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On May 13 2011 01:51 Kznn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:46 Deadlyfish wrote:
I cant actually believe that the word "farce" was used to describe this. Maybe say something like "we havent even seen the potential of sc2 or sc2 players yet - there is still more to come" or something like that. Take a different approach to the topic. You took the "BW-players-are-much-better-than-SC2-players" approach. And while i dont think the article is offensive, it being on the fronpage of TL is kinda annoying. You know what scars me the most? sc2 is getting figure out pretty fast. Theres no such unit that people don't know how to use efficiently. Yeah, timmings and oppening builds are being created every day... but I don't see how the game could develop alot more. In bw we have units being used for the first time just recently (queens in zvt). maybe it's just me, but i'm a bit worried about the game state right now.
You know people keep bringing up Queens in ZvT like constantly whenever someone talks about BW and it's mentioned like all the time in this thread.
Can I just say, people might want to stop using that. I didn't play BW and when I hear these elitist BW players say like "omg it has taken 9 years for anyone to hit the Q button in a ZvT. BW is amazing!" it just makes you guys sound really really really REALLY stupid.
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Great article, intrigue. I never got into BW competitively because I had poor mechanics, but I still enjoy watching the skill involved in BW matches.
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11589 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:42 zev318 wrote:On May 13 2011 01:40 AlBundy wrote:I don't mean to flood this interesting topic in any way; however I'd like to commend Intrigue and other members for renewing & stirring up this everlasting and substantive debate; there are now 86 pages of really interesting comments to read  Kudos which is pretty hilarious, as in any other sc1 v sc2 threads, any flame wars was met with the ban hammer (or a big ass warning on top) and somehow this one is allowed to go on. Not if they are well-planned and well-executed. Surely you can see the difference between the two.
Well, I respectfully disagree that this thread was well-planned OR well-executed. Sure, it has some nice statistics and draws some conclusions based on them, but it doesn't actually say anything of substance about the play in SC2 vs. the play in BW. It isn't convincing enough to people that haven't seen BW, which is a large majority. So no, that's not good planning or execution; not at all.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
it's downright disgusting that someone has the audacity to call SC2 competition a farce. What a complete insult to the hundreds of pro's training every day to make a living off of this game, playing tournaments constantly and training as much as they can to become as great as they can. BW might be more competitive... I'll concede that right now, BW is more competitive, due to the years of training, refinement and discipline that have gone into the game. But that doesn't negate the competition that SC2 has.
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On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote:
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham?
What the f... Beckham? Really? There are like 17286345708163457862370846572345678023465 foorballlegends and you choose Beckham? Oh my :D
And I just want to add: Football would be nothing without the Legends that people look up to and try to play like them.
On May 13 2011 01:51 iceman. wrote:
You can make excuses for Nada, Boxer and July all day but you can't say with absolute certainty that the likes of Flash and Jaedong would completely dominate the SC2 scene if they switched. Starcraft 2 IS a different game, BW records shouldn't matter. Kas (former semi pro from wc3) dominated Nada (former "god" from BW) recently. 439-290 (60.22%) is just a number and I don't like that this article is so heavily based around them.
The day when these "superhumans" from BW switch and dominate the SC2 scene go ahead and yell "I told you so" but for now it is completely pointless to be upset about this and let it affect your enjoyment of SC2.
Oh dude, read the artice. Nada isn't a "former"-BW-God as Kas is a "former"-wc3 semipro. Nadas time was already 2 years over when he switched to sc2.
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On May 13 2011 01:55 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:51 MajorityofOne wrote:
I'm sure over 86 pages some pretty good points have been brought up about this, but I don't have time to go through this entire thread just to see if people have made this comment: calling SC2 competition a "farce" because there's a huge talent base for the game which isn't participating in it (SC:BW progamers) is the same as calling Lacrosse competition in Canada a "farce" because the best athletes inevitably play Hockey, or MLS competition a "farce" because the EPL has players ten times as good. I agree and that sentence in the original article really isn't acceptable.
I personally find this extremely silly to put on the front page of teamliquid, who has their very own pro team. It's demoting e-sports in general, discrediting achievements of great players, including many foreigners and kind of just a plain old bummer to read. I wish someone would do something about it, maybe make it spotlighted, but not on the damn front page to stir up shit.
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On May 13 2011 01:59 Maliris wrote:
it's downright disgusting that someone has the audacity to call SC2 competition a farce. What a complete insult to the hundreds of pro's training every day to make a living off of this game, playing tournaments constantly and training as much as they can to become as great as they can. BW might be more competitive... I'll concede that right now, BW is more competitive, due to the years of training, refinement and discipline that have gone into the game. But that doesn't negate the competition that SC2 has.
Yeah by his logic the TSL3 and the Liquid players are also a 'farce'.
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On May 13 2011 01:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:42 zev318 wrote:On May 13 2011 01:40 AlBundy wrote:I don't mean to flood this interesting topic in any way; however I'd like to commend Intrigue and other members for renewing & stirring up this everlasting and substantive debate; there are now 86 pages of really interesting comments to read Kudos which is pretty hilarious, as in any other sc1 v sc2 threads, any flame wars was met with the ban hammer (or a big ass warning on top) and somehow this one is allowed to go on. Not if they are well-planned and well-executed. Surely you can see the difference between the two.
Well, calling sc2 competition a farce and thus undermining the effort that these professionals put into the game in an eloquent fashion doesn't take away the fact that he still called them bad.
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On May 13 2011 01:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:42 zev318 wrote:On May 13 2011 01:40 AlBundy wrote:I don't mean to flood this interesting topic in any way; however I'd like to commend Intrigue and other members for renewing & stirring up this everlasting and substantive debate; there are now 86 pages of really interesting comments to read Kudos which is pretty hilarious, as in any other sc1 v sc2 threads, any flame wars was met with the ban hammer (or a big ass warning on top) and somehow this one is allowed to go on. Not if they are well-planned and well-executed. Surely you can see the difference between the two.
i supposed if u thought calling current sc2 competition shit and that sc2 has only gotten the bottomfeeders from BW is well-executed then i suppose its well-executed. sure he put it in well written sentences, but i dont see how that changes what he's trying to say.
like someone up there said, OP's main points are what is in bold.
sidenote: is it ok to call someone's mom a *****, if its well-planned and well-executed?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50608 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:51 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:49 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 01:47 Mailing wrote:On May 13 2011 01:46 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 01:44 Logros wrote:On May 13 2011 01:36 Zoler wrote:
This. The newschools have no idea how fucking high the level in SCBW is.
SC2 is childs play. I've seen people get banned for saying this about BW... well,compared to BW it is true that SC2 is child play. Then get off this children's website? hahaha question when was TL formed and What game was played when TL was formed? I seem to be derailing the topic so if you want to continue this please take it to PMs. But it is not off topic. It doesn't matter if the site was formed for BW, right now 90% of the online users are here for SC2. A game that is getting massive amounts of disrespect in this thread.
so what are you gonna do about it?
step it up then,show them whos boss,show what SC2 is capable of,its not just the pros job to lead the way its everyones contribution to make SC2 not be a disgrace to BW or TL(by TL I mean Intrigue).
this article and many other articles shows a lot of stuff that says what is wrong in SC2,you can either argue that they are wrong and waste time or you can accept and work it out.
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On May 13 2011 01:51 Kznn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:46 Deadlyfish wrote:
I cant actually believe that the word "farce" was used to describe this. Maybe say something like "we havent even seen the potential of sc2 or sc2 players yet - there is still more to come" or something like that. Take a different approach to the topic. You took the "BW-players-are-much-better-than-SC2-players" approach. And while i dont think the article is offensive, it being on the fronpage of TL is kinda annoying. You know what scars me the most? sc2 is getting figure out pretty fast. Theres no such unit that people don't know how to use efficiently.
Reapers.
Carriers.
Ultras are pretty rare.
Warp Prisms
Queens offensively
No one has a use for medivac energy upgrade (even though we see players with red marines and empty medivacs all the time).
How often do you see Seeker Missiles?
Even the best protosses in the world can't consistently put zealots in the front.
People are making MASSIVE mistakes, even in the GSL/TSL, and it's costing them games. No one's going to play brilliantly until people start playing competently. And if SlayerS players are practicing 40 games a day like BW players, we'll start seeing BW-level players soon enough.
And there won't be an SC2 bonjwa in 2011
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Interesting read, but I think the "current" SC2 pros and average players are being undervalued.
I agree that SC2 and BW contain many of the same game mechanics, strategies, ideas, philosophy, etc. So it is logical to think that when a BW pro moves into SC2 they will be comfortable enough to reach the top echelon of the game rapidly.
I think that what a lot of people are underestimating is that they would dominate the top of the SC2 world. The BW players practice day in and out to become the best. They skirmish, they learn, they teach, they inform. They however have been doing this for the past several years so of course they are the best of the best. On the same note is that not exactly what SC2 players are doing now? Are the pros not training to become the best of the best?
My point is that well SC2 pros may not be on the same level as BW pros, they will be given enough time. So even if all BW players switch to SC2 in "five years" I feel that it will be an even playing field sooner or later. Just because a player never played BW and immediately jumped into SC2 does not mean that given enough time and practice they would not be able to reach the top of the pro league.
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On May 13 2011 01:50 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:35 RushWifDietCoke wrote:On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit It's sad that a SC2 elitist would come and try to throw BW under the bus after only joining the site last month. And what? Its called lurking. You think everyone signs up to TL the moment they start following StarCraft? truly laughable. Also, what you said doesn't even make sense. I didn't insult BW, nor did I show any elitism. I've followed the scene since 2006 I know enough about BW and SC2. What about you?
I like how you only take one line of my entire post , delete everything else and only argue against that. Funny part is, that sentence was meant as ironic satire against your strawman argument against Intrigue (Calling him a BW elitist.). If you wish to continue the real debate in question, then respond with something against my arguement about JulyZerg and Nada and leave the personal attacks out of it. If "Also, what you said doesn't even make sense." is your response then lol, guess we're done here.
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On May 13 2011 01:55 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:51 MajorityofOne wrote:
I'm sure over 86 pages some pretty good points have been brought up about this, but I don't have time to go through this entire thread just to see if people have made this comment: calling SC2 competition a "farce" because there's a huge talent base for the game which isn't participating in it (SC:BW progamers) is the same as calling Lacrosse competition in Canada a "farce" because the best athletes inevitably play Hockey, or MLS competition a "farce" because the EPL has players ten times as good. I agree and that sentence in the original article really isn't acceptable.
I agree completely that calling the competition a farce really is wrong. Imagine if you were someone who puts all their time (I'm talking production) into SC2 competitions only to have them defined as a farce because there exist better players than who you have your league.
Having said that, I can not wait for players like Flash to come to SC2. In my opinion it is less about how bad the SC2 pro scene is now and more about how good it will be when the inevitable happens.
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As far as pure competition goes SC2 is absolutely BW lite right now. Lower tier players making less money in a game fewer people care about (in the nation that values play over coaching and typing /commercial). It's the MLS compared to the English Premiere League.
It doesn't mean SC2 isn't worth watching or is a terrible game or anything like that, but the players and skill needed is nowhere near BW so far
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5003 Posts
On May 12 2011 16:41 papery wrote:You really need to cite your sources. Show nested quote +MVP, on his move to SC2: This is the first time I've mentioned it, but I come from a very poor family. The 100,000,000 won prize GSL came out with had a big influence on my switch. I wanted to win, and I wanted to make money. I wanted to help my family out with my winnings. I speak Korean fluently and I just spent maybe 20 minutes looking for MVP saying anything at all regarding his family being poor. I found nothing. This must also be your own translation, because Google came up with nothing when I searched for that exact wording. I did, however, find MVP stating that: Show nested quote + "I did not quit Starcraft to play Starcraft 2. After retiring from Starcraft I thought about several things, and many close individuals gave me advice, and I finally made the decision to start in Starcraft 2" Source. I also found another article of MVP thanking his old coach from Woongjin Stars for convincing him to start in Starcraft 2 after he retired from Starcraft. Source. You also twisted his words around in your quote of his TSL interview. He states that Show nested quote +"I wasn't enjoying myself in Starcraft because of contract issues and because I had lost interest in the game from playing it for too long." and that in Starcraft 2 he wanted to "enjoy himself". He most definitely was not making light of the game as a whole. I disagree with so much of this article, for reasons already stated by other individuals, but as this is a matter of opinion, I don't think that it is anything to be fussed about. However, I can't stand for your misquoting a player's words to make a point. Edit: grammar
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=647442&category=103
Maybe, just maybe, there are sources that you're not familiar with? You said "Google came up with nothing", but then if you're fluent in Korean, then maybe you do realize this is from a Korean interview? How would you know the exact wording? Maybe it's not translated into english? Sounds like you disagree so much you're just trying to find bad angles to attack it.
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I'm satisfied with the article, except for one thing, that many have already mentioned; farce. It's demeaning and disrespectful.
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i will agree that some 'top' code s players dont really impress at all... anyone see jinro in the up and down matches?
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So... An entire article just to splatter your Flash fanboy juice all over the front page of TL and Starcraft fans? I've kept quiet on the BW vs SC2 nonsense for awhile, because the whole thing is a stupid debate that makes as much sense to me as various console fanboy flame wars. It's an ignorant debate that merely serves to divide our beloved e-sports(specifically Starcraft) community.
I'll preface by saying not all of this is directed at the OP, but to BW and SC2 elitists alike.
I still don't see the point OP was trying to make aside from "LOLOL SC2 Pros suck, flash + other bw playerz so gooood!" To that I ask: Who cares? The whole article is silly and irrelevant (aka garbage). I can't believe this guy would get the green light on an article that's only going to continue and heighten the BW vs SC2 flame-fest. Something that, as far as I'm aware, is frowned upon among general forum users. If anyone else wrote this, it would be locked almost immediately.
All this article said to me is "I'm really jealous that there are some new faces getting love and fan attention when they should be on their knees blowing the same old players. The ones with REAL skill! You know, the ones I like. It's not fair! Your pros suck compared to mine!"
Don't get me wrong, I'd never hate on BW because I grew up on it from the day SCvanilla was released like many of the other people here. I just never had the time to devote to, or interest in, melee games that others did. Frankly, as a kid, I was way more into UMS maps as were my friends in middle school. But I am happy that the BW scene is still going and has such amazing players. Now I'm playing SC2 and I love it just like I loved BW...though now I pretty much only play 1v1, 2v2 etc. Not so much on customs lol.
To be perfectly honest, I guess I'm just not a nostalgia whore like the OP. I mean, sure, it's great that there are still hardcore fans and players of a game from 1998, and to each their own.
So I'm sorry there's a new kid in the house to split attention with. I'm sorry that it can feel at times that BW has fallen behind in Western popularity (it's a bit sad to me too!) I am NOT sorry, however, that the community, the forum, and Starcraft heroes are all seeing new faces along with a huge influx of new fans/players. It's really a shame how jealous old school BW fans can be of these things. Even new school BW kids do this too, which in my eyes, is merely bandwagonist. I hate having it shoved in my face that one game is better than the other because of short man's complex and the warm fuzzy feelings you get when you think about that old game. It's not better, and neither is SC2.
I hate feeling like I can't access the BW part of the forum just because I am now primarily playing SC2. To be honest I'm certain the majority of people on both sides are level headed and not weird about which game is better... but there are elitists on both sides and that, in part, keeps me from ever accessing the BW forum sections. I'm sure it can be the same feeling for old-hat BW guys that come to the SC2 side and are subject to that news all over the website.
It's all a matter of opinion. Watch or don't watch, enjoy the new infant scene or don't. Dgaf. As with religious debates, it's very sad to see anyone trying to convince others that what they choose to follow is bad or wrong in some way(and that their particular views are the one true way).
TLDR: Meh. Come write an article when the mecha-streisand pros switch to SC2, (and I'll be very, very excited to see what they're capable of when they do switch) but until then: OP, get over yourself and your elitism. I love(d) Broodwar as much as I love SC2. Don't you even fucking try to make me or anyone else feel like what we choose to enjoy is lame or a "farce". That's what 10 year old kids do.
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On May 13 2011 01:51 Kznn wrote:
You know what scars me the most? sc2 is getting figure out pretty fast. Theres no such unit that people don't know how to use efficiently. Yeah, timmings and oppening builds are being created every day... but I don't see how the game could develop alot more.
Knowing with a certainty that it is impossible for anyone to exceed your own imagination. Must be nice to be that sure.
You will get hit hard through life if you base all your assumptions on everyone else having no more imagination or knowledge than you.
As seen in several games and history in general, that kind of statements has a tendency to be proven wrong.
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EPT
