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This thread never ceases to amuse. It is just pure win.
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On July 14 2013 17:13 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 12:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 14 2013 12:34 6NR wrote:
Did blizzard unwittingly ruin the professional scene, by choosing to release 3 staggered and incomplete expansions instead of releasing a single complete and solid one. This is the reason why I think the level of skill is impossible to determine. There are just too many additions still on going in the game that the fundamental strategy as well as the meta game is forever fluid. You think it's a bad thing that new strategies are popping up and the game strays fresh? Since the mapping community flat out refuses to keep the metagame fresh Blizzard has got to do it honestly. Woah now, don't blame this on the mapping community. There are a ton of non-standard maps waiting to be played in the Custom Games section on B.Net with all kinds of wonky and crazy shit. No tournament will use them though because they are just that, "Not standard Maps." While tournaments are partly at fault, just look at the results of the TLMC which was judged by mappers. The most standard, boring, not innovative map Frost won it. And Frost has yet to make the splash of CK, at the moment almost no one currently cares about Frost.
blame the tournaments, blame the pro-players for being so stubborn about playing on standard maps, but don't blame the map makers because it definitely isn't their fault. Everyone shares it in my opinion.
Perfect example of this? Frost was part of the MLG Anaheim map pool but you hardly saw it played at all. Why? Players got to pick their own maps besides their starting map and nearly always chose the same 3-4 maps completely neglecting the new ones. Why would they pick it? It's exactly the same as every other map except they haven't played it yet? Back when Icarus was optional in the GSTL (9 maps, Bo7 format) it actually got picked, why, because it's different, you could prepare specific strats on it. But Frost repeats the same old formula and is new. There's no advantage to be gained from preparing and studying frost and then picking it.
Arguments can be made for MLG or the Players but definitely not for the mapmaker. They can't force people to play their maps, only tournaments can do that. They can create an incentive for players to pick their maps by actually making maps different, thereby giving players an advantage who practice them and then pick them. Frost is an extremely standard map which repeats the same tired formula so all you've proven with players don't picking it is that players aren't willing to pick maps which are more of the same.
On July 14 2013 19:03 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 17:13 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 14 2013 12:41 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 14 2013 12:34 6NR wrote:
Did blizzard unwittingly ruin the professional scene, by choosing to release 3 staggered and incomplete expansions instead of releasing a single complete and solid one. This is the reason why I think the level of skill is impossible to determine. There are just too many additions still on going in the game that the fundamental strategy as well as the meta game is forever fluid. You think it's a bad thing that new strategies are popping up and the game strays fresh? Since the mapping community flat out refuses to keep the metagame fresh Blizzard has got to do it honestly. Woah now, don't blame this on the mapping community. There are a ton of non-standard maps waiting to be played in the Custom Games section on B.Net with all kinds of wonky and crazy shit. No tournament will use them though because they are just that, "Not standard Maps." Tournaments need to be the ones that force new maps into the rotation, players will never push for it and the mapmaking community itself has no power over whether or not their maps actually get picked up or not. blame the tournaments, blame the pro-players for being so stubborn about playing on standard maps, but don't blame the map makers because it definitely isn't their fault. Perfect example of this? Frost was part of the MLG Anaheim map pool but you hardly saw it played at all. Why? Players got to pick their own maps besides their starting map and nearly always chose the same 3-4 maps completely neglecting the new ones. Is that Frost's creator's fault? Or is that the fault of the players just simply wanting to play on maps they've practiced over ones they haven't? Or is it the fault of MLG for leaving that choice up to the players in the first place? Arguments can be made for MLG or the Players but definitely not for the mapmaker. They can't force people to play their maps, only tournaments can do that. As far as I know, SiskosGoatee is a map-maker, and back when I browsed the mapping sub-forum regularly I noticed him posting some pretty cool maps, only to be met with responses that it's not similar enough with the boring ol' Ohana/Daybreak etc that every other mapper was making. THis is an exaggeration, they were 'polarizing' at best. That said, there's a definite split amongst mappers in those who are willing to try new stuff and those who believe more in upholding the Daybreak Status-Quo. Those wanting to uphold the Status-Quo are mostly the ones 'in power' though and performing the lobby with tournament for new maps which is why all new maps tried by the RSL etc are the same standard formula. The RSL does include Mammoth, not my favourite map. But its creator is also known to be willing to try new stuff at the least. The IPL new map tournament was a complete farce in my opinion and none of the maps were memorable because they were all the same and apparently the Korean mappers were against it and called them boring.
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On July 14 2013 21:45 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Why was this bumped again? It's already been proven hilariously wrong. Because some people keep insisting it wasn't. Either due to:
- The KeSPA players are "dominating" right now they claim, even when it's blatently false by any stretch of the word "dominating". There are more KeSPA players than eSF players, they are even in WCS KR this isn't even counting that some of the best eSF players aren't in the KR region currently.
- "But the article didn't mean they would dominate, it just meant ..."
- "They aren't dominating, but that's only because SC2's skill ceiling is too low.", basically indeed admitting that the article was wrong, but they can still take the piss on SC2 so it's all fine.
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On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach.
Results!= skill when the tournament scene is fractured artificially by WCS. Rain is absolutely beastly as a Protoss player. Yes, he isn't dominating tournaments in the way that he once was, but he's always a force that you think could win any tournament he enters. Right now, he's in the ro16 in WCS Korea. That's nothing to sneeze at. sOs didn't even make it past the ro32. Meanwhile, this is the first time in 2013 that First has made it into Code S. Is he a great player? Undoubtedly, and he's having a good streak right now. But that doesn't make him somehow altogether better than Rain, and nor does it make Rain no longer a tip top Protoss. Right now, Rain is one of three Protoss players who could actually make the ro8 in the present GSL, and you're telling me he's not one of the top?
MC and Mvp have "remained" but to different degrees. MC has pretty much zero chance of making it in WCS Korea at this point in time, because he can't even win convincingly offline in Europe. This is not the MC of the old days, and it's really clear that he hasn't been playing up to snuff lately. Yes, MC is capable of winning against Innovation with some sweet all-in, but I think you underestimate the potency of random all-ins. Virtually every Protoss player in WCS Korea Premier is capable of beating Innovation; it's just not very likely that they will. Similarly. everyone will hype up MC (who, by the way, is one of my favourite players, so I'm not hating) when he beats Innovation, but will totally ignore every time he loses to Nerchio or some other foreigner or anyone else.
As for Mvp, you're right: the guy's got some kind of starsense that lets him win against all odds. But it's not very consistent. I don't think he'd be able to keep up with WCS Korea Premier just because his injury limits his stamina. In a single series, yes, Mvp has a good chance because he's the King of Wings and the King of Boxes. But over an entire season? He just doesn't have the stamina to win against Innovation-tier players every single series.
Truth is that pretty much every player is going to have their ups and downs. Innovation isn't going to be the king forever, and neither are Soulkey or sOs. But all three of them clearly pushed their respective races to new heights (although I'd argue that sOs is pretty unorthodox and is the most likely to just have his style "figured out"). That's not going to go away.
I don't doubt MC/Mvp's ability to rejuvenate themselves. I do doubt their willingness to do so, though. MC is playing in Europe, which isn't going to let him catchup to Korea. He said so himself back in WoL when he was slumping hard; he said he was going to cut down on the events to stay in Korea and practice, and it worked. As for Mvp, he's really limited by his injury and nothing else. I feel bad for the guy, honestly.
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On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly.
Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy.
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On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy.
It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals.
That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance...
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On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy.
I feel bad for him because he could be Innovation-level right now and could have been so for the past year, but because of his injury, he's relegated to an inconsistent, smart player who can take series off of anyone but who is never the favourite anymore.
It'd be kinda like if Innovation dominates for the next year, then gets a crippling injury and never reaches the same heights again, even though he never really got worse but just failed to improve due to his inability to practice.
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On July 15 2013 00:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy. It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals. That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance...
You could actually make the argument that his injury in fact improved him, as it now forces him to play at an almost purely strategic and intellectual level, rather than just overwhelming players with superior mechanics (which I very much doubt would work today, it's even showing signs of faling for Innovation because he's not innovating strategically (ironically enough)).
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On July 15 2013 02:56 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy. It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals. That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance... You could actually make the argument that his injury in fact improved him, as it now forces him to play at an almost purely strategic and intellectual level, rather than just overwhelming players with superior mechanics (which I very much doubt would work today, it's even showing signs of faling for Innovation because he's not innovating strategically (ironically enough)). On the assumption that this is true (which I don't think it is yet). I never got why people are so enarmoured with mechanics having such a focus. It also leads to less spectatorship. Watching someone win because they just get more army out of no-where with the caster explainig 'The reason JD has 20 supply more than Luxury even though nothing happened is because Jaedong has better mechanics' doesn't really make for an interesting game.
Back in the time of BoxeR when you could still win with strategy, that's just more exciting. No one is going to be excited about someone winning just because they macro better. But amazing moves in the face of certain death like BoxeR and Nal-Ra were to pull out of their ass sometimes is very exciting.
Edit: More specifically, I'd rather have a bigger focus on micro mechanics than on macro mechanics. Micro mechanics are good for spectator value, macro mechanics happen in the background and have very little spectator value.
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On July 15 2013 03:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:56 kollin wrote:On July 15 2013 00:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy. It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals. That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance... You could actually make the argument that his injury in fact improved him, as it now forces him to play at an almost purely strategic and intellectual level, rather than just overwhelming players with superior mechanics (which I very much doubt would work today, it's even showing signs of faling for Innovation because he's not innovating strategically (ironically enough)). On the assumption that this is true (which I don't think it is yet). I never got why people are so enarmoured with mechanics having such a focus. It also leads to less spectatorship. Watching someone win because they just get more army out of no-where with the caster explainig 'The reason JD has 20 supply more than Luxury even though nothing happened is because Jaedong has better mechanics' doesn't really make for an interesting game. Back in the time of BoxeR when you could still win with strategy, that's just more exciting. No one is going to be excited about someone winning just because they macro better. But amazing moves in the face of certain death like BoxeR and Nal-Ra were to pull out of their ass sometimes is very exciting. Edit: More specifically, I'd rather have a bigger focus on micro mechanics than on macro mechanics. Micro mechanics are good for spectator value, macro mechanics happen in the background and have very little spectator value.
they allow for more comebacks
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On July 15 2013 03:51 rift wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 15 2013 02:56 kollin wrote:On July 15 2013 00:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy. It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals. That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance... You could actually make the argument that his injury in fact improved him, as it now forces him to play at an almost purely strategic and intellectual level, rather than just overwhelming players with superior mechanics (which I very much doubt would work today, it's even showing signs of faling for Innovation because he's not innovating strategically (ironically enough)). On the assumption that this is true (which I don't think it is yet). I never got why people are so enarmoured with mechanics having such a focus. It also leads to less spectatorship. Watching someone win because they just get more army out of no-where with the caster explainig 'The reason JD has 20 supply more than Luxury even though nothing happened is because Jaedong has better mechanics' doesn't really make for an interesting game. Back in the time of BoxeR when you could still win with strategy, that's just more exciting. No one is going to be excited about someone winning just because they macro better. But amazing moves in the face of certain death like BoxeR and Nal-Ra were to pull out of their ass sometimes is very exciting. Edit: More specifically, I'd rather have a bigger focus on micro mechanics than on macro mechanics. Micro mechanics are good for spectator value, macro mechanics happen in the background and have very little spectator value. they allow for more comebacks I disagree, comebacks were far more common when they could be strategically achieved in BW.
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On July 15 2013 03:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:56 kollin wrote:On July 15 2013 00:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy. It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals. That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance... You could actually make the argument that his injury in fact improved him, as it now forces him to play at an almost purely strategic and intellectual level, rather than just overwhelming players with superior mechanics (which I very much doubt would work today, it's even showing signs of faling for Innovation because he's not innovating strategically (ironically enough)). On the assumption that this is true (which I don't think it is yet). I never got why people are so enarmoured with mechanics having such a focus. It also leads to less spectatorship. Watching someone win because they just get more army out of no-where with the caster explainig 'The reason JD has 20 supply more than Luxury even though nothing happened is because Jaedong has better mechanics' doesn't really make for an interesting game. Back in the time of BoxeR when you could still win with strategy, that's just more exciting. No one is going to be excited about someone winning just because they macro better. But amazing moves in the face of certain death like BoxeR and Nal-Ra were to pull out of their ass sometimes is very exciting. Edit: More specifically, I'd rather have a bigger focus on micro mechanics than on macro mechanics. Micro mechanics are good for spectator value, macro mechanics happen in the background and have very little spectator value.
Not just in the time of BoxeR... sAviOr crushed all the top Terrans with his brilliant strategy and decision-making, then Bisu came up with a completely new build and crushed sAviOr etc...
But I agree that micro mechanics need to be emphasized more.
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On July 15 2013 03:57 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 15 2013 02:56 kollin wrote:On July 15 2013 00:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy. It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals. That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance... You could actually make the argument that his injury in fact improved him, as it now forces him to play at an almost purely strategic and intellectual level, rather than just overwhelming players with superior mechanics (which I very much doubt would work today, it's even showing signs of faling for Innovation because he's not innovating strategically (ironically enough)). On the assumption that this is true (which I don't think it is yet). I never got why people are so enarmoured with mechanics having such a focus. It also leads to less spectatorship. Watching someone win because they just get more army out of no-where with the caster explainig 'The reason JD has 20 supply more than Luxury even though nothing happened is because Jaedong has better mechanics' doesn't really make for an interesting game. Back in the time of BoxeR when you could still win with strategy, that's just more exciting. No one is going to be excited about someone winning just because they macro better. But amazing moves in the face of certain death like BoxeR and Nal-Ra were to pull out of their ass sometimes is very exciting. Edit: More specifically, I'd rather have a bigger focus on micro mechanics than on macro mechanics. Micro mechanics are good for spectator value, macro mechanics happen in the background and have very little spectator value. Not just in the time of BoxeR... sAviOr crushed all the top Terrans with his brilliant strategy and decision-making, then Bisu came up with a completely new build and crushed sAviOr etc... But I agree that micro mechanics need to be emphasized more. True, but I guess Savior and Oov's strategic mind wasn't as wildly out there as BoxeR's who often did things that were 'just crazy enough to work'.
But yeah, micro is more spectacular.
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On July 15 2013 03:30 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:56 kollin wrote:On July 15 2013 00:54 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 00:35 robson1 wrote:On July 15 2013 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 14 2013 12:16 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Rain honestly hasn't been looking 'godly' since WCS last year. Rain's peak was when he won WCS Asia, after that he hasn't won a single tournament any more. When Rain won the OSL, got to the Ro4 of the GSL and won WCS Asia he legitimately looked unbelievably good. Especially how he took on Oz and Parting in PvP who were known for their excellent PvP. it just looked like 'How on earth can you ever beat this guy.', but then Creator beat him in PvP and after that he looked a lot worse down to even dropping to code B by some guy who's name I don't even remember any more but who did in fact dominate. Rain isn't a tip top Protoss player any more at all. Yes he has an insane proleague winrate but most of that is from the time when he still was probably the best player in the world. Parting, sOs and definitely First are all looking a lot hotter than Rain right now.
Rain's style has been figured out honestly. In PvT he relied a lot on defensive play coupled with harass to beat T's economy into submission and eventually take the game. Terrans have figured out how to deal with that, no longer attacking Rain but playing extra greedy coupled with good defence against harass. Rain's PvP relied on a similar principle and has also been figured out.
Which is exactly the thing with SC2. Every dominant player fades away after a while because they rely on something, some strategic edge which gets figured out. I also feel Innovation is going to fade especially in TvZ. He's been relying on ultra quick thirds coupled with greedy tech which has proven highly susceptible to roach/bane attacks. It remains to be seen if Innovation is still as hot as he is in TvZ if people are going to roach/baneling him every game and he's forced to be less greedy so he can't do his signature biomine parade push at 130 pop any more.
What has honestly remained are two players. Mvp and MC. Not because they are still as super hot as they once were. But because of the sheer span of their ability to continue to claim podium finishes. Sure, MC is no longer the powerhouse that obliterated July to take GSL 5 leaving no single shred of hope for everyone he faced. But for like 4 years already MC for every tournament he enters you're like 'MC is capable fo taking this' and he is. MC can pull a new all in out of his ass and beat Innovation, no doubt about that. Same for Mvp. When we saw him against Innovation when he was leading 2-1, everyone was like 'Mvp is going to take WCS, and he could've. Their buddy Nestea has now pretty much fallen below that level but these two palyers for the entire span of SC2 have constantly re-invigorated their play. MC is slumping now but he will be back, mark my words. MC will continue to claim podia long after Rain is gone. Mvp is Nada, MC is Reach. I feel bad for the guy, honestly. Wait a minute. You feel baaad for MVP. Yeah his Sc2 career has been nothing but a tragedy. It's a tragedy that what pulls him back is a physical injury, otherwise he'd still be winning tournaments. Maybe not as dominantly as he did in the 2nd half of 2011, but he'd still be at the absolute top. The reason he's struggling is not because he's gotten too old, not because he's too gimmicky and got figured out, not because he has bad mechanics, not because everyone else improved so much more than him and not because he's traveling around the world every week. None of those apply to him. The only reason he's struggling this much is because of his wrist injuries, and yet he still won WCS EU, and made Top 4 at both IEM WC and WCS S1 Finals. That's the tragedy, that if not for this factor, which has nothing to do with his play or his mental fortitude, if not for this factor he could become SC2's equivalent of BoxeR, or NaDa, or oov in terms of mind-blowing plays and utter dominance... You could actually make the argument that his injury in fact improved him, as it now forces him to play at an almost purely strategic and intellectual level, rather than just overwhelming players with superior mechanics (which I very much doubt would work today, it's even showing signs of faling for Innovation because he's not innovating strategically (ironically enough)). On the assumption that this is true (which I don't think it is yet). I never got why people are so enarmoured with mechanics having such a focus. It also leads to less spectatorship. Watching someone win because they just get more army out of no-where with the caster explainig 'The reason JD has 20 supply more than Luxury even though nothing happened is because Jaedong has better mechanics' doesn't really make for an interesting game. Back in the time of BoxeR when you could still win with strategy, that's just more exciting. No one is going to be excited about someone winning just because they macro better. But amazing moves in the face of certain death like BoxeR and Nal-Ra were to pull out of their ass sometimes is very exciting. Edit: More specifically, I'd rather have a bigger focus on micro mechanics than on macro mechanics. Micro mechanics are good for spectator value, macro mechanics happen in the background and have very little spectator value.
I wouldn't say I'm "enamoured" with mechanics, but I definitely like to see the average level of play increase, because that's just straight up good for the game. When we're amazed by someone's mechanics, it's usually because they're head and shoulders above the average mechanical level of the game. It's kinda like if you look at sports: modern training regimes have made athletes (mostly) more powerful, faster, and longer-lasting, which means that the average level has gone up. This doesn't mean that the 1950 era of sports had any less talent, or the Pele isn't still the greatest soccer player of all time, but it also doesn't mean that we can't be amazed at just how fast Usain Bolt is able to run.
Similarly, I'm not trying to shit on MKP when I say that his 2010-era micro was nothing special given today's micro, but it was still a massive innovation for the time. In the case of Mvp, the guy has always been a really smart strategic player, but the sad fact is that he lacks the mechanics to play consistently. And while this does suck, lamenting it doesn't mean we're holding mechanics too high; it just means that mechanics are an important part of the game which deserves recognition. It's the same reason that Wayne Gretzky wouldn't be considered the greatest present player if he came out of retirement today and started to play in the NHL. He's too old, and his body just isn't there anymore. His hockey sense and stick control are probably just as good as they were (since those things are mostly mental/fine motor control rather than strength) but nevertheless they're not all there is to the sport.
Besides, it's really silly to pretend like modern Sc2 or later eras of BW don't/didn't have continuously evolving strategy, it's just that some general rules got hashed out really early. Imagine what happened when the first strategist discovered that charging a group of bowmen with heavy cavalry is really effective. It didn't mean that later strategies weren't innovations just because this one really huge and basic thing was discovered.
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On July 15 2013 04:19 Shiori wrote:
In the case of Mvp, the guy has always been a really smart strategic player, but the sad fact is that he lacks the mechanics to play consistently.
I think you're mistaking him for NesTea.
Mvp, if not for his wrist injuries, would still be one of the best macro/mechanical players, in fact he's proven it so many times already...
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On July 15 2013 04:28 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:19 Shiori wrote:
In the case of Mvp, the guy has always been a really smart strategic player, but the sad fact is that he lacks the mechanics to play consistently. I think you're mistaking him for NesTea. Mvp, if not for his wrist injuries, would still be one of the best macro/mechanical players, in fact he's proven it so many times already...
In 2011. Who knows what he'd be like now, and it's dumb to try and make predictions.
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On July 15 2013 04:37 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:28 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 04:19 Shiori wrote:
In the case of Mvp, the guy has always been a really smart strategic player, but the sad fact is that he lacks the mechanics to play consistently. I think you're mistaking him for NesTea. Mvp, if not for his wrist injuries, would still be one of the best macro/mechanical players, in fact he's proven it so many times already... In 2011. Who knows what he'd be like now, and it's dumb to try and make predictions.
Yeah, it's not like he won a GSL and an IEM since 2011. Oh wait...
Plus finals appearance vs Life.
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On July 15 2013 04:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:37 kollin wrote:On July 15 2013 04:28 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 04:19 Shiori wrote:
In the case of Mvp, the guy has always been a really smart strategic player, but the sad fact is that he lacks the mechanics to play consistently. I think you're mistaking him for NesTea. Mvp, if not for his wrist injuries, would still be one of the best macro/mechanical players, in fact he's proven it so many times already... In 2011. Who knows what he'd be like now, and it's dumb to try and make predictions. Yeah, it's not like he won a GSL and an IEM since 2011. Oh wait... Plus finals appearance vs Life.
Yeah it's not like that was due to his mechanical skill.
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On July 15 2013 04:40 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 04:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 04:37 kollin wrote:On July 15 2013 04:28 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On July 15 2013 04:19 Shiori wrote:
In the case of Mvp, the guy has always been a really smart strategic player, but the sad fact is that he lacks the mechanics to play consistently. I think you're mistaking him for NesTea. Mvp, if not for his wrist injuries, would still be one of the best macro/mechanical players, in fact he's proven it so many times already... In 2011. Who knows what he'd be like now, and it's dumb to try and make predictions. Yeah, it's not like he won a GSL and an IEM since 2011. Oh wait... Plus finals appearance vs Life. Yeah it's not like that was due to his mechanical skill.
Not alone, no, but to deny it played a factor in it is absurd.
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EPT
