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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:41 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Not alone, no, but to deny it played a factor in it is absurd. Obviously he wasn't completely awful mechanically, but he was an average Korean at best. Hell, in his GSL run he was well below average Korean in terms of mechanics, but it was his build order choice and strategic play that pushed him through to win. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:40 kollin wrote: Yeah it's not like that was due to his mechanical skill. You're saying his mechanics had nothing to do with it? Look at this way, his injury limits his potential mechanics and yet he's still a mechanically good player. Not to the level of Innovation mind but still better than 99% of players. Even with that handicap in his mechanics that the injury forces he still took Innovation to a game 5 in the WCS S1 Finals, won WCS Europe, and took Life to a game 7 in the GSL all post 2011 while injured. Sure without his injury his mechanics might not be the BEST in the world, but if it would improve them by a little bit to go along with how strong of a player he already is, I do think it's safe to say he'd be one of the top players in the world. It's hard to argue that he isn't already anyway. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:45 Vindicare605 wrote: You're saying his mechanics had nothing to do with it? Look at this way, his injury limits his potential mechanics and yet he's still a mechanically good player. Not to the level of Innovation mind but still better than 99% of players. Even with that handicap in his mechanics that the injury forces he still took Innovation to a game 5 in the WCS S1 Finals, won WCS Europe, and took Life to a game 7 in the GSL all in recent memory while injured. Sure without his injury his mechanics might not be the BEST in the world, but if it would improve them by a little bit to go along with how strong of a player he already is, I do think it's safe to say he'd be one of the top players in the world. It's hard to argue that he isn't already anyway. Trying to work out what-ifs and what-abouts is utterly pointless. My point is what he actually did was win a GSL and IEM despite being mechanically mediocre, by having a brilliant strategic mind. Obviously if he had his old wrists back he'd be the best in the world. I pose this question to you though. If Mvp had never injured his wrists, would his strategic play and preparation be as good as it is today? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:48 kollin wrote: Trying to work out what-ifs and what-abouts is utterly pointless. My point is what he actually did was win a GSL and IEM despite being mechanically mediocre, by having a brilliant strategic mind. Obviously if he had his old wrists back he'd be the best in the world. I pose this question to you though. If Mvp had never injured his wrists, would his strategic play and preparation be as good as it is today? I'll answer that simply as such: I don't know but it's definitely easy to say yes in hindsight knowing what his potential is. I just think that for all of the talk about how smart MVP is, his mechanics get underrated. He's mechanically mediocre by top Korean standards but that still puts him ahead of nearly every foreign player and a lot of Koreans as well. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:54 Vindicare605 wrote: I'll answer that simply as such: I don't know but it's definitely easy to say yes in hindsight knowing what his potential is. I just think that for all of the talk about how smart MVP is, his mechanics get underrated. He's mechanically mediocre by top Korean standards but that still puts him ahead of nearly every foreign player and a lot of Koreans as well. It's actually quite an interesting conundrum as to where Mvp would be skillwise if he had not injured himself. The only reason he was forced to play so intelligently was due to his wrists, and if he hadn't injured himself then he wouldn't have been forced to play intelligently. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:56 kollin wrote: It's actually quite an interesting conundrum as to where Mvp would be skillwise if he had not injured himself. The only reason he was forced to play so intelligently was due to his wrists, and if he hadn't injured himself then he wouldn't have been forced to play intelligently. You're making it sound like he'd never have achieved one without giving up the other. That's a very cynical jump to make. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:28 MasterOfPuppets wrote: I think you're mistaking him for NesTea. Mvp, if not for his wrist injuries, would still be one of the best macro/mechanical players, in fact he's proven it so many times already... I meant with his injuries. Sorry if that was unclear ><. Trying to work out what-ifs and what-abouts is utterly pointless. My point is what he actually did was win a GSL and IEM despite being mechanically mediocre, by having a brilliant strategic mind. Obviously if he had his old wrists back he'd be the best in the world. I pose this question to you though. If Mvp had never injured his wrists, would his strategic play and preparation be as good as it is today? There's no way to know. Mvp's strategic play has always been awesome, which is why he was widely known as being one of the few players who didn't rely on like one really good cheese or build to win. He just played straight up and knew how to react to anything. It didn't really seem like his strategic ability was ever lacking, so I see no reason as to why it wouldn't have continued to improve. The reason for that is that mechanical ability isn't something that you have to necessarily train by ignoring strategy; it's just a consequence of being able to play a lot at a high level. Mvp's mechanics are behind because, by his own admission, he couldn't play many games per day. I don't think Mvp was being lazy and not practicing strategically before his injury became so disabling. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:00 Shiori wrote: I meant with his injuries. Sorry if that was unclear ><. There's no way to know. Mvp's strategic play has always been awesome, which is why he was widely known as being one of the few players who didn't rely on like one really good cheese or build to win. He just played straight up and knew how to react to anything. It didn't really seem like his strategic ability was ever lacking, so I see no reason as to why it wouldn't have continued to improve. The reason for that is that mechanical ability isn't something that you have to necessarily train by ignoring strategy; it's just a consequence of being able to play a lot at a high level. Mvp's mechanics are behind because, by his own admission, he couldn't play many games per day. I don't think Mvp was being lazy and not practicing strategically before his injury became so disabling. Mvp wasn't even near the level he reached in 2012 strategically. He just played well, and beat the living shit out of all his opponents. His play in 2012 was a hell of a lot more smart. For example, against Naniwa in the round of 8 of the GSL he realised that he could not win if the game went late. He also realised that Naniwa would most likely realise that, and play safely. So Mvp's choice was to pull out a wonky two base bio tank all in that I think he used against MC in either the GSL or GSTL, and that with a combo of other stuff won him the series. If he was 2011 Mvp, he would have played straight up and just won which isn't strategic play, it's mechanically brilliant play. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:03 kollin wrote: Mvp wasn't even near the level he reached in 2012 strategically. He just played well, and beat the living shit out of all his opponents. His play in 2012 was a hell of a lot more smart. For example, against Naniwa in the round of 8 of the GSL he realised that he could not win if the game went late. He also realised that Naniwa would most likely realise that, and play safely. So Mvp's choice was to pull out a wonky two base bio tank all in that I think he used against MC in either the GSL or GSTL, and that with a combo of other stuff won him the series. If he was 2011 Mvp, he would have played straight up and just won which isn't strategic play, it's mechanically brilliant play. I think that's being kinda unfair. Yes, Mvp in 2011 wasn't at the level he was in 2012 strategically...but Mvp in 2010 wasn't at the level he was in 2011 either. This is true of almost every player. You can't really compare players across the evolution of the metagame because strategy evolves. I'm sure Mvp would have reacted to Terran standard play being figured out, because that's what happened in some parts of 2012. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 15 2013 05:06 Shiori wrote: I think that's being kinda unfair. Yes, Mvp in 2011 wasn't at the level he was in 2012 strategically...but Mvp in 2010 wasn't at the level he was in 2011 either. This is true of almost every player. You can't really compare players across the evolution of the metagame because strategy evolves. I'm sure Mvp would have reacted to Terran standard play being figured out, because that's what happened in some parts of 2012. Ehh...maybe. Though I don't think he would have done to the level injured Mvp did. Nevertheless, this is all hypotheticals so this discussion will reach no conclusion anyway >.> | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
All that matters is Mvp took 3rd/4th at the WCS World Finals and was almost in the finals. The discussion should really be about how its sad that the WCS format somewhat prevents him from playing in the GSL/OSL tournaments. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On July 15 2013 07:39 NKexquisite wrote: What prevents him was him dropping out to code B honestly...Keep talking about the "what-ifs"... All that matters is Mvp took 3rd/4th at the WCS World Finals and was almost in the finals. The discussion should really be about how its sad that the WCS format somewhat prevents him from playing in the GSL/OSL tournaments. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
On July 15 2013 07:45 SiskosGoatee wrote: What prevents him was him dropping out to code B honestly... Why would you compete in code B/code A/code S, when you can just play code NA/EU for the same amount of money? WCS KR should have a way bigger prize pool, maybe take some of the prize pool from the finals to wcs kr. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On July 15 2013 08:01 sibs wrote: You seem to have an inunderstanding of the word 'prevent'. A better offer does not 'prevent' you from taking a worse one.Why would you compete in code B/code A/code S, when you can just play code NA/EU for the same amount of money? WCS KR should have a way bigger prize pool, maybe take some of the prize pool from the finals to wcs kr. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 15 2013 08:01 sibs wrote: Why would you compete in code B/code A/code S, when you can just play code NA/EU for the same amount of money? WCS KR should have a way bigger prize pool, maybe take some of the prize pool from the finals to wcs kr. Mvp is actually advantaged in the current system. If WCS was redone so that Korea got more points and seeds and prize money, Mvp would have the choice to either almost certainly lose in Korea (Code S right now is ridiculously stacked and Mvp can't win that reliably or even with reasonable likelihood) or participate in EU/NA, then play in season finals. Except if Korea gets more seeds, then Mvp has to play against Innovation/Parting/Rain/sOs/Soulkey/RorO/First/Flash etc. etc. instead of just having to play one or two of them and mostly foreigners/non code S Koreans like current WCS. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On July 15 2013 08:16 SiskosGoatee wrote: You seem to have an inunderstanding of the word 'prevent'. A better offer does not 'prevent' you from taking a worse one. Theres a commercial on American TV for I believe a phone company where they pretend to sell people hotdogs and say they can pay either 10 dollars or 5 dollars for the same thing. Obviously since its a commercial (or if it happened outside a commercial honestly) everyone choose to pay 5 dollars because it made sense. I feel this is a perfect analogy for the reason MVP choose to be in WCS EU. On the main topic of his play as someone who is a huge fan of his back in 2011 it actually hurt to watch his GSL run during season 2 because he barely looked like MVP. He looked more like a prizefighter who was on his last legs trying to find a way to win no matter what he had to do. When you compare it to the MVP of 2011, who basically just dominated his opponents with superior macro micro to the point where it seemed he wanted late game more than any other terran, you basically get feeling that if there wasn't the name MVP on the screen how many people would have realized it was him. I know in a few interviews he has said his wrists are feeling better (at least in most recent ones I have seen) but he still basically missed about a year of intense practice and still managed to be a dominant force in gaming regardless of how he had to do it and if he is better I would not be surprised if he won one of the WCS season finals. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 15 2013 04:48 kollin wrote: Trying to work out what-ifs and what-abouts is utterly pointless. This thread is full of what-ifs and what-abouts. Even the OP is based on them. | ||
Waxangel
United States33713 Posts
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
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