EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 91
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
That said, I find it almost silly how many SC2 fans here don't think Jaedong/Flash would be absolutely insanely good at SC2 because it's a newer game that relies more heavily on "strategy," as if Flash and Jaedong don't come up with crazy new builds to trump each other every other week -- which is even harder in a more understood game, mind you. They're both absolute prodigies of timing, execution and strategy, all of which transfer over to SC2 cleanly, even if the most basic mechancs don't. SC2 is predicated by sloppy play because of how new it is, Jaedong and Flash are anti-sloppy and they'd both at the very least be top 5 players. I'm not sure how perfectly they could translate to it but they're not #1 in broodwar because of their mechanics (Otherwise By.Hero and Baby would be the best in BW, but they're just not as smart). | ||
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Kznn
Brazil9072 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:57 fraktoasters wrote: You know people keep bringing up Queens in ZvT like constantly whenever someone talks about BW and it's mentioned like all the time in this thread. Can I just say, people might want to stop using that. I didn't play BW and when I hear these elitist BW players say like "omg it has taken 9 years for anyone to hit the Q button in a ZvT. BW is amazing!" it just makes you guys sound really really really REALLY stupid. I'm sorry. I couldn't clarify my point in the right way. What I'm trying to say is that I don't see a lot of potential in sc2 Units. You know.. we have so few speelcasters that are really usefull. I know we have 2 more expansions to come and I really hope that blizzard works well in the new units. I really want sc2 to be a huge game like bw is. | ||
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Chvol
United States200 Posts
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Maliris
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:03 RushWifDietCoke wrote: I like how you only take one line of my entire post , delete everything else and only argue against that. Funny part is, that sentence was meant as ironic satire against your strawman argument against Intrigue (Calling him a BW elitist.). If you wish to continue the real debate in question, then respond with something against my arguement about JulyZerg and Nada and leave the personal attacks out of it. If "Also, what you said doesn't even make sense." is your response then lol, guess we're done here. Ah I'm sure it was irony my friend! NaDa and Julyzerg were exceptional players, the reason they became "generic A team pro's" was because their mechanics and macro had fell behind, due to the extreme demands of BW. Which is exactly what I said. How are you having difficulty comprehending that? Guess we're done here though, as you said. Thanks for conceding. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:01 BLinD-RawR wrote: so what are you gonna do about it? step it up then,show them whos boss,show what SC2 is capable of,its not just the pros job to lead the way its everyones contribution to make SC2 not be a disgrace to BW or TL(by TL I mean Intrigue). this article shows a lot of stuff that is wrong about SC2,you can either argue that they are wrong and waste time or you can accept and work it out. The article isn't really showing anything that's "wrong" with SC2, it's just saying that the SC2 pros aren't the same as BW pros, and calling it bad because of that. There's nothing about the metagame, there's nothing about strategies and depth. SC2 isn't as competitive right now because there hasn't been enough time for it to get that competitive. Imagine if they came up with a completely new sport and added it to the Olypmics. You'd see some great showings, but it wouldn't be "competitive" by any stretch of the word until people got better at it and learned how to play well. Also, the OP is pretty insulting to the progamers who started with and changed to SC2. You're calling them bad because they play a different game from the one you enjoy more, and for someone who gets posted on the front page, that's not how you should present yourself. It's degrading and bad for both communities. | ||
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GaryBrackett
Bulgaria106 Posts
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:59 Maliris wrote: it's downright disgusting that someone has the audacity to call SC2 competition a farce. What a complete insult to the hundreds of pro's training every day to make a living off of this game, playing tournaments constantly and training as much as they can to become as great as they can. BW might be more competitive... I'll concede that right now, BW is more competitive, due to the years of training, refinement and discipline that have gone into the game. But that doesn't negate the competition that SC2 has. Well, "farce" might be a bit strong, but I agree with Intrigue's choice here. You see, Sc2 has been out for more than 1 year now if you count the Beta. As an esports fan, I'm starting to get a bit impatient and frustrated. I've watched tons of tournaments from King of the Beta to TSL3, I've watched every GSL games, every dreamhack, every MLG, etc. I even try watch some smaller tournaments like go4sc2, craftcup you name it. And honestly, the level of competition does not seem to raise. I'm like "man what the fuck am I watching? How come these players win tournaments despite having average RTS skills?" No offense to top players but sometimes I feel that the competition is not very high... I don't blame the game, and that's where I somehow agree with Intrigue. Current top sc2 players are not setting the bar very high. | ||
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RHMVNovus
United States738 Posts
What’s your point? I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. This isn't a point. This is a restatement of the conclusion of the argument you had made. Regardless of how persuasive your argumentation is, this article doesn't have a point. It states that SC2 is bad because the players are bad. Okay. You argued that well. So... what? Am I just supposed to walk away from this article with the knowledge that Brood War is better? What am I, the reader, supposed to do? How am I to react to this? Is there any sort of call to action? You try to address what the point of this article is, but there isn't one. The bottom line is that this is venting. It's a well-constructed, well-evidenced vent to prove the truth of your assertion, but I leave this article with more questions than I came in with. | ||
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Leafs
Canada41 Posts
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:08 AlBundy wrote: Well, "farce" might be a bit strong, but I agree with Intrigue's choice here. You see, Sc2 has been out for more than 1 year now if you count the Beta. As an esports fan, I'm starting to get a bit impatient and frustrated. I've watched tons of tournaments from King of the Beta to TSL3, I've watched every GSL games, every dreamhack, every MLG, etc. I even try watch some smaller tournaments like go4sc2, craftcup you name it. And honestly, I'm like "man what the fuck am I watching? How come these players win tournaments despite having average RTS skills?" No offense to top players but sometimes I feel that the competition is not very high... I don't blame the game, and that's where I somehow agree with Intrigue. Current top sc2 players are not setting the bar very high. love the no offense usage. "guys you're fucking terrible.... no offense tho" | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:09 zev318 wrote: love the no offense usage. "guys you're fucking terrible.... no offense tho" That statement seems objective. Thus it seems appropriate to me. | ||
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StimedSheep
United States51 Posts
I do not come to this site to read biased garbage with lack luster data that has been biased to what the poster wants. When I come to the site to read the main articles I come to read factual unbiased articles about what is going on in the SC2 community or SC:BW community. I highly suggest you have an editorial section for this 'article'. Just my two cents. -StimedSheep | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
Auto-casting, auto-repair, auto-mining, I can see how any of these things could be argued against as dumbing the game down or reducing the skill cap or making certain things like defilers and old-school storm impossible to balance or something, but please consider how silly it makes you look to an outsider when you arguing against being able to select multiple buildings at once. | ||
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Tarot
Canada440 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:53 kardinal wrote: The only area in the world where BW's still alive is in korea. RTS players all over the world have en masse switched over. Thinking that BW is globally more popular than SC2 is just wishful thinking from an ever decreasing minority. The reason why korean BW players can pay the salaries they pay to the top players is because of korea's unique e-sports development with massive corporate sponsoring. And Korea esports is still the biggest. On gomtv.net IM vs Slayers finals viewers: 288,270 Semifinals Slayers vs Startale: 157,769 Semifinals IM vs TSL: 121,803 On Korea gomtv IM vs Slayers finals viewers: 921,149 Semifinals Slayers vs Startale: 345,420 Semifinals IM vs TSL: 149,720 And Korean BW is played more and has more viewers than SC2. Let's not overestimate how "big" SC2 is in the west. It's still has a little more to go before it beats Korea (alone) SC2 popularity, and a lot more to go before it beats Korea BW popularity. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
"Hey everyone, just wanted to remind you that BW pros are better! Thanks, bye." | ||
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Dansickle
177 Posts
Three hundred plus BW gamers won't come over and crash the entire SC2 scene for a number of reasons(for example, the fact that most of them are only marginally better at BW than many of the former BW pros currently playing SC2, thus making the extra time playing SC2 those players have giving them the edge), but I don't see "different games, different skillsets" as being one of them. Build orders and units are different, but the fundamental structure and style of play is unchanged. You are still trying to outmacro your opponent via expansions and sufficient production structures, scouting an opponent's build and striking a specific timing when said build is vulnerable, etc. It's just a matter of learning the specific ways of doing that in SC2. The mechanics are easier because of the technology, but the skills required to win are the largely the same. Now as to why many of the BW gamers don't swap over, beyond the contracts, looming military service for many and a proven structure for training and improvement, I think there's probably a social aspect to it as well. These guys have played together on teams and lived in the same house with them for upwards of years now. Many have become close friends and probably want to keep playing games with their friends, if nothing else. Overall, I think the article raised some good points, albeit with debatable support, and sparked what should've been an interesting discussion, but instead turned combative due to hardliners on both sides. | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:09 RHMVNovus wrote: This isn't a point. This is a restatement of the conclusion of the argument you had made. Regardless of how persuasive your argumentation is, this article doesn't have a point. It states that SC2 is bad because the players are bad. Okay. You argued that well. So... what? Am I just supposed to walk away from this article with the knowledge that Brood War is better? What am I, the reader, supposed to do? How am I to react to this? Is there any sort of call to action? You try to address what the point of this article is, but there isn't one. The bottom line is that this is venting. It's a well-constructed, well-evidenced vent to prove the truth of your assertion, but I leave this article with more questions than I came in with. his point is that he can not watch any minor league sport or high school or collegiate sport cause there are 8000 pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate that sport at any moment. among the 8000 group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn (think kobe/MJ/lebron in basketball). This knowledge cheapens any form of competition i see. hell maybe he can't even stand to watch BW player who are not as good as flash, just cause flash can come in and CRUSH THEM. at this point, i say, why dont u just fucking ONLY watch FLASH games and stop complaining about other players being so bad compared to so and so. did i do it right? | ||
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_awake_
196 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:52 War Horse wrote: No it isn't, because there are physical reasons why Kobe would score 100 every game vs women that's exactly the point  | ||
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RushWifDietCoke
United States488 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote: This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone. On May 13 2011 02:07 Maliris wrote: Ah I'm sure it was irony my friend! NaDa and Julyzerg were exceptional players, the reason they became "generic A team pro's" was because their mechanics and macro had fell behind, due to the extreme demands of BW. Which is exactly what I said. How are you having difficulty comprehending that? Guess we're done here though, as you said. Thanks for conceding. Looks like you answered your own question. "Which is exactly what I said" LOL, sounds more like exactly what I said. On May 13 2011 01:35 RushWifDietCoke wrote: What about NaDa and Julyzerg? You know when their prime was? estimating, roughly 2003, although they've both remained somewhat consistent over the years they are by no means the top BW pros. They are both awesome, JulyZerg is in my top 3 favorite players but I didn't expect them to go and dominate SC2 like some of these other pros of today would. | ||
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I know enough about BW and SC2. What about you?
