to none, as SCII players (looking at SlayerS people in general) start to match the level of training that made BW pros so good.
And this is TeamLiquid, a site for both SC:BW and SCII.
Edit: AHHH Too slow with the typing. Thank you BLinD-RawR for invalidating my post D:
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On May 13 2011 01:00 Dystisis wrote:Show nested quote +So what you're basically saying is that Flash and JaeDong has something (I suspect it's raw talent, since everything else can be trained) that no one can fight against. It obviously isn't so. It's however quite ironic that while writing the biggest (and most one sided) SC2 rant in the history of the game, you discover the actual difference by chance.
What the South Korean SC1 model is meant to do is to bring forth the players with an iron will. You say it yourself, most people never rise to the top, most players never get to play Pro League. So what the system does, is to filter out anyone but the few very determined players who can set everything else aside. Granted talent and other skillsets have an implication on it, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that a bigger part of the things you need to do to become a good SC1 player is to practice mechanisms. And that is highly trainable. Where's your point? BW players practice a lot harder and more efficiently and organized than SC2 pros. That is a part of the point that is made in OP. Of course it is, to a large degree, trainable. This is part of the reason that BW top players are on a different level.
Did it strike you at any point while writing your comment, that the reason why the SC BW players practice harder, more effeciently and more organized is because that's how the the SC BW scene is set up. That's how the pro houses work. That's what they have to do to be pros. If Flash and JaeDong could train less, but still be amongst the best, would they practice 12-16 hours a day, or would they try to make an easy living?
The social and cultural mechanics that is embedded in playing SC BW (especially compared to SC2) in Korea is thoroughly ignored throughout the article, even though it is something which probably takes most of the credit for how extremely competitive that scene has grown.
- To make an example that Europeans understand, he is basically comparing European soccer with American soccer. The same logic applies. 300+ players would be able to rip the entire American soccer community apart, but this is mainly due to the fact that the training facilities, the skill of coaches and the overall needed effort to be amongst the best are at a lower grade in American soccer than in European soccer. Over time that difference would be erased and the level of American players would rise (atleast if we believe that the sport would be equally popular in both regions). Now just imagine that in eSport, where life cycles of players, teams, tournaments and such are usually less than 1/10 of traditional sports. It would probably take between 6-18 months for the best players to catch up - if the skills were directly portable.
If a large part of what makes a good (great, bonjwa, insert whatever you like here) SC BW player is trainable, then Flash and JD's probable domination would stem from their extreme dedication and determination (e.g more practice), not a godlike raw talent like the author of the article almost proposes. If it's trainable, then there are surely people who can reach that level (some faster than others) in the current SC2 community.
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EPT
