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On May 13 2011 02:45 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP To be fair, he is correct in saying that SC2 is much more enjoyable (on the whole) from a spectator's standpoint. It is much prettier, there are more observer options, and for the most part, it is more understandable for people who aren't players themselves. I watch SC2 tournaments with my friends and roommates, and we all get together to watch Funday Mondays. If I tried to sit them down to watch the grainy, dim BW games, they'd lose interest immediately. From the standpoint of making the game a spectator sport, SC2 is likely the stronger contender. And yes, making it more spectator-friendly is a good thing. More spectators means more coverage, more money for the pros, and making e-sports a legitimate past-time. I'd love to see the day when, say, MLG has a spot on ESPN or another well known and respected channel and watching Starcraft matches won't make me a social outcast.
It's completely subjective in saying which is more enjoyable from a spectators standpoint. You will find people who enjoy watching SC2 and hate watching Broodwar, and you will find people who enjoy watching BW and hate watching SC2. Using your own viewpoint as evidence in terms of something subjective doesn't really work. As for me, I enjoy watching BW more but I don't find SC2 boring at all, it's also very enjoyable to watch, just not as much as BW. I will agree though that in terms of the future, SC2 has more potential to become a more popular spectator sport than BW.
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On May 13 2011 02:50 I)etox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:45 Requizen wrote:On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP To be fair, he is correct in saying that SC2 is much more enjoyable (on the whole) from a spectator's standpoint. It is much prettier, there are more observer options, and for the most part, it is more understandable for people who aren't players themselves. I watch SC2 tournaments with my friends and roommates, and we all get together to watch Funday Mondays. If I tried to sit them down to watch the grainy, dim BW games, they'd lose interest immediately. From the standpoint of making the game a spectator sport, SC2 is likely the stronger contender. And yes, making it more spectator-friendly is a good thing. More spectators means more coverage, more money for the pros, and making e-sports a legitimate past-time. I'd love to see the day when, say, MLG has a spot on ESPN or another well known and respected channel and watching Starcraft matches won't make me a social outcast. Wrong wrong wrong wrong. BW is definitely the superior spectator sport. The tension created between the units is incredible high, stuff like reavers + shuttle micro, scourge vs. dropships, spider mines and siege tank lines, etc. What does SC2 have that has high tension? Everyone says marine splitting vs. banelings but bio splits vs. lurkers was already standard in bw. The only thing sc2 has on bw is better graphics and a friendlier observer interface (<-- speaking in terms of qualities as a spectator sport).
Well, you say those things as a long-time BW fan and (I assume) player. To most people who are new to watching it, it's not "Oh, those Tanks are just out of range" or "Oh man, so close to those Lurkers/Spider Mines", they just see outdated, 2D models standing there. Micro and even Macro looks much more flashy and newbie friendly in SC2 than in BW.
I'm not saying it's better for knowledgeable folks. I really like watching BW. I know how much time and energy are going into everything and how complex things like Reaver drops are, but, say, my cousin wouldn't. To him a Reaver drop wouldn't seem more complex than a stimmed Marine/Marauder drop, even though the Reaver takes a crapload more micro.
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On May 13 2011 02:50 MiniRoman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:39 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 02:37 MiniRoman wrote:
What are pro sc2 players? like 200 including some bw spamming from the past?
300-400. Whaaa? Proof? All of them are 300-400? Un-fucking-likely
220 sc2 apm = 300 BW apm
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i dont like this type of controversial writings about esports and "great" players... but i have to say that i really like to see articles like this here on TL....you really put a lot of work into this...and thats why i check this site daily...so much effort
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On May 13 2011 02:51 Canadium wrote:
I don't know if any of the current top BW players will ever change over.... And I can't really blame them. SC2 is so easy they would be bored within the first month. Besides I don't see BW dying for quite some time (which is nice) so we're all just gonna have to live what we have for now....
This sounds so IGNORANT.
Their CAREER is Starcraft. If A-teamers are soooooooo much better than "shitty mc and mvp" why not switch? They are NOT making more money. Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc may be, but they are outliers.
MC has already made something like 130,000 USD just 5 months into 2011. If SC2 is so damn easy, why don't the middle-tier BW pros switch over as soon as possible while the wins are "free"?
The only argument I have seen against this is "well........ they don't find sc2 fun!!!!!!1"
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On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD.
This isn't a "which is more entertaining" thread...but I agree, by modern standards BW graphics are pretty bad. Not really sure why you think the micro as "redundant and tedious" though. BW micro I feel is quite a bit more developed and interesting than SC2 micro (BW micro resulting from bad pathfinding not counting). A lot of the sick BW micro requires a level of skill that nothing in SC2 does like going Leta style wraith openings in TvZ, reaver/corsair, or fuck even 2 hat muta requires more skill to control your muta than anything in SC2. Part of this is game design i.e. poor acceleration for most of your flying units and an enforced minimum latency.
I think something we can take away from the OP is that when some of the better BW pros DO switch over they will bring over 1) dedicated practice regime 2) a higher level of mechanics. What do these mean? I'm entirely not sure tbh. I would imagine that these players will push the level of play even higher than what it currently is on the pro scene (this is what the OP is getting at). Sure, SC2 is very timings based right now b/c the game isn't mapped out in the way BW is, but several of the MUs already show significant areas for dumping high apm like unit control (TvZ comes to mind) and TvT. Engagements in SC2 tend to be very positional and composition based. Part of this is the new high ground mechanic, watch-towers, and gold bases while the other part is the increased importance of "hard counters" or ways in which blizzard is specifically designing the game to create counters (which wasn't something they did in BW per se). Ultimately I think as new units are added and the game becomes figured out, current pros become better and A class BW pros (or S class though this is unlikely) switch over we'll start to see some truly sick games.
People gush over sC vs NesTea but a game that close happens at least once a week in BW. Something to look forward to for the future of SC2 ^^
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On May 13 2011 02:53 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:50 MiniRoman wrote:On May 13 2011 02:39 Ribbon wrote:On May 13 2011 02:37 MiniRoman wrote:
What are pro sc2 players? like 200 including some bw spamming from the past?
300-400. Whaaa? Proof? All of them are 300-400? Un-fucking-likely They show the APM tab during games sometime in GSLs. I've seen one instance of san having 150 APM at that point in the game (and a flamewar resulted in the LR thread because Nestea had 300 at that point), but he was averaging 300. 300ish is common, and 400 isn't unheard of (Nada). And that's Actions-Per-Blizzard-Minute
Hope jc got some royalties on inventing APM~ Leave it to Blizzard to fuck it up.
I don't watch enough sc2 to know why they need that many actions. Most games I see contain like 10-20 units for either player and thats about it
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Here is a list of some threads that were closed for daring to compare BW and SC 2 yet this article makes the front page.
AI and Xel Naga Towers
Early Game
BW vs SC2
why bw is better than SC2
Poll which is harder
Which is better
Which would you play
basic comparisons
bw vs SC2 pros/cons
While I agree that most of these threads needed to be closed because they lacked the information and research in this op, I find it a little funny that this has been allowed to go on for so long when clearly the debate has gone from whether or not BW pros would do well in SC 2 to BW vs. SC 2. There are a few more of these threads as well as alot of people being banned for saying some of the things posters are saying in this thread.
I am a huge, huge, HUGE BW fan. I think it would be great if all the greats switched to SC 2 and no doubt they would do well. However, the OP is insulting and derogatory to SC 2 players by refering to them as high school football teams. No. They are pros. They are currently the best of the best at what they do. Maybe one day that will change. Maybe you are right and BW pros will switch over and destroy everyone at SC 2. It's possible. But it hasn't happened yet and you have no evidence of this other than that some BW "nobodies" as you put it has done well. There are also people from WC 3 who are doing well. Example Naniwa. He's just awesome but far from the best of the best. He did fairly well in WC 3. What about Moon? He was really the best of the best and WC 3 is at least as similar to SC 2 as brood war is. He isn't doing that great right now. Why is that? Because it's a different game. I agree that some of the concepts of excellence be it in BW, WC 3, or any other endeavor requires some of the same concepts and therefore if you are able to achieve excellence in one field through work ethics, you will be able to achieve great things in other areas such as SC 2. If you could become a great athlete in one sport, you could probably, with enough motivation, do it in another. It's just that because they are already into similar style of game or entertainment, they are more likely to play the game. There probably are great Halo, Street Fighter, whatever players out there with 10X the work ethic of these guys or even people from careers not devoted to video games who would absolutely dominate if they started playing this game. We won't know until they do. Until then, as your OP suggests, SC 2 competition is a farce.
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On May 13 2011 02:43 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 01:57 fraktoasters wrote:On May 13 2011 01:51 Kznn wrote:On May 13 2011 01:46 Deadlyfish wrote:
I cant actually believe that the word "farce" was used to describe this. Maybe say something like "we havent even seen the potential of sc2 or sc2 players yet - there is still more to come" or something like that. Take a different approach to the topic. You took the "BW-players-are-much-better-than-SC2-players" approach. And while i dont think the article is offensive, it being on the fronpage of TL is kinda annoying. You know what scars me the most? sc2 is getting figure out pretty fast. Theres no such unit that people don't know how to use efficiently. Yeah, timmings and oppening builds are being created every day... but I don't see how the game could develop alot more. In bw we have units being used for the first time just recently (queens in zvt). maybe it's just me, but i'm a bit worried about the game state right now. You know people keep bringing up Queens in ZvT like constantly whenever someone talks about BW and it's mentioned like all the time in this thread. Can I just say, people might want to stop using that. I didn't play BW and when I hear these elitist BW players say like "omg it has taken 9 years for anyone to hit the Q button in a ZvT. BW is amazing!" it just makes you guys sound really really really REALLY stupid. It makes us sound stupid to non bw-players cause they don't have any idea of the multitasking effort that goes in to lategame ZvT and how hard it is to manage an extra group of spell casters and to be able to adjust your strategy enough without dying to be able to spend the resources/larva/attention on them. And that's just a huge oversimplification I applied to be able to somewhat summarize it in one sentence. What it boils down to is, they have no idea. Even a lot of the BW watchers, who never played the game somewhat competitively, have no idea. And that's why there's such a huge difference in reactions to this article. There's people who played BW and AT LEAST understand where intrigue is coming from and mostly agree. Then there's people who didn't play BW competitively and just see facts in that article. Facts that seem irrelevant when not backed up by the history and knowledge behind them.
I played BW competitively and I don't agree with his sentiments.
You know the 200+ actions per minute you can do in sc1 in order to win? Well there is 200+ actions per minute in sc2 that you can do, too (though admittedly they may not all be as crucial). But the point is those actions help you either way and the more useful stuff you can do the better you can play.
It's just a silly, rude argument. It's based on speculation and insulting to current sc2 pros, who happen to be playing a brand new game. As I said before, it's massive sc:bw elitism. Would those sc:bw players also have just all been the absolute top players at wc3 too, if they had switched to that?
I'll repost what I said before since you think all the people who played BW before "mostly agree".
On May 12 2011 17:20 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 17:07 H wrote:On May 12 2011 17:02 travis wrote:
It is absolutely ridiculous to compare the competition in a game that is less than 1 year old to a game that people have been playing professionally for over 10 years. To call the competition in sc2 a "farce" is to call the competition in most every game other than sc:bw a farce, and that's sc:bw elitism at it's finest(and not in a good way). Except the top competition in SC2, as written in the article, played SC1 professionally for years.. and sucked at it. And maybe they played chess and sucked at that too? Who cares? A bunch of B teamer and some A- teamer bw players switched and some B teamers rose to the top, with amazing play. So what exactly is the point? That competition can become more fierce? Well duh, the game is less than a year old. Or is the point that sc:bw has better gamers and that if the pros from it switch to sc2 they will immediately own everyone? Because that's just conjecture and I expect it's not exactly true, and it certainly won't happen instantly anyways. It's also rude. In 5 years it won't be a sc1 player sitting on the GSL(or whatever tournament) throne. It'll be a sc2 player. Actually you know what, it already is. Nestea is clearly a sc2 player.
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On May 13 2011 02:46 Sumsi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:23 NinMarth wrote:On May 13 2011 02:18 Sumsi wrote:On May 13 2011 02:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
That's a very long OP given how simplistic it is.
"Hey everyone, just wanted to remind you that BW pros are better! Thanks, bye." I think it's not just that. It's also a valid answer to all the people which hype the SC2 scene to a level it simply isn't at the moment, like certain commentators. i totally agree. it's really bad that commentators try to make games interesting and to entertain the viewers. who wants that? the commentators should tell us how much everyone of the players suck and that it's a total waste of time to even watch them. ... I would prefer more diplomatic terms like "Nestea was a former solid BW progamer". But if you can live with almost comical hype, good for you.
I'm pretty sure they have specifically never said Nestea was any good in BW, they said that people used to tell him he was washed up etc and never really made a name for himself.
Tastosis have actually rarely called someone a player as being an exceptional BW pro with a few exceptions like Mvp (obviously excluding Nada etc). Also, they usually only say that many of these were former BW players so they have good mechanics. I honestly believe a lot of people have selective memories.
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On May 13 2011 02:55 Mailing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:51 Canadium wrote:
I don't know if any of the current top BW players will ever change over.... And I can't really blame them. SC2 is so easy they would be bored within the first month. Besides I don't see BW dying for quite some time (which is nice) so we're all just gonna have to live what we have for now.... This sounds so IGNORANT. Their CAREER is Starcraft. If A-teamers are soooooooo much better than "shitty mc and mvp" why not switch? They are NOT making more money. Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu, etc may be, but they are outliers. MC has already made something like 130,000 USD just 5 months into 2011. If SC2 is so damn easy, why don't the middle-tier BW pros switch over as soon as possible while the wins are "free"? The only argument I have seen against this is "well........ they don't find sc2 fun!!!!!!1"
Well, Kespa won't let them play BW again for a few years, and if the skill level increases, they could be stuck
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First I'd like to say kudos to you for having the balls to state an opinion that would be very unpopular to the swarms of new fans that have flocked to sc2 and have no sense of BW, its history and its elite. I very much agree. Although I'm no amazing starcraft or rts player, I do have a strong analytical mind. In so many "top level" games of sc2 I see countless instances of laziness and poor multitasking (relative to being "top level") Kinds of things that players would simply get laughed at for in BW and criticized harshly for, seem to get brushed over in sc2.
When I see players in 1a mode, spell casters running out in front of armies to die, dropships forgotten about. It's just carelessness, inadequate multitasking, and mental laziness much of the time. In BW if you do a drop, sometimes the drop gets crushed, but you do everything you can to keep that dropship alive and conserve your precious resources. In sc2 far too often, I see dropships simply left to die after drops or big battles. It's these kinds of things that top BW players will bring to sc2 that will simply put todays best of sc2 to shame. When I see gsl semi final matches and nexus, queens, and OC's have extra energy (sometimes pretty early in the game) for no good reason, I realize that a storm is coming.
The real difference besides practice, and discipline is perfection. Flash and Jaedong are not trying to be the best BW player. They are striving to be PERFECT BW players. That is making 0 blunders and mistakes. Making 0 bad decisions, having uncanny "star sense". Being tipped off by the tiniest of clues.
If sc2 players don't start pushing themselves this hard with perfection as their standard and actively seeking out every micron of inefficiency and eliminating anything left to chance in their play, They will simply be brushed aside when today's top BW players arrive in sc2
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Wait, if the argument goes "Flash could crush the StarCraft 2 competitive scene and that scene is therefore a sham", then we can hypothesise that, according to that logic, the SC2 scene is as he says. But following that same logic, wouldn't it be proving that the Brood War competitive scene is a sham? Because Flash actually is crushing that competitive scene.
I don't understand this article at all.
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On May 13 2011 02:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:50 I)etox wrote:On May 13 2011 02:45 Requizen wrote:On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP To be fair, he is correct in saying that SC2 is much more enjoyable (on the whole) from a spectator's standpoint. It is much prettier, there are more observer options, and for the most part, it is more understandable for people who aren't players themselves. I watch SC2 tournaments with my friends and roommates, and we all get together to watch Funday Mondays. If I tried to sit them down to watch the grainy, dim BW games, they'd lose interest immediately. From the standpoint of making the game a spectator sport, SC2 is likely the stronger contender. And yes, making it more spectator-friendly is a good thing. More spectators means more coverage, more money for the pros, and making e-sports a legitimate past-time. I'd love to see the day when, say, MLG has a spot on ESPN or another well known and respected channel and watching Starcraft matches won't make me a social outcast. Wrong wrong wrong wrong. BW is definitely the superior spectator sport. The tension created between the units is incredible high, stuff like reavers + shuttle micro, scourge vs. dropships, spider mines and siege tank lines, etc. What does SC2 have that has high tension? Everyone says marine splitting vs. banelings but bio splits vs. lurkers was already standard in bw. The only thing sc2 has on bw is better graphics and a friendlier observer interface (<-- speaking in terms of qualities as a spectator sport). Well, you say those things as a long-time BW fan and (I assume) player. To most people who are new to watching it, it's not "Oh, those Tanks are just out of range" or "Oh man, so close to those Lurkers/Spider Mines", they just see outdated, 2D models standing there. Micro and even Macro looks much more flashy and newbie friendly in SC2 than in BW. I'm not saying it's better for knowledgeable folks. I really like watching BW. I know how much time and energy are going into everything and how complex things like Reaver drops are, but, say, my cousin wouldn't. To him a Reaver drop wouldn't seem more complex than a stimmed Marine/Marauder drop, even though the Reaver takes a crapload more micro.
BW is watched by a large casual audience in Korea as well as hardcore fans. If it was hard to understand like you suggest then it would have never been popular. I dunno what people's constant reference to 2D like it's a bad thing comes from, when Starcraft 2 is from a 2D perspective anyway, it could literally be identically the same gameplay-wise if it was 2D.
No one's going to consistently watch SC2 solely because it's got 3D graphics, you think people are gonna watch eSports and become fans because Collosi shoot big lasers? For a start it's not THAT impressive even, it's pretty dated looking already. Sprites are clear and represent what they need to perfectly fine.
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On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD.
My cousin that played BW maybe for 3 weeks during his life time (he mostly plays in Company of Heroes), enjoying watching VODs from BW as well. But he cant stand watching SC2, he says its boring to watch. He is however 21 years old and also watch the rise of the greatest video games in years since 1999, so he doesnt care much about graphics. But he, as CoH player said that SC2 not only is watching SC2 Vods somehow boring, but graphic suck ass too, and BW is better to watch despite its age.
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On May 13 2011 02:53 RushWifDietCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:45 Requizen wrote:On May 13 2011 02:40 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 13 2011 02:38 stratmatt wrote:
as somebody who never followed the bw scene and only bothered to check it out after watching lots of sc2.... i hav to say that bw is BORING. its only appealing to people who have been following it since it was the only thing around. the truth is that the graphics are terrible, the units look dinky, and the micro looks redundant and tedious. sc2 is way more entertaining to newcomers and pretty much just more fun to watch through and through. seriously, bw graphics are SO BAD. imo posts like this are much worse than the OP To be fair, he is correct in saying that SC2 is much more enjoyable (on the whole) from a spectator's standpoint. It is much prettier, there are more observer options, and for the most part, it is more understandable for people who aren't players themselves. I watch SC2 tournaments with my friends and roommates, and we all get together to watch Funday Mondays. If I tried to sit them down to watch the grainy, dim BW games, they'd lose interest immediately. From the standpoint of making the game a spectator sport, SC2 is likely the stronger contender. And yes, making it more spectator-friendly is a good thing. More spectators means more coverage, more money for the pros, and making e-sports a legitimate past-time. I'd love to see the day when, say, MLG has a spot on ESPN or another well known and respected channel and watching Starcraft matches won't make me a social outcast. It's completely subjective in saying which is more enjoyable from a spectators standpoint. You will find people who enjoy watching SC2 and hate watching Broodwar, and you will find people who enjoy watching BW and hate watching SC2. Using your own viewpoint as evidence in terms of something subjective doesn't really work. As for me, I enjoy watching BW more but I don't find SC2 boring at all, it's also very enjoyable to watch, just not as much as BW. I will agree though that in terms of the future, SC2 has more potential to become a more popular spectator sport than BW.
Yup, I can't believe some people just can't get on their heads that some people may like another stuff than them. Personally I love watching both of them, I like playing SC2 more but I love BW too. As for what has the bigger potential to make e sports grow on the West I'd say you are right in that SC2 has much more potential.
I think this game should be mandatory to complete tbqh:
http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/factsopinions/factsopinions.html\
Hardest game ever
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I believe that the "farce" line was ill conceived, and I think that it has moved the discussion away from the point that should be fairly uncontroversial.
The best players will play the game that they can get the most out of.
Largely, this means monetary compensation. For some players like Boxer there are other motivations, like fan service via televised matches. Nada can go to school while still competing at a pretty high level. Cool and Tester can still do pretty well in a much more relaxed practice environment.
But let's imagine that we are someone who could dominate in whatever scene you wanted to participate in. Would we choose SC2 or BW? We would examine each option as sum(payoffs*risks) for each possible payoff. The players at the very top in BW are getting *salaries* of substantial sums of money. There is essentially no risk in that. It was mentioned that Flash's salary is $200000 + 50000 if he meets some number of criteria. That extra sum of money is more risky. Let's say the terms are pretty hard to reach, though -- he'll get it 50% of the time, or he'll get, on average 50% of the payoff (and those two are equivalent). But we still need to consider prize pools. Flash has been in the finals of 4 of the OSL/MSL in 2010, so let's assume that we'll win 2/3 of the "big tournaments". So MSL is around $50000 for first, and OSL is around $30000. 3 per year of each means that we can add $160000 to our expected value for playing BW.
So that means our total expected value for dominating BW is around $385,000. (Is this right? I'm not sure if BW progaming teams take any of the winnings, or if any of the prize money was already included in the $200,000 number. I think not, though, if the information in the OP is from this.)
Base salaries seem lower in SC2. TSL claimed to be the first to offer salaries, and that was for $20,000 to $30,000 for their top players. We'll just use the high end of that, although other teams might not be paying players at all (although MC recently referenced his oGs salary in an interview, so it seems other teams are now following suit).
GSL prizes (format from here.) 7 times $44,500 (for the normal Code S tourneys) plus 1 super tourney for $93,000, plus one world championship for $27,000 plus "Blizzard Cup" with an unknown prize. I assume $68,500 because it takes me to a nice even total first place prize pool of $500,000. So what is the risk? The game hasn't settled down as much, so I think we have to say that it is more volatile. I think it would be fair to use MVP's record of two tournament wins in four tries this year (I don't want to look at stuff from last year, as the open tournaments were very volatile due to a lack of seeding and a huge one-shot qualification system, and some players hadn't really switched over yet.) I will just assume 50% to be "dominant" in SC2, which I think is more than fair to SC2.
Our total expected value from SC2 is $280000. With a comparable base salary to BW, it might make a lot of sense to switch over, but we aren't there yet.
I think this is the much more interesting aspect of the OP to discuss, rather than fuel the BW/SC2 flamewar.
tl;dr: If you're choosing what game to play, money is pretty significant. And there's more of it as a top BW player.
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On May 13 2011 02:58 Reborn8u wrote:
First I'd like to say kudos to you for having the balls to state an opinion that would be very unpopular to the swarms of new fans that have flocked to sc2 and have no sense of BW, its history and its elite. I very much agree. Although I'm no amazing starcraft or rts player, I do have a strong analytical mind. In so many "top level" games of sc2 I see countless instances of laziness and poor multitasking (relative to being "top level") Kinds of things that players would simply get laughed at for in BW and criticized harshly for, seem to get brushed over in sc2.
When I see players in 1a mode, spell casters running out in front of armies to die, dropships forgotten about. It's just carelessness, inadequate multitasking, and mental laziness much of the time. In BW if you do a drop, sometimes the drop gets crushed, but you do everything you can to keep that dropship alive and conserve your precious resources. In sc2 far too often, I see dropships simply left to die after drops or big battles. It's these kinds of things that top BW players will bring to sc2 that will simply put todays best of sc2 to shame. When I see gsl semi final matches and nexus, queens, and OC's have extra energy (sometimes pretty early in the game) for no good reason, I realize that a storm is coming.
The real difference besides practice, and discipline is perfection. Flash and Jaedong are not trying to be the best BW player. They are striving to be PERFECT BW players. That is making 0 blunders and mistakes. Making 0 bad decisions, having uncanny "star sense". Being tipped off by the tiniest of clues.
If sc2 players don't start pushing themselves this hard with perfection as their standard and actively seeking out every micron of inefficiency and eliminating anything left to chance in their play, They will simply be brushed aside when today's top BW players arrive in sc2
I agree with all of this except the idea that BW players will be good at SC2 because they're just inherently better human beings, which has always been the subtext of pro-BW arguments, and drifted a little to close to "text" in the OP.
New players are going to show up, and the current best SC2 players are going to have to either step up or step aside. I think the SC2 greats will be people who are SC2 players, instead of "BW players taking an easy check". People who came out of nowhere.
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You don't see people saying that Emalianenko or Silva aren't champions because they never fought Klitschko. Tennis doesn't take away legitimacy from Table Tennis, Ice Hockey doesn't take it away from Field Hockey, Cricket doesn't take it away from Baseball.
The BW scene having great players does not take away from the legitimacy of the SC2 scene.
These are all different disciplines with similar origins - they require adaptation and a (in some cases strongly, in some cases slightly) different skill set.
I don't even disagree with the majority of the article (which boils down to "fantastic athletes would also do well in other (similar) sports) - but coming to the conclusion that this somehow illegitimises previous competition, even as far as going to call it a "farce"? No. This seems to be more of a gut-feeling of an old BW-fan than an objective statement of a sports journalist. Which is fine, it's an editorial and everything.
It's obvious that many on TL disagree. 
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Hoooooly 96 pages of replies on this thread, that's the TL spirit!
Great write-up by the way. A lot of it pretty much confirmed what was circulating "unofficially" in the community, but it's better to hear it from dedicated a staff writer.
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EPT
