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On May 13 2011 02:23 NinMarth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:18 Sumsi wrote:On May 13 2011 02:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
That's a very long OP given how simplistic it is.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to remind you that BW pros are better! Thanks, bye." I think it's not just that. It's also a valid answer to all the people which hype the SC2 scene to a level it simply isn't at the moment, like certain commentators. i totally agree. it's really bad that commentators try to make games interesting and to entertain the viewers. who wants that? the commentators should tell us how much everyone of the players suck and that it's a total waste of time to even watch them. ... I would prefer more diplomatic terms like "Nestea was a former solid BW progamer".
But if you can live with almost comical hype, good for you.
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This is a load of barnacles.
The day a SC2 progamer can play full time without dying of starvation will be the day new faces will arrive.
If Flash and Bisu and Jaedong could dominate even though people like Savior, Nada, Boxer, Oov, and other were already playing, then it is entirely possible for someone completely new to SC2 to level up and dominate.
All the above players needed was a passion for the game and the will to pratice and prevail. Look it up, the moment Flash became bonjwa was his downfall, because he started to underestimate his oponents. Even God Young Ho has to pratice like a beast if he wants to keep up with new players like Reality, for example.
TL;DR = I disagree with your entire post and in my personal opinion you couldnt be more wrong.
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flash hasn't proved anything in starcraft 2, and to be perfectly honest, i think he would get smashed. starcraft 2 is a very unique game which i love.
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While I do agree that this may have been phrased somewhat harshly, I just have to note that Flash and Jaedong are UN-FRICKIN'-BELIEVABLE. I have yet to have a "wtf?... but... but... how?!" moment in SC2 (which I follow at the highest levels) like I have with the S-Class of BW pros (Stork and Bisu in form, Flash and Jaedong always).
... But the SC2 scene is so young. BW in it's first two years had a pro-scene with players that by today's standards would be considered weak, it took years for the pros to figure out every nook and cranny in the game and turn it into the intense battle of skill and brains it is today. Give SC2 a few years (not as long as BW, it is already building on BW's success). It will need a generation of players who grew up admiring the likes of MC and have been living and breathing the game since forever to really start reaching a level unattainable by mortals. Still, it's not a farce, not more than the pre-boxer pro-scene was.
edit: famous study: it takes about 10000 hours of practice in order to be considered a "master" at something. It has not been 10000 hours since the start of beta of SC2. This is what I meant by the next generation of players.
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On May 13 2011 02:45 ZergMaestro wrote:The best sc2 players are still playing brood war.  word up.
They're still in gold league, experimenting, practicing, and getting ready to suddenly appear in a year or two and crush everyone.
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On May 13 2011 02:40 hmmm... wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. i understand it's your opinion but when you say sc2 is better than bw because of the graphics, HAHAHAH
i didnt say better, i said more entertaining to watch... but i do think sc2 is the better game, just not as polished balance wise, and not as mined out as bw. i try so hard to watch these bw games with flash and jaedong and i just dont care. looks so lame. i used to play bw a loooong time ago but switched to other newer games because its straight up OLD. you really think yungns in korea who are just getting into starcraft are gonna opt for bw over sc2? really? you really think bw is gonna last another 10,20,30 years?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51382 Posts
On May 13 2011 02:43 I)etox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP Yep. But man he's got a point, I really like collosus micro as opposed to dropship + reaver micro. Watching collosus move back and forth is way more exciting.
O_O
I am amazed,but your argument is slightly better than this,but.......
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I'd like to take a moment to point out how quickly this thread blew up. Wow. I knew it would get a reaction but this is pretty intense. Moreover, it's pretty cool to see so many people with an opinion on something like this.
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On May 13 2011 02:37 MiniRoman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:40 ZeaL. wrote:On May 13 2011 01:33 jacobmarlow wrote:@Blind-RawR "Ultimate Flash Fanboy!| Afrotoss Fan #3|Start yo-Flash|I Support ACE and KT for R5 and R6,You know me as a huge KT Rolster fan anyway.| MYM.Mondragon,Playing Zerg the way its supposed to be played" Nice quote there. I wonder why you agree with the article???? Im sure theres no bias there. Sc1 is an outdated game mainly being played in korea and in some parts of the world where people cannot afford to buy an non-pirated copy of Sc2 or a have a decent enough computer to run it. I completely understand where your coming from  @chaoser - All your Teamliquid posts have been on non-star craft related topics (anime and manga threads), and on some random SC1 threads related Hite and Woojin allstars as well as the "Flash would do well in Sc2" thread. lol Not surprising that you would disagree with my POV. You are obviously not an avid player of SC2. There are tons of people who were fans of SC1 that did not transfer over to SC2. I understand that, but it does not give you the right to belittle Sc2 players and assume that Sc1 players are better at a game they have yet to play. It's just not very smart. Btw I agree my analogy was bad. The point i was trying to make was that you can't say Sc1 players, simply becuase they are playing an outdated game that demands more mechanically would automatically be better in Sc2. SC2 is much less mechanically focused and is much more strategically focused. This and there are many many other variables to consider in the success of a progamer. As has been mentioned before, SC1 is more mechanically demanding but that doesn't mean that that there is no strategy. By.hero maxes at 500 APM and he's pretty mediocre. Stork is relatively slow in the low 200's but is considered one of the best players still around. Saying that mechanics is everything just shows that you have no idea what pro BW is like. At the very top all the players are pretty damn mechanically sound (except for Fantasy's bio) so what separates them is their ability to read their opponents and prepare strategies, kinda like in SC2. Ya when people talk about SC2 easy mechanics as room for their "game sense and strategy" to grow its basically just all bullshit. Think BW got no game sense or strategy cuz its just a mindless click fest? Our ugly AI units and dangerous enemies make constant map awareness and battle micro and tactial positioning sooooo sooooo key. 500apm..... wow. 300 is 5 clicks a second every second for the whole game. 500APM is??? BW. What are pro sc2 players? like 200 including some bw spamming from the past? And before anyone says: "APM =! skill!" go try to play 200+ without pure spam next game. Can't do it? No, it's an acquired skill. 200+ is barely breaking the min requirment too be a great BW player.
sc2 apmis different from BW apm. sc2 apm = clicks per 0.7 second, while BW apm = clicks per 1.0 second. Thus 350 sc2 apm = 500 BW apm.
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The thing is not everyone is good at video games. Like me I practice and practice and practice playing counter-strike source but I can never get a 2 to 1 kill ratio or 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 at that matter which annoys me. I'm extremely competitive but constant practice doesn't seem to work for some and in fact can hurt there ability to get better at a game. I practice a ton but never seem to improve which is the most damn frustrating thing in the world for me.
I hate losing and it just gets me mad the more I lose and with that I lose focus it doesn't matter that I notice this its something to do with the chemicals in my brain that affect in this way and with that it could also affect my ability to improve. Genetics do play a huge role on how one performs in life and when one has better genetics over the other gives them a huge advantage regardless of anything else.
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On May 13 2011 02:45 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP To be fair, he is correct in saying that SC2 is much more enjoyable (on the whole) from a spectator's standpoint. It is much prettier, there are more observer options, and for the most part, it is more understandable for people who aren't players themselves. I watch SC2 tournaments with my friends and roommates, and we all get together to watch Funday Mondays. If I tried to sit them down to watch the grainy, dim BW games, they'd lose interest immediately. From the standpoint of making the game a spectator sport, SC2 is likely the stronger contender. And yes, making it more spectator-friendly is a good thing. More spectators means more coverage, more money for the pros, and making e-sports a legitimate past-time. I'd love to see the day when, say, MLG has a spot on ESPN or another well known and respected channel and watching Starcraft matches won't make me a social outcast.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong. BW is definitely the superior spectator sport. The tension created between the units is incredible high, stuff like reavers + shuttle micro, scourge vs. dropships, spider mines and siege tank lines, etc. What does SC2 have that has high tension? Everyone says marine splitting vs. banelings but bio splits vs. lurkers was already standard in bw. The only thing sc2 has on bw is better graphics and a friendlier observer interface (<-- speaking in terms of qualities as a spectator sport).
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On May 13 2011 02:49 bearhug wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:37 MiniRoman wrote:On May 13 2011 01:40 ZeaL. wrote:On May 13 2011 01:33 jacobmarlow wrote:@Blind-RawR "Ultimate Flash Fanboy!| Afrotoss Fan #3|Start yo-Flash|I Support ACE and KT for R5 and R6,You know me as a huge KT Rolster fan anyway.| MYM.Mondragon,Playing Zerg the way its supposed to be played" Nice quote there. I wonder why you agree with the article???? Im sure theres no bias there. Sc1 is an outdated game mainly being played in korea and in some parts of the world where people cannot afford to buy an non-pirated copy of Sc2 or a have a decent enough computer to run it. I completely understand where your coming from @chaoser - All your Teamliquid posts have been on non-star craft related topics (anime and manga threads), and on some random SC1 threads related Hite and Woojin allstars as well as the "Flash would do well in Sc2" thread. lol Not surprising that you would disagree with my POV. You are obviously not an avid player of SC2. There are tons of people who were fans of SC1 that did not transfer over to SC2. I understand that, but it does not give you the right to belittle Sc2 players and assume that Sc1 players are better at a game they have yet to play. It's just not very smart. Btw I agree my analogy was bad. The point i was trying to make was that you can't say Sc1 players, simply becuase they are playing an outdated game that demands more mechanically would automatically be better in Sc2. SC2 is much less mechanically focused and is much more strategically focused. This and there are many many other variables to consider in the success of a progamer. As has been mentioned before, SC1 is more mechanically demanding but that doesn't mean that that there is no strategy. By.hero maxes at 500 APM and he's pretty mediocre. Stork is relatively slow in the low 200's but is considered one of the best players still around. Saying that mechanics is everything just shows that you have no idea what pro BW is like. At the very top all the players are pretty damn mechanically sound (except for Fantasy's bio) so what separates them is their ability to read their opponents and prepare strategies, kinda like in SC2. Ya when people talk about SC2 easy mechanics as room for their "game sense and strategy" to grow its basically just all bullshit. Think BW got no game sense or strategy cuz its just a mindless click fest? Our ugly AI units and dangerous enemies make constant map awareness and battle micro and tactial positioning sooooo sooooo key. 500apm..... wow. 300 is 5 clicks a second every second for the whole game. 500APM is??? BW. What are pro sc2 players? like 200 including some bw spamming from the past? And before anyone says: "APM =! skill!" go try to play 200+ without pure spam next game. Can't do it? No, it's an acquired skill. 200+ is barely breaking the min requirment too be a great BW player. sc2 apmis different from BW apm. sc2 apm = clicks per 0.7 second, while BW apm = clicks per 1.0 second. Thus 350 sc2 apm = 500 BW apm.
To clarify, someone at blizzard thinks a minute is 45 seconds, so the APM tab understates quite a bit.
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On May 13 2011 02:45 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP To be fair, he is correct in saying that SC2 is much more enjoyable (on the whole) from a spectator's standpoint. It is much prettier, there are more observer options, and for the most part, it is more understandable for people who aren't players themselves. I watch SC2 tournaments with my friends and roommates, and we all get together to watch Funday Mondays. If I tried to sit them down to watch the grainy, dim BW games, they'd lose interest immediately. From the standpoint of making the game a spectator sport, SC2 is likely the stronger contender. And yes, making it more spectator-friendly is a good thing. More spectators means more coverage, more money for the pros, and making e-sports a legitimate past-time. I'd love to see the day when, say, MLG has a spot on ESPN or another well known and respected channel and watching Starcraft matches won't make me a social outcast.
I wouldnt say that SC2 is more enjoyable on the whole. I mean it has pluses like the observer tools and english casters but at the same time it doesn't have things like REBOREBOREBOREBOREBO and imo the sounds are worse in sc2. July v Best Ever OSL is a good series to show BW newbies and in general people I've showed it to don't get bored immediately.
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On May 13 2011 02:39 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:37 MiniRoman wrote:
What are pro sc2 players? like 200 including some bw spamming from the past?
300-400.
Whaaa? Proof? All of them are 300-400?
Un-fucking-likely
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As a BW player/spectator still the article is a good summary of some things which have been said, i find it pretty funny MC being referred to as God of War in particular haha. The hype in games and amount of people talking up ESPORTS is getting to fucking ridiculous obnoxious levels, how many times are we going to hear OH MY GOD AWESOME FORCEFIELDS in every single game until we realize wait a minute, prehaps this isn't actually awesome? Personally i think the mechanics of SC2 would not even allow the true skill of the best RTS gamers to be even shown, but it's probably an argument for another thread.
Overall this whole thing is just going to cause a shitload of really defensive posts from SC2 players, and it's going to make their defensive mindset thats already automatically against BW even worse. People should be encouraged to watch BW even if they lack the ability or desire to play it, but this isn't going to help matters even if it's true.
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On May 13 2011 02:08 GaryBrackett wrote:
Shocked and appalled at this article, belittling my brothers career as a Starcraft 2 Player. The OP seems to suggest that people are born with Genes that enable them to play a game well. Eugenics is not a concept that appeals to me as a Bulgarian Jew.
I'm going to resist making a remark about your random eugenics comment. But I feel your comment about genes is worthy of further mention. There will be people who are just genetically built better for gaming. There are people like me who can hit left control and backspace on standard keyboards at the same time. In games that require a lot of binds(not so much BW/SC2), that's a HUGE advantage. We can use practically our whole keyboard without having to shift our hands around on it. There are people who have significantly faster reaction times, allowing them to have more APM, simply by birthright. There are also people who will have the mechanics of certain games come to them easily, just like some people learn math easily while others struggle. Do they still have to work and train and hone these skills? Yes, of course. It doesn't mean that they'll be able to walk up to a game and beat the top players in the world in the first day, but certain people will have certain tools that give them advantages over others if properly trained and utilized thanks to their genes.
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I don't know if any of the current top BW players will ever change over.... And I can't really blame them. SC2 is so easy they would be bored within the first month. Besides I don't see BW dying for quite some time (which is nice) so we're all just gonna have to live what we have for now....
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On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP
Not really, it is not worded very well but it has main points. BW has been relatively unpopular outside of Korea. If we as "foreigners" want E-Sports to grow it needs to be in a game medium that can appeal to the average gamer or person. BW simply cannot do that as well because people like pretty things and because BW is as old as stone it obviously is not pretty to look at. This also causes the level of skill to be harder to diminish for the average person. The many little things in BW simply look like nothing to a person not trained in BW. SC2 is easier to follow for the masses and for the newer e-sports scene its afar better option.
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On May 13 2011 02:48 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:43 I)etox wrote:On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP Yep. But man he's got a point, I really like collosus micro as opposed to dropship + reaver micro. Watching collosus move back and forth is way more exciting. O_O I am amazed,but your argument is slightly better than this,but.......
Sorry dude, should have ended that with </s>. It gets a little ridiculous in this thread when I can say something that retarded and it's not readily apparent that I'm being sarcastic because there are actually people in here that would agree with that statement.
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On May 13 2011 02:50 MiniRoman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:39 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 02:37 MiniRoman wrote:
What are pro sc2 players? like 200 including some bw spamming from the past?
300-400. Whaaa? Proof? All of them are 300-400? Un-fucking-likely
They show the APM tab during games sometime in GSLs. I've seen one instance of san having 150 APM at that point in the game (and a flamewar resulted in the LR thread because Nestea had 300 at that point), but he was averaging 300. 300ish is common, and 400 isn't unheard of (Nada). And that's Actions-Per-Blizzard-Minute
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EPT
