|
On May 13 2011 02:18 Sumsi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
That's a very long OP given how simplistic it is.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to remind you that BW pros are better! Thanks, bye." I think it's not just that. It's also a valid answer to all the people which hype the SC2 scene to a level it simply isn't at the moment, like certain commentators.
Maybe they'd like it to be though? Just because SC2 isn't at BW levels right now (why would it be? 1.5 years < ~11 years) doesn't mean it can't be. I'm sure even 5 years into it's release that BW wasn't at the level it is right now.
If you hype up a game, you get more players playing it, you get more people sponsoring it, and that raises the competitiveness of the game. No one expected SC2 to overtake BW in a week, and in fact they'll probably co-exist for a long time. Does that make one worse than the other? No, it just means that the scenes are completely different. Note: not game and gameplay, but the gaming communities for both are radically different.
|
On May 13 2011 02:18 Sumsi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
That's a very long OP given how simplistic it is.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to remind you that BW pros are better! Thanks, bye." I think it's not just that. It's also a valid answer to all the people which hype the SC2 scene to a level it simply isn't at the moment, like certain commentators.
Tournament coverage would be sooooo awesome if every paragraph began with, "Well these guys kind of suck, but like, I guess here's what happened." and every commentator emphasized -just- how bad every pro player is while talking about their decisions.
Hype is good, it's needed to help this grow.
|
On May 13 2011 02:21 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:17 RushWifDietCoke wrote:On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone. On May 13 2011 02:07 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 02:03 RushWifDietCoke wrote:On May 13 2011 01:50 Maliris wrote:On May 13 2011 01:35 RushWifDietCoke wrote:On May 13 2011 01:27 Maliris wrote:
This article is terribly ignorant. Just throwing up a bunch of stats with no context whatsoever. What about NaDa and Julyzerg? Why are they not dominating everyone and everything effortlessly? Modern BW pro's rely on their exceptional macro and mechanics which are diluted in SC2, they would probably be an MVP/Nestea level player, but they won't just destroy everyone.
Sad that a BW elitist felt like writing something like this on TL... i agree with Doa, Artosis, and the hundreds of other people that think this is a load of shit It's sad that a SC2 elitist would come and try to throw BW under the bus after only joining the site last month. And what? Its called lurking. You think everyone signs up to TL the moment they start following StarCraft? truly laughable. Also, what you said doesn't even make sense. I didn't insult BW, nor did I show any elitism. I've followed the scene since 2006  I know enough about BW and SC2. What about you? I like how you only take one line of my entire post , delete everything else and only argue against that. Funny part is, that sentence was meant as ironic satire against your strawman argument against Intrigue (Calling him a BW elitist.). If you wish to continue the real debate in question, then respond with something against my arguement about JulyZerg and Nada and leave the personal attacks out of it. If "Also, what you said doesn't even make sense." is your response then lol, guess we're done here. Ah I'm sure it was irony my friend! NaDa and Julyzerg were exceptional players, the reason they became "generic A team pro's" was because their mechanics and macro had fell behind, due to the extreme demands of BW. Which is exactly what I said. How are you having difficulty comprehending that? Guess we're done here though, as you said. Thanks for conceding. Looks like you answered your own question. "Which is exactly what I said" LOL, sounds more like exactly what I said. On May 13 2011 01:35 RushWifDietCoke wrote:
What about NaDa and Julyzerg? You know when their prime was? estimating, roughly 2003, although they've both remained somewhat consistent over the years they are by no means the top BW pros. They are both awesome, JulyZerg is in my top 3 favorite players but I didn't expect them to go and dominate SC2 like some of these other pros of today would. Haha what? How about you read the rest of my post? it was a RHETORICAL question, I expanded upon it Whats your point buddy? Please stop embarassing yourself
You're right, I'm going to stop embarrassing myself by arguing with a troll.
On a related note, Good article as always Intrigue. Comparring successes in bw to sc2 was a pretty convicing way of getting the point across.
|
On May 13 2011 02:22 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:18 Sumsi wrote:On May 13 2011 02:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
That's a very long OP given how simplistic it is.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to remind you that BW pros are better! Thanks, bye." I think it's not just that. It's also a valid answer to all the people which hype the SC2 scene to a level it simply isn't at the moment, like certain commentators. Aren't commentators SUPPOSED to hype the game they are commentating? I don't blame them for doing it. If you work as a commentator for the GSL you hype the game you are paid for commentating.
|
What interested me the most is about the training of the players. BW excellent players such as Flash seem to practice extremely hard, with a program set by the manager, etc...
And training in SC2 looks more about makin' some ladder games and customs with mates. That's why SlayerS team has been so successful in GSTL, because they used a training shedule similar to the one used in BW.
That's why BW pros can make very well in SC2, the game is only 1 year old, and they know exactly how to train, they could have a manager behind them to list all the possible builds they may practice hundreds of time each.
I think we have to understand the "elephant" by "they are winning machines".
|
Did I miss something?
Where did the OP say "BW is better than SC2"?
|
On May 13 2011 02:25 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:18 Sumsi wrote:On May 13 2011 02:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
That's a very long OP given how simplistic it is.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to remind you that BW pros are better! Thanks, bye." I think it's not just that. It's also a valid answer to all the people which hype the SC2 scene to a level it simply isn't at the moment, like certain commentators. Tournament coverage would be sooooo awesome if every paragraph began with, "Well these guys kind of suck, but like, I guess here's what happened." and every commentator emphasized -just- how bad every pro player is while talking about their decisions.
I'm pretty sure the first Code A tournament was like that. Snarf!
|
On May 13 2011 02:08 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:59 Maliris wrote:
it's downright disgusting that someone has the audacity to call SC2 competition a farce. What a complete insult to the hundreds of pro's training every day to make a living off of this game, playing tournaments constantly and training as much as they can to become as great as they can. BW might be more competitive... I'll concede that right now, BW is more competitive, due to the years of training, refinement and discipline that have gone into the game. But that doesn't negate the competition that SC2 has. Well, "farce" might be a bit strong, but I agree with Intrigue's choice here. You see, Sc2 has been out for more than 1 year now if you count the Beta. As an esports fan, I'm starting to get a bit impatient and frustrated. I've watched tons of tournaments from King of the Beta to TSL3, I've watched every GSL games, every dreamhack, every MLG, etc. I even try watch some smaller tournaments like go4sc2, craftcup you name it. And honestly, the level of competition does not seem to raise. I'm like "man what the fuck am I watching? How come these players win tournaments despite having average RTS skills?" No offense to top players but sometimes I feel that the competition is not very high... I don't blame the game, and that's where I somehow agree with Intrigue. Current top sc2 players are not setting the bar very high.
You don't think the level of competition has rised? Seriously? I mean its your opinion but seeing Beta games vs last year games vs current games I can see that the skill has improved a lot, hell even the general ladder skill level has rised slightly IMO.
And as I have said numerous times in this thread, I think that eventually some players will start taking the practice more seriously and the others will have to adapt or die.
|
hahahha @ sniverty spot on
|
I wasn't into BW, but since I kept hearing their names, I decided to see what all the fuss was concerning Flash, Bisu, and Jeadong. After watching their matches, I can totally understand why many BW stalwarts aren't super wowed by the current reigning SC2 champs. Yes, they concede that there is a lot of skill in SC2, but the question is: Is there skill at the level of Flash, Bisu and Jeadong? I don't think so...at least not yet. I'm really hoping the BW legends make the leap to SC2 soon. I'd love to see what they come up with.
|
On May 13 2011 02:25 -Zoda- wrote:
What interested me the most is about the training of the players. BW excellent players such as Flash seem to practice extremely hard, with a program set by the manager, etc...
And training in SC2 looks more about makin' some ladder games and customs with mates. That's why SlayerS team has been so successful in GSTL, because they used a training shedule similar to the one used in BW.
That's why BW pros can make very well in SC2, the game is only 1 year old, and they know exactly how to train, they could have a manager behind them to list all the possible builds they may practice hundreds of time each.
I think we have to understand the "elephant" by "they are winning machines".
How can intrigue bitch that SC2 professionals do not practice hard enough when they don't need to?
NesTea, MVP, MC, etc all keep consistent (70+% win rates, akin to Flash) results.
Why should they throw their lives away to gain that extra 5% when they are making good money as is?
UNTIL these brood war professionals switch over, there is no incentive to play like robots (yet).
|
On May 13 2011 02:25 archangel967 wrote:
Did I miss something?
Where did the OP say "BW is better than SC2"?
Verbatim? Not in those words but that's what the entire post was about, did you read it?
|
United States22883 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:20 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:09 Leafs wrote:
Kind of a silly article - if the telecom companies paid out 200k a year for sc2, they would switch. Follow the money, its pretty simple. That's the point. Athletes go to the sports that pay them the best. That's why the NFL in North America gets the cream of the crop of physically big athletes and a sport like MMA has borderline pathetic "athletes" in the heavyweight class Same for progaming. Top players play BW because there's money and there's interest. Similarly SC2 doesn't have the money so it doesn't have the talent. It is a simple concept, but there's also this behemoth vitriolic thread so clearly it needs to be pointed out
Except the money in BW doesn't exist if you're not S Class.
How many times have we heard about the servant like work schedule of B teamers? If MC could switch and become the best in the world, instantly earning more than most B teamers will make in 5 years, don't you think more would've switched?
I don't see why you can suddenly abandon the money argument when it comes to July, NaDa and Boxer. For everyone else, it's only about money. For these three people, it's only about finding something new? That seems ridiculous to me. Plus there's a lot of people in that caliber of player. Maybe they weren't champions like those three, but they were damn good at their time and could be considered intelligent players. If it's that easy for someone like Boxer or NaDa to switch, even at their low relative skill level, why don't other retired BW veterans switch over? Why haven't Goodfriend or GGPlay or ChoJJa or Zeus started playing?
|
theres definitely money in brood war if you arent s class
|
On May 13 2011 02:28 awwnuts07 wrote:
I wasn't into BW, but since I kept hearing their names, I decided to see what all the fuss was concerning Flash, Bisu, and Jeadong. After watching their matches, I can totally understand why many BW stalwarts aren't super wowed by the current reigning SC2 champs. Yes, they concede that there is a lot of skill in SC2, but the question is: Is there skill at the level of Flash, Bisu and Jeadong? I don't think so...at least not yet. I'm really hoping the BW legends make the leap to SC2 soon. I'd love to see what they come up with.
Except you are placing too much emphasis on the individuals. Legends come and go. Boxer is a legend, but I'm not excited to watch him play SC2.
SC2 is too young to have legends. If the game is popular as long as BW was, then it's only a matter of time. It's completely pointless to lament the faults of a game that is a year old.
|
On May 13 2011 02:28 awwnuts07 wrote:
I wasn't into BW, but since I kept hearing their names, I decided to see what all the fuss was concerning Flash, Bisu, and Jeadong. After watching their matches, I can totally understand why many BW stalwarts aren't super wowed by the current reigning SC2 champs. Yes, they concede that there is a lot of skill in SC2, but the question is: Is there skill at the level of Flash, Bisu and Jeadong? I don't think so...at least not yet. I'm really hoping the BW legends make the leap to SC2 soon. I'd love to see what they come up with.
I doubt many people will argue that people in sc2 are on the level of Bisu, Flash, Jaedong. But the article basically says sc2 players suck, sc2 competition is a farce, and anyone in the top 300 of bw could smash current sc2 players and that's what they have an issue with.
|
On May 13 2011 02:29 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:25 archangel967 wrote:
Did I miss something?
Where did the OP say "BW is better than SC2"? Verbatim? Not in those words but that's what the entire post was about, did you read it?
Yeah. Did you?
Not once does the OP try to state that one game is better than another. He simply focuses on the players and the current state of competition in each.
|
Ofc the bw pro's are way better..everyone with any knowledge about BW knows this is a fact. But the Sc2 scene will grow in time. Sc2 is a bit random now. You can lose to a waaaaay worse player easily.
The game needs years of consolidating and work.
|
On May 13 2011 02:28 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:25 -Zoda- wrote:
What interested me the most is about the training of the players. BW excellent players such as Flash seem to practice extremely hard, with a program set by the manager, etc...
And training in SC2 looks more about makin' some ladder games and customs with mates. That's why SlayerS team has been so successful in GSTL, because they used a training shedule similar to the one used in BW.
That's why BW pros can make very well in SC2, the game is only 1 year old, and they know exactly how to train, they could have a manager behind them to list all the possible builds they may practice hundreds of time each.
I think we have to understand the "elephant" by "they are winning machines". How can intrigue bitch that SC2 professionals do not practice hard enough when they don't need to? NesTea, MVP, MC, etc all keep consistent (70+% win rates, akin to Flash) results. Why should they throw their lives away to gain that extra 5% when they are making good money as is? UNTIL these brood war professionals switch over, there is no incentive to play like robots (yet).
If it's true that they don't practice all the time(which I don't believe it is, just that they don't practice in the same rigorous structure as BW players on teams), then it just shows that they aren't putting the effort in to be the best and put on the best games for the viewers. Again, I don't believe this is what's happening, just that to be great, players have to be self-driven to constantly practice and improve themselves, even if they win 100% of their games.
|
Flash, Jd and the other untouchables absolutely have to play sc2 for it to be legitimized. Will it be fun and competitive without them? Of course it will be - we're dealing with relative levels of skill in every mu, so sc2 can always be exciting. But the difference to the BW scene is that history will remember the JDs and Flash's and what they did because they were the most skilled of a generation, and thus BW be remembered as their platform.
I don't buy the different game argument, the OP stated it well: Flash and JD are too good for the differences between sc2 and bw to matter. They'll just pick it up and dominate. I think the question is not who is the best sc2 or bw player is, but ultimately "Who is the best rts player?"
I think this topic is aptly put in terms of mma, or ufc. Some random dude can be the best welterweight in his country and there's no reason not to be proud of him, he could fight all around the world and never lose. Is he a great fighter? Sure.. World class? Of course.. But noone cares, or will talk about him seriously, until he's beaten GSP. His skillset is meaningless, and his accolades have no value until he's beaten the best of the best and until then he's just the newest champion of the losers.
So for me it isn't so much whether sc2 is a good "sport" or not, its that we're unequivocally obsessing over the minor leagues, or under18s of the rts world. For sc2 to legitimately become the arena of "pros" we need the "pros" playing.
I don't think I added too much to the OP, but I agree and I guess wanted to add in another perspective because there's obviously a lot of disagreement here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
