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On July 14 2013 08:32 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 23:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:Now if the article asserts every BW player will dominate, that is going too far, but the best of the best can and most likely will be, if they are not already (soulkey, innovation, Rain, Jangbi) be the best of the best in SC2. Not Jangbi, but that's the point of the Article. It claimed the best BW players would also be the best SC2 players. This didn't happen, the best SC2 players aren't TBLS. Bisu and Stork are doing terribly, Flash is good, but nowhere near his BW level. And JD is okayish. But the finest SC2 KeSPA player is Bogus followed by Soulkey and Rain. it was pretty obvious that TBLS wouldnt dominate sc2. why you may ask? bisu never showed much in the last seasons of proleague. stork did ok-ish but after he suffered the 0-3 loss to fantasy in the osl final and jangbi started winning games again he lost his topspot in khan and jangbi took all the spotlight for himself. if you ask me jds form also started declining before the switch happened. the only player of those 4 that is doing really good is flash. of course he is nowhere near his level in bw but he is still one of the best players around. he has the most wins in proleague for a reason. regarding the now best kespa players in sc2. they had impressive results before the switch to sc2 happened and you could already see that they would be some of the best players in the upcoming seasons
Bisu never showed much in the last seasons of Proleague...? What?
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As much as I feel for the mods trying to keep this discussion reasonable, this thread is and always has been stupid. People are arguing a topic which, even after all these posts and the RIDICULOUS amount of time wasted on this stupidity, is still a wash.
All I see are fanboys constantly spewing out bullshit at other people for being fanboys of a different organization of players. I gotta tell it like it is, this thread is awful. TT1 spoke the truth just a few posts above, with the help of Antonio Banderas.
EDIT: I also feel it would be unfair not to admit that I have laughed so hard I have come to tears, multiple times in this thread. And not even half of the posts I laughed at so hard were even the ones that are meant to be funny derails.
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This thread is so good, it shows TL's old BW bias(now it's a kespa bias), there's quite a few posters getting warned/suspended for calling it out.
There's some gems too, this guy claims the US would win every world cup if american football players decided to play actual football.
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To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/.
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On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/.
MVP could probably still be code S if he was in Korea.
Supernova, Losira, and Bomber are in the ro16 for OSL currently. 1 of them just 2-0'd Flash and is in the ro8 for the 2nd consecutive season.
MC is doing badly atm, but he had a lot of inconsistencies throughout WoL too (still the most consistent protoss over all though, which says something about the players of that race..). He did narrowly lose to RorO in the last WoL season and was looking fairly good at the dawn of HotS (4th at MLG with a 1-2 to Bogus is at least notable). So I wouldn't doubt if he could bounce back. He's done so several times when he's looked down and out.
Nestea is hard to tell since he's rarely ever seen, but given his age and long streak of poor performances I'd admittedly say his chances look grim. Though he did claim 3rd at Iron Squid this year.
Pol just won MLG and outside of Dreamhack he's looked better than ever. I used to hate Polt too.
MMA has been mostly irrelevant for a long time, but Ryung, the black sheep of Slayers who was also doing well back then is kicking ass lately.
MKP is doing badly.
All in all it's not that bad for the old guard.
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On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/.
I dunno, last I checked Supernova, LosirA, Bomber, MVP and MC are still bouncing around near the top.
That said, SC2 history does have a ton of one-hit wonders.
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On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/.
Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2.
Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices.
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On July 14 2013 10:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. MVP could probably still be code S if he was in Korea.
I wouldn't count on it. It's really hard to stay in Code S these days and mvp looks far from consistent these days. Yes, he won WCS EU and came close to beating Innovation, but he still looks weak in terms of gameplay/mechanics rather than tactics/strategy.
Supernova, Losira, and Bomber are in the ro16 for OSL currently. 1 of them just 2-0'd Flash and is in the ro8 for the 2nd consecutive season.
Yes, these players are all good (although Losira keeps losing for some reason).
MC is doing badly atm, but he had a lot of inconsistencies throughout WoL too (still the most consistent protoss over all though, which says something about the players of that race..). He did narrowly lose to RorO in the last WoL season and was looking fairly good at the dawn of HotS (4th at MLG with a 1-2 to Bogus is at least notable). So I wouldn't doubt if he could bounce back. He's done so several times when he's looked down and out.
He could bounce back, but to do so he needs to really focus on Korea rather than staying in Europe all the time. If possible, he should even try to play WCS Korea, because the other Korean Protoss players seem to be way ahead of him.
Nestea is hard to tell since he's rarely ever seen, but given his age and long streak of poor performances I'd admittedly say his chances look grim.
Yeah, I'd say he's done as well. Based on his play in WCS America, I'm...not encouraged. But honestly, Nestea hasn't been top tier for ages now. I guess it was just a matter of time.
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On July 14 2013 10:20 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. MVP could probably still be code S if he was in Korea. I wouldn't count on it. It's really hard to stay in Code S these days and mvp looks far from consistent these days. Yes, he won WCS EU and came close to beating Innovation, but he still looks weak in terms of gameplay/mechanics rather than tactics/strategy. I don't know, I expected Innovation to grossly outmacro Mvp when they met but I kept being amazed by the supply counters how Mvp even on less workers for some reason managed to keep up with Innovation's supply. Macro-wise Mvp definitely is still a beast.
About MC.. never count MC out.. the guy's been counted out for like 5 times already and he always finds a way back to the top.
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I wouldn't count on it. It's really hard to stay in Code S these days and mvp looks far from consistent these days. Yes, he won WCS EU and came close to beating Innovation, but he still looks weak in terms of gameplay/mechanics rather than tactics/strategy.
What you're saying seems logical enough, but I think that it's a mistake to completely count him out. Remember when he beat Squirtle?
"Naniwa is going to beat Mvp; his wrists are completely gone."
"Okay, Mvp seriously has no chance against Parting."
"Well, Squirtle has had a chance to analyze Mvp's last two PvTs, he's gonna crush him."
Mvp has consistently been considered a has-been and consistently beat people who were considered much better than him anyway.
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On July 14 2013 10:18 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2. Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices.
Which strong Kespa BW players transferred their skills into SC2 and are currently dominating the scene? Only one: Soulkey. By your own admission Innovation wasn't top-tier in BW, but neither were Rain or sOs, the only other two BW players whose SC2 performances are deserving of the term "dominant" (and right now, Rain and sOs aren't exactly dominating right now, one already eliminated from the OSL and the other with a pretty big string of losses, particularly PvP). You make it sound like there's a healthy amount of strong BW players whose skills transferred into SC2 and are dominating, but I don't see how that's the case. Perhaps you could name some specifics?
And also: How exactly is Shiori's point even relevant to this article's message? Even though a lot of the old guard has fallen off, a lot of newer ESF and non-ESF/non-Kespa Koreans are still going strong, such as Polt, First, Hyun, and Bomber, just to name a few. It's not like the old guard has fallen off because Kespa players came along and beat them down at their best (if that were the case then Shiori's point would indeed support the article's message, but that's not the case). A lot of them went into slumps unrelated to the Kespa switch. MC's always had his ups and downs. MMA's fall began before the Kespa switch, and so did DRG's and Nestea's. Life's in a slump right now, but it's not like he's only being beaten by Kespa players while he beats everyone else (which would indeed imply that Kespa is truly dominating, but that isn't the case).
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On July 14 2013 10:50 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:18 GinDo wrote:On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2. Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices. Which strong Kespa BW players transferred their skills into SC2 and are currently dominating the scene? Only one: Soulkey. By your own admission Innovation wasn't top-tier in BW, but neither were Rain or sOs, the only other two BW players whose SC2 performances are deserving of the term "dominant" (and right now, Rain and sOs aren't exactly dominating right now, one already eliminated from the OSL and the other with a pretty big string of losses, particularly PvP). You make it sound like there's a healthy amount of strong BW players whose skills transferred into SC2 and are dominating, but I don't see how that's the case. Perhaps you could name some specifics? And also: How exactly is Shiori's point even relevant to this article's message? Even though a lot of the old guard has fallen off, a lot of newer ESF and non-ESF/non-Kespa Koreans are still going strong, such as Polt, First, Hyun, and Bomber, just to name a few. It's not like the old guard has fallen off because Kespa players came along and beat them down at their best (if that were the case then Shiori's point would indeed support the article's message, but that's not the case). A lot of them went into slumps unrelated to the Kespa switch. MC's always had his ups and downs. MMA's fall began before the Kespa switch, and so did DRG's and Nestea's. Life's in a slump right now, but it's not like he's only being beaten by Kespa players while he beats everyone else (which would indeed imply that Kespa is truly dominating, but that isn't the case).
First and Hyun were Kespa players who wanted to switch earlier and transferred to esf teams. Not that it matters.
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On July 14 2013 10:56 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:50 HolyArrow wrote:On July 14 2013 10:18 GinDo wrote:On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2. Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices. Which strong Kespa BW players transferred their skills into SC2 and are currently dominating the scene? Only one: Soulkey. By your own admission Innovation wasn't top-tier in BW, but neither were Rain or sOs, the only other two BW players whose SC2 performances are deserving of the term "dominant" (and right now, Rain and sOs aren't exactly dominating right now, one already eliminated from the OSL and the other with a pretty big string of losses, particularly PvP). You make it sound like there's a healthy amount of strong BW players whose skills transferred into SC2 and are dominating, but I don't see how that's the case. Perhaps you could name some specifics? And also: How exactly is Shiori's point even relevant to this article's message? Even though a lot of the old guard has fallen off, a lot of newer ESF and non-ESF/non-Kespa Koreans are still going strong, such as Polt, First, Hyun, and Bomber, just to name a few. It's not like the old guard has fallen off because Kespa players came along and beat them down at their best (if that were the case then Shiori's point would indeed support the article's message, but that's not the case). A lot of them went into slumps unrelated to the Kespa switch. MC's always had his ups and downs. MMA's fall began before the Kespa switch, and so did DRG's and Nestea's. Life's in a slump right now, but it's not like he's only being beaten by Kespa players while he beats everyone else (which would indeed imply that Kespa is truly dominating, but that isn't the case). First and Hyun were Kespa players who wanted to switch earlier and transferred to esf teams. Not that it matters.
Yeah, I'm well aware of that. But a lot of Kespa fans keep talking about the power of Kespa's level of organization and practice and how it's supposed to contribute to their players dominating the scene, and since Hyun and First transferred so long ago to different organizations (ESF and foreigner), I don't think they're defined as "Kespa" players in the context of this discussion.
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On July 14 2013 10:50 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:18 GinDo wrote:On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2. Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices. Which strong Kespa BW players transferred their skills into SC2 and are currently dominating the scene? Only one: Soulkey. By your own admission Innovation wasn't top-tier in BW, but neither were Rain or sOs, the only other two BW players whose SC2 performances are deserving of the term "dominant" (and right now, Rain and sOs aren't exactly dominating right now, one already eliminated from the OSL and the other with a pretty big string of losses, particularly PvP). You make it sound like there's a healthy amount of strong BW players whose skills transferred into SC2 and are dominating, but I don't see how that's the case. Perhaps you could name some specifics? And also: How exactly is Shiori's point even relevant to this article's message? Even though a lot of the old guard has fallen off, a lot of newer ESF and non-ESF/non-Kespa Koreans are still going strong, such as Polt, First, Hyun, and Bomber, just to name a few. It's not like the old guard has fallen off because Kespa players came along and beat them down at their best (if that were the case then Shiori's point would indeed support the article's message, but that's not the case). A lot of them went into slumps unrelated to the Kespa switch. MC's always had his ups and downs. MMA's fall began before the Kespa switch, and so did DRG's and Nestea's. Life's in a slump right now, but it's not like he's only being beaten by Kespa players while he beats everyone else (which would indeed imply that Kespa is truly dominating, but that isn't the case).
Actually I'd say that it's not so much that the KeSPA players are crushing the esF ones so much as it is that there's just less room for washed up players at this stage of the game. That said, the best players of every race are certainly KeSPA players at the moment. There are people in esF who can compete with anyone of the planet, but there seem to be fewer of them than there are in KeSPA, though some of that is undoubtedly due to the exposure KeSPA players get with regular Proleague games. Also, when I look at the "up and coming" players of each race, as in the ones I feel could make a huge splash, I find myself mostly looking at KeSPA players. Yes, First is really good, but First was always pretty solid, so it remains to be seen whether he maintains this streak. Same with Bomber. On the KeSPA side of things we have players like Fantasy and Jangbi who are looking extremely dangerous and who seem to be improving ridiculously quickly.
Dunno, honestly.
As for training environments, it's pretty obvious that the KeSPA method works and is very well-tested. I think that's why we end up seeing so many names in Proleague that, weeks before, we wouldn't have recognized, but who may have been working their way up through the internal team house rankings unbeknownst to anyone and practicing against the likes of Innovation in a rigorous manner. It feels like it's been a long time since anyone "new" has come out of an esF team.
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On July 14 2013 10:56 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:50 HolyArrow wrote:On July 14 2013 10:18 GinDo wrote:On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2. Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices. Which strong Kespa BW players transferred their skills into SC2 and are currently dominating the scene? Only one: Soulkey. By your own admission Innovation wasn't top-tier in BW, but neither were Rain or sOs, the only other two BW players whose SC2 performances are deserving of the term "dominant" (and right now, Rain and sOs aren't exactly dominating right now, one already eliminated from the OSL and the other with a pretty big string of losses, particularly PvP). You make it sound like there's a healthy amount of strong BW players whose skills transferred into SC2 and are dominating, but I don't see how that's the case. Perhaps you could name some specifics? And also: How exactly is Shiori's point even relevant to this article's message? Even though a lot of the old guard has fallen off, a lot of newer ESF and non-ESF/non-Kespa Koreans are still going strong, such as Polt, First, Hyun, and Bomber, just to name a few. It's not like the old guard has fallen off because Kespa players came along and beat them down at their best (if that were the case then Shiori's point would indeed support the article's message, but that's not the case). A lot of them went into slumps unrelated to the Kespa switch. MC's always had his ups and downs. MMA's fall began before the Kespa switch, and so did DRG's and Nestea's. Life's in a slump right now, but it's not like he's only being beaten by Kespa players while he beats everyone else (which would indeed imply that Kespa is truly dominating, but that isn't the case). First and Hyun were Kespa players who wanted to switch earlier and transferred to esf teams. Not that it matters. This is the hilarious part. Hyun is one of the 300 who could come in and domiante at any point and when he first did the pages of this thread were filled with people asserting he would win a GSL... but now he's no longer part of the KeSPA players apparently?
On July 14 2013 10:59 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:56 StarVe wrote:On July 14 2013 10:50 HolyArrow wrote:On July 14 2013 10:18 GinDo wrote:On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2. Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices. Which strong Kespa BW players transferred their skills into SC2 and are currently dominating the scene? Only one: Soulkey. By your own admission Innovation wasn't top-tier in BW, but neither were Rain or sOs, the only other two BW players whose SC2 performances are deserving of the term "dominant" (and right now, Rain and sOs aren't exactly dominating right now, one already eliminated from the OSL and the other with a pretty big string of losses, particularly PvP). You make it sound like there's a healthy amount of strong BW players whose skills transferred into SC2 and are dominating, but I don't see how that's the case. Perhaps you could name some specifics? And also: How exactly is Shiori's point even relevant to this article's message? Even though a lot of the old guard has fallen off, a lot of newer ESF and non-ESF/non-Kespa Koreans are still going strong, such as Polt, First, Hyun, and Bomber, just to name a few. It's not like the old guard has fallen off because Kespa players came along and beat them down at their best (if that were the case then Shiori's point would indeed support the article's message, but that's not the case). A lot of them went into slumps unrelated to the Kespa switch. MC's always had his ups and downs. MMA's fall began before the Kespa switch, and so did DRG's and Nestea's. Life's in a slump right now, but it's not like he's only being beaten by Kespa players while he beats everyone else (which would indeed imply that Kespa is truly dominating, but that isn't the case). First and Hyun were Kespa players who wanted to switch earlier and transferred to esf teams. Not that it matters. Yeah, I'm well aware of that. But a lot of Kespa fans keep talking about the power of Kespa's level of organization and practice and how it's supposed to contribute to their players dominating the scene, and since Hyun and First transferred so long ago to different organizations (ESF and foreigner), I don't think they're defined as "Kespa" players in the context of this discussion.
The article said very little of practice and mostly spoke of talent though.
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On July 14 2013 11:11 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The article said very little of practice and mostly spoke of talent though.
Eh, I'd say it spoke of both. Ctrl+F "practice" and there are plenty of instances where it's talking about practice.
On July 14 2013 11:02 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 10:50 HolyArrow wrote:On July 14 2013 10:18 GinDo wrote:On July 14 2013 10:02 Shiori wrote:
To be fair, almost none of the esF players who were champions/top level back when this thread was written are still forces today, compared to KeSPA or anyone else :/. Wow, never thought of that. Great point. Those past champs kind of disappeared. And yet we see how strong BW players in Kespa are able to transfer their skills into SC2 and currently dominate the scene. Of course, there are those exemptions, such as Bogus(aka Innovation), who weren't top Tier in BW, but are such a threat in SC2. Personally, I think the power of Kespa players is in their organization and practice. Could esF perform better? Yes, but they need to adopt Kespa level organization in regards to practice. Unfortunately, many players do not like the stress of that style of life, but if you want to be the best you are obligated to make sacrifices. Which strong Kespa BW players transferred their skills into SC2 and are currently dominating the scene? Only one: Soulkey. By your own admission Innovation wasn't top-tier in BW, but neither were Rain or sOs, the only other two BW players whose SC2 performances are deserving of the term "dominant" (and right now, Rain and sOs aren't exactly dominating right now, one already eliminated from the OSL and the other with a pretty big string of losses, particularly PvP). You make it sound like there's a healthy amount of strong BW players whose skills transferred into SC2 and are dominating, but I don't see how that's the case. Perhaps you could name some specifics? And also: How exactly is Shiori's point even relevant to this article's message? Even though a lot of the old guard has fallen off, a lot of newer ESF and non-ESF/non-Kespa Koreans are still going strong, such as Polt, First, Hyun, and Bomber, just to name a few. It's not like the old guard has fallen off because Kespa players came along and beat them down at their best (if that were the case then Shiori's point would indeed support the article's message, but that's not the case). A lot of them went into slumps unrelated to the Kespa switch. MC's always had his ups and downs. MMA's fall began before the Kespa switch, and so did DRG's and Nestea's. Life's in a slump right now, but it's not like he's only being beaten by Kespa players while he beats everyone else (which would indeed imply that Kespa is truly dominating, but that isn't the case). Actually I'd say that it's not so much that the KeSPA players are crushing the esF ones so much as it is that there's just less room for washed up players at this stage of the game. That said, the best players of every race are certainly KeSPA players at the moment. There are people in esF who can compete with anyone of the planet, but there seem to be fewer of them than there are in KeSPA, though some of that is undoubtedly due to the exposure KeSPA players get with regular Proleague games. Also, when I look at the "up and coming" players of each race, as in the ones I feel could make a huge splash, I find myself mostly looking at KeSPA players. Yes, First is really good, but First was always pretty solid, so it remains to be seen whether he maintains this streak. Same with Bomber. On the KeSPA side of things we have players like Fantasy and Jangbi who are looking extremely dangerous and who seem to be improving ridiculously quickly. Dunno, honestly. As for training environments, it's pretty obvious that the KeSPA method works and is very well-tested. I think that's why we end up seeing so many names in Proleague that, weeks before, we wouldn't have recognized, but who may have been working their way up through the internal team house rankings unbeknownst to anyone and practicing against the likes of Innovation in a rigorous manner. It feels like it's been a long time since anyone "new" has come out of an esF team.
Yeah, I definitely agree that the best players of each race are Kespa right now. My problem is that people take the fact that there are maybe 3-4 Kespa players who are standing out over both ESF and lesser Kespa players, and construe that as this article being right, that Kespa is dominating the scene.
This article predicted absurd levels of domination, and some Kespa fans still use the word as if it's a fact now. To me, "domination" means something along the lines of Koreans vs. Foreigners. As in, you could have a tournament full of top-level non-Kespa Koreans and foreigners, with a handful of low-to-mid level Kespa players, and by the Ro8 it would only be those Kespa players left. This is clearly not the case. Low-to-mid level Kespa players are painfully mortal, losing in both WCS AM and WCS EU qualifiers (certainly lag is an issue, but that doesn't explain why other non-Kespa Koreans playing from Korea have done fine), and also losing at MLG, to a foreigner and non-ESF Koreans. Higher level Kespa players are roughly equal to higher level ESF players, and at the very top, you have 3-4 Kespa players as the best players of their races. And that's not domination - that's a tiny group of Kespa players edging out the top non-Kespa players, and right now I'd even say the title of top Protoss is becoming more and more in contention as Rain has lost a majority of his PvPs lately and is generally looking far less godly than he did a month or so ago.
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Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach.
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Did blizzard unwittingly ruin the professional scene, by choosing to release 3 staggered and incomplete expansions instead of releasing a single complete and solid one. This is the reason why I think the level of skill is impossible to determine. There are just too many additions still on going in the game that the fundamental strategy as well as the meta game is forever fluid.
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On July 14 2013 12:34 6NR wrote:
Did blizzard unwittingly ruin the professional scene, by choosing to release 3 staggered and incomplete expansions instead of releasing a single complete and solid one. This is the reason why I think the level of skill is impossible to determine. There are just too many additions still on going in the game that the fundamental strategy as well as the meta game is forever fluid. You think it's a bad thing that new strategies are popping up and the game strays fresh?
Since the mapping community flat out refuses to keep the metagame fresh Blizzard has got to do it honestly.
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On July 14 2013 12:34 6NR wrote:
Did blizzard unwittingly ruin the professional scene, by choosing to release 3 staggered and incomplete expansions instead of releasing a single complete and solid one. This is the reason why I think the level of skill is impossible to determine. There are just too many additions still on going in the game that the fundamental strategy as well as the meta game is forever fluid.
Yeah, because clearly 3 releases staggered over multiple years explains why WoL didn't have a consistent top 10.
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EPT
