EPT
The Elephant in the Room - Page 319
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On July 14 2013 12:41 SiskosGoatee wrote: You think it's a bad thing that new strategies are popping up and the game strays fresh? Since the mapping community flat out refuses to keep the metagame fresh Blizzard has got to do it honestly. Woah now, don't blame this on the mapping community. There are a ton of non-standard maps waiting to be played in the Custom Games section on B.Net with all kinds of wonky and crazy shit. No tournament will use them though because they are just that, "Not standard Maps." Tournaments need to be the ones that force new maps into the rotation, players will never push for it and the mapmaking community itself has no power over whether or not their maps actually get picked up or not. blame the tournaments, blame the pro-players for being so stubborn about playing on standard maps, but don't blame the map makers because it definitely isn't their fault. Perfect example of this? Frost was part of the MLG Anaheim map pool but you hardly saw it played at all. Why? Players got to pick their own maps besides their starting map and nearly always chose the same 3-4 maps completely neglecting the new ones. Is that Frost's creator's fault? Or is that the fault of the players just simply wanting to play on maps they've practiced over ones they haven't? Or is it the fault of MLG for leaving that choice up to the players in the first place? Arguments can be made for MLG or the Players but definitely not for the mapmaker. They can't force people to play their maps, only tournaments can do that. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17750 Posts
On July 14 2013 17:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Woah now, don't blame this on the mapping community. There are a ton of non-standard maps waiting to be played in the Custom Games section on B.Net with all kinds of wonky and crazy shit. No tournament will use them though because they are just that, "Not standard Maps." Tournaments need to be the ones that force new maps into the rotation, players will never push for it and the mapmaking community itself has no power over whether or not their maps actually get picked up or not. blame the tournaments, blame the pro-players for being so stubborn about playing on standard maps, but don't blame the map makers because it definitely isn't their fault. Perfect example of this? Frost was part of the MLG Anaheim map pool but you hardly saw it played at all. Why? Players got to pick their own maps besides their starting map and nearly always chose the same 3-4 maps completely neglecting the new ones. Is that Frost's creator's fault? Or is that the fault of the players just simply wanting to play on maps they've practiced over ones they haven't? Or is it the fault of MLG for leaving that choice up to the players in the first place? Arguments can be made for MLG or the Players but definitely not for the mapmaker. They can't force people to play their maps, only tournaments can do that. It's really sad how similar all the maps are, we used to get different openings for different maps, now it's almost always the same. It's also made obvious when you read recaps of games they often don't even say what map it was or what spawning positions cause it really doesn't matter. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On July 14 2013 17:13 Vindicare605 wrote: Woah now, don't blame this on the mapping community. There are a ton of non-standard maps waiting to be played in the Custom Games section on B.Net with all kinds of wonky and crazy shit. No tournament will use them though because they are just that, "Not standard Maps." Tournaments need to be the ones that force new maps into the rotation, players will never push for it and the mapmaking community itself has no power over whether or not their maps actually get picked up or not. blame the tournaments, blame the pro-players for being so stubborn about playing on standard maps, but don't blame the map makers because it definitely isn't their fault. Perfect example of this? Frost was part of the MLG Anaheim map pool but you hardly saw it played at all. Why? Players got to pick their own maps besides their starting map and nearly always chose the same 3-4 maps completely neglecting the new ones. Is that Frost's creator's fault? Or is that the fault of the players just simply wanting to play on maps they've practiced over ones they haven't? Or is it the fault of MLG for leaving that choice up to the players in the first place? Arguments can be made for MLG or the Players but definitely not for the mapmaker. They can't force people to play their maps, only tournaments can do that. As far as I know, SiskosGoatee is a map-maker, and back when I browsed the mapping sub-forum regularly I noticed him posting some pretty cool maps, only to be met with responses that it's not similar enough with the boring ol' Ohana/Daybreak etc that every other mapper was making. I think he knows a little bit more about this issue than either of us, to be frank. Also wow, how is this thread still going on. | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On July 14 2013 18:51 Elroi wrote: Sorry but Bogus and Rain were insanely strong BW players. sOs too, once he got away from OZ he started showing some really strong play in BW. Rain and sOs were two of the most promising young protoss players at the time, both of them winning rookie of the year award iirc. And Bogus definitely was the best up and coming terran player and already the ace of STX soul. Did you even follow BW at all? Now let's get down to the facts. Innovation's only notorious achievement in BW is a 2-1 victory over Bisu in one MSL. Otherwise, in 2 years of Proleague he was plaid less than 10 times and had a 50% WR. He wasn't the ACE player of STX soul, this is a flat out lie. According to the facts and Innovation himself in one of his interview, he wasn't an insanely strong player. Rain was a promising upcoming rookie. He had very good records in 2010-2011, though not playing that much. Since he only plaid few games, an all-kill of OZ grossly over-buffed his stats. According to him, he wasn't a very good player in BW and was most of the times getting his ass kicked in training against better players. sOs, I briefly checked his liquipedia results. No individual league achievment. During the last 3 rounds of Proleague 2010-2011 he was 3-5. Even during the 2011-2012 hybrid proleague, he was losing more than half of his BW games. Besides, he never got the rookie of the year award in BW, this is once again a flat out lie. All in all, these 3 players wouldn't have better BW results than 3 players randomly taken out of the Kespa pool. On July 14 2013 18:51 Elroi wrote: Unnecessary Too late. | ||
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
On July 14 2013 19:03 MasterOfPuppets wrote: As far as I know, SiskosGoatee is a map-maker, and back when I browsed the mapping sub-forum regularly I noticed him posting some pretty cool maps, only to be met with responses that it's not similar enough with the boring ol' Ohana/Daybreak etc that every other mapper was making. I think he knows a little bit more about this issue than either of us, to be frank. Also wow, how is this thread still going on. Yeah the map-making community even discusses it a fair bit. I mean there was this time a thing called Daybreak got introduced and then every map was basically Daybreak. Sure, you can say Cloud Kingdom wasn't Daybreak, but it was. Just with a more annoying 3rd, bigger mid-area, and a skyshark. I slammed proleague maps originally for balance, but I mean they still looked so fun. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
I love sc2 though and I am sad to say this. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On July 14 2013 19:48 SiroKO wrote: Now let's get down to the facts. Innovation's only notorious achievement in BW is a 2-1 victory over Bisu in one MSL. Otherwise, in 2 years of Proleague he was plaid less than 10 times and had a 50% WR. I have no idea how you got those numbers.... Record: 61 wins - 52 losses (53.98%) = played less than 10 times? | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:05 MasterOfPuppets wrote: I have no idea how you got those numbers.... Record: 61 wins - 52 losses (53.98%) = played less than 10 times? I've no idea why you refer me to a 4 year interval with "All Team League games" checked when I was specifically talking about 2 years of BW Proleague. My stats are based on pure BW proleague games prior to the Hybrid League Proleague 2012. That's around 10 games, maybe a bit less or more. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:14 SiroKO wrote: Only pure BW proleague games prior to the Hybrid League Proleague 2011. That's around 10 games, maybe a bit more. What are you talking about? Hybrid ProLeague was mid-2012. The last pure BW ProLeague season ended in April 2012. 2011–2012 Proleague Season 1 | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:17 MasterOfPuppets wrote: What are you talking about? Hybrid ProLeague was mid-2012. The last pure BW ProLeague season ended in April 2012. 2011–2012 Proleague Season 1 Stop using logical fallacies, I was obviously talking about the 2 last years of pure BW (2009-2011) (starting period 2009-2010,2011-2012). | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:20 SiroKO wrote: Stop using logical fallacies, I was obviously talking about the 2 last years of pure BW (2009-2011). Are you on PCP or something? What the fuck are you talking about... So when I have stats to back up my claim, which you don't, you call it a logical fallacy? w0t. I'd also like to point out how a guy who joined in 2012 claims to know so much about "pure BW". Rofl. User was warned for this post | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:21 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Are you on PCP or something? What the fuck are you talking about... So when I have stats to back up my claim, which you don't, you call it a logical fallacy? w0t. I'd also like to point out how a guy who joined in 2012 claims to know so much about "pure BW". Rofl. I talked about 2 years of pure BW progaming and you try to disproof me with a 4 years stats with "all team games" checked, then you try to make up an error which isn't there referring to the hybrid league as "2012" though it is referred to as the "2011-2012" Proleague in liquipedia, and fallowing all that ? an ad hominem based on the number of my posts. That's just pitiful. | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:27 SiroKO wrote: I talked about 2 years of pure BW progaming and you try to disproof me with a 4 years stats with "all team games" checked, then you try to refer to the hybrid league as "2012" though it is referred to as the "2011-2012" Proleague in liquipedia, and fallowing all that ? an ad hominem based on the number of my posts. That's just pitiful. Hybrid ProLeague was 2011-2012 Season 2 started May 20th 2012 ended September 22nd 2012. You can find it here. And I'm sure if you had the mental capacity to count them yourself, disregarding STX Masters and SWL 2011, you would still find a lot more than 10 ProLeague matches played.... Hell, you would find a lot more than 10 matches just by looking at the first page of that TLPD link. As for "4 years", I'm sorry, Bogus started his career in 2008, if you don't accept that it's your problem. You lose. Good day sir. | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:30 MasterOfPuppets wrote: Hybrid ProLeague was 2011-2012 Season 2 started May 20th 2012 ended September 22nd 2012. You can find it here. And I'm sure if you had the mental capacity to count them yourself, disregarding STX Masters and SWL 2011, you would still find a lot more than 10 ProLeague matches played.... Hell, you would find a lot more than 10 matches just by looking at the first page of that TLPD link. As for "4 years", I'm sorry, Bogus started his career in 2008, if you don't accept that it's your problem. You lose. Good day sir. I don't waste my time using logical fallacies on the internet. Only truth matters to me. Good day sir. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7799 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On July 14 2013 19:48 SiroKO wrote: Now let's get down to the facts. Innovation's only notorious achievement in BW is a 2-1 victory over Bisu in one MSL. Otherwise, in 2 years of Proleague he was plaid less than 10 times and had a 50% WR. He wasn't the ACE player of STX soul, this is a flat out lie. According to the facts and Innovation himself in one of his interview, he wasn't an insanely strong player. Rain was a promising upcoming rookie. He had very good records in 2010-2011, though not playing that much. Since he only plaid few games, an all-kill of OZ grossly over-buffed his stats. According to him, he wasn't a very good player in BW and was most of the times getting his ass kicked in training against better players. sOs, I briefly checked his liquipedia results. No individual league achievment. During the last 3 rounds of Proleague 2010-2011 he was 3-5. Even during the 2011-2012 hybrid proleague, he was losing more than half of his BW games. Besides, he never got the rookie of the year award in BW, this is once again a flat out lie. All in all, these 3 players wouldn't have better BW results than 3 players randomly taken out of the Kespa pool. Too late. haha I can't believe you are lecturing me (or anyone) on the skill of the BW players... | ||
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