• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:12
CEST 10:12
KST 17:12
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy5uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event14Serral wins EWC 202549Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple5SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments5[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time How do I participate in the McDVoice survey online RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Lambo Talks: The Future of SC2 and more...
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SEL Masters #5 - Korea vs Russia (SC Evo) Enki Epic Series #5 - TaeJa vs Classic (SC Evo) ByuN vs TaeJa Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch Global Tourney for College Students in September
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather
Brood War
General
ASL20 Pre-season Tier List ranking! BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September BW General Discussion ASL Season 20 Ro24 Groups BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
KCM 2025 Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Bitcoin discussion thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming After Dark: Poor Slee…
TrAiDoS
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 563 users

The Elephant in the Room - Page 323

Forum Index > Final Edits
6513 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 321 322 323 324 325 326 Next
TailerDderden
Profile Joined August 2013
3 Posts
August 25 2013 12:25 GMT
#6441
--- Nuked ---
electronic voyeur
Profile Joined October 2012
United States133 Posts
August 25 2013 15:27 GMT
#6442
So...
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
August 25 2013 15:30 GMT
#6443
So is this ever going to get locked?

We really don't need all these random bumps whenever X player wins or loses...
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
Eliezar
Profile Joined May 2004
United States481 Posts
August 26 2013 03:55 GMT
#6444
Perhaps the Elephant in the room was Bomber all this time? Honestly, I think there was a great deal of underestimation by the broodwar fanbase about how much different the skillset is for SC2 than it was for BW. BW was about being able to select mass buildings, build stuff, and change rallies really fast where as SC2 seems to be much more about playing the game rather than fighting against the constraints.

Watching players like Bomber is a ton of fun though and I've thought that since he came on the scene. Something about his endless pushes (reminds me of the Boxer vs Garimto game where they fought at Garimto's expo from when it was warping in until literally when it was mined out in the OSL or whatever it was final). That shuttle/zealot/stalker vs vulture/tank 10 minute microfest was amazing, but some of the bomber pushes feel the quite similar.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-26 04:34:41
August 26 2013 04:34 GMT
#6445
On August 26 2013 12:55 Eliezar wrote:
Perhaps the Elephant in the room was Bomber all this time? Honestly, I think there was a great deal of underestimation by the broodwar fanbase about how much different the skillset is for SC2 than it was for BW. BW was about being able to select mass buildings, build stuff, and change rallies really fast where as SC2 seems to be much more about playing the game rather than fighting against the constraints.

Watching players like Bomber is a ton of fun though and I've thought that since he came on the scene. Something about his endless pushes (reminds me of the Boxer vs Garimto game where they fought at Garimto's expo from when it was warping in until literally when it was mined out in the OSL or whatever it was final). That shuttle/zealot/stalker vs vulture/tank 10 minute microfest was amazing, but some of the bomber pushes feel the quite similar.


Registered in 2004, 31 posts. wow.

I agree with your assessment.
Jerinos
Profile Joined November 2012
United States3 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-26 18:50:06
August 26 2013 17:32 GMT
#6446
The point of this article wasn't 'KeSPA will be better', the point of the article was 'KeSPA will absolutely dominate to the point of maybe 1 non BW a-teamer left in code S' surely that didn't happen.


No, the point of the article is that he thought Jaedong, Flash and Bisu could switch to SC2 and dominate within a week. I only kept reading through that article because it was just so damn funny.

Maybe these people just haven't played Brood War for awhile, but I can't see how anyone would assume the skill set is anywhere completely transferable to SC2 because the games are just so shockingly different in execution.

The funniest part is that most of the current KeSPA players who have been doing the best, like Innovation, Rain, RorO etc. weren't Brood War elites, either. That just hammers home how ridiculous this article is and the idea that being good in one game won't mean you'll be good in the other.

I'm actually surprised the Brood War elites are having as much success as they have been, which has mostly only come from less competitive foreign tournaments. Probably, their insane practice regimen and dedication is giving them their current success, but I don't see them dominating the scene at any point like they did in Brood War, aside from maybe Jaedong if he's still as dedicated a year from now.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
August 26 2013 19:11 GMT
#6447
On August 27 2013 02:32 Jerinos wrote:
Show nested quote +
The point of this article wasn't 'KeSPA will be better', the point of the article was 'KeSPA will absolutely dominate to the point of maybe 1 non BW a-teamer left in code S' surely that didn't happen.


No, the point of the article is that he thought Jaedong, Flash and Bisu could switch to SC2 and dominate within a week. I only kept reading through that article because it was just so damn funny.

Maybe these people just haven't played Brood War for awhile, but I can't see how anyone would assume the skill set is anywhere completely transferable to SC2 because the games are just so shockingly different in execution.

The funniest part is that most of the current KeSPA players who have been doing the best, like Innovation, Rain, RorO etc. weren't Brood War elites, either. That just hammers home how ridiculous this article is and the idea that being good in one game won't mean you'll be good in the other.

I'm actually surprised the Brood War elites are having as much success as they have been, which has mostly only come from less competitive foreign tournaments. Probably, their insane practice regimen and dedication is giving them their current success, but I don't see them dominating the scene at any point like they did in Brood War, aside from maybe Jaedong if he's still as dedicated a year from now.


At the rate Jaedong's improving, I'd be astounded if he didn't win a major tournament within a year from now. Funny thing is that he's not even a part of the Kespa training system anymore, and he's improving at a faster rate than other BW elites.
BAdGer_
Profile Joined January 2010
United States80 Posts
August 27 2013 02:06 GMT
#6448
It's ironic that this article was just made highly irrelevant by 2 of the Players he mentions specifically
WCS s2 finals.... I think that WC3 skills transferred better than BW
It's obvious that there are differences between the 2 starcrafts
Not just 12 years and what that means, even the idea that the races have similar playstyles in the 2 games
It may very well be that a top S class BW player would be more crippled by his deep game understanding of BW and those subconscious associations with "same" units in SC2 when in fact this counterproductive
It may be the case that top level players practice better but the tiny edges they spent hundreds if not thousands of hours perfecting in BW are now completely and utterly gone
When I first read this article years ago I agreed with it wholeheartedly, but after these finals I see the fallacy of holding such a position
The End Is Coming--when SCBW dies WWIII will break out--you heard it here first
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
August 28 2013 12:24 GMT
#6449
On August 27 2013 04:11 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2013 02:32 Jerinos wrote:
The point of this article wasn't 'KeSPA will be better', the point of the article was 'KeSPA will absolutely dominate to the point of maybe 1 non BW a-teamer left in code S' surely that didn't happen.


No, the point of the article is that he thought Jaedong, Flash and Bisu could switch to SC2 and dominate within a week. I only kept reading through that article because it was just so damn funny.

Maybe these people just haven't played Brood War for awhile, but I can't see how anyone would assume the skill set is anywhere completely transferable to SC2 because the games are just so shockingly different in execution.

The funniest part is that most of the current KeSPA players who have been doing the best, like Innovation, Rain, RorO etc. weren't Brood War elites, either. That just hammers home how ridiculous this article is and the idea that being good in one game won't mean you'll be good in the other.

I'm actually surprised the Brood War elites are having as much success as they have been, which has mostly only come from less competitive foreign tournaments. Probably, their insane practice regimen and dedication is giving them their current success, but I don't see them dominating the scene at any point like they did in Brood War, aside from maybe Jaedong if he's still as dedicated a year from now.


At the rate Jaedong's improving, I'd be astounded if he didn't win a major tournament within a year from now. Funny thing is that he's not even a part of the Kespa training system anymore, and he's improving at a faster rate than other BW elites.
Winning a tournament in a year is a bit below JD's BW level though, arguably the best Zerg of all times though some Savior fans might disagree with that.

The tournaments he's winning also aren't WCS KR. And let's face it, the global finals are probably an easier tournament than WCS KR.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 02 2013 15:20 GMT
#6450
It's pretty clear by the way with Soul going to eSF and Prime, IM and MVP going to KeSPA that at this point the KeSPA/eSF distinction is so garbled that it stops making sense.

One has to point out that the original intend of the article and reflexion in the older comments came down to 'The people still playing BW are much more talented at RTS games in general.' When ForGG didn't have quite the success people expected him to have this was changed to 'KeSPA training regimen is just better.'. Many people from inside the scene however have repeatedly asserted that thatr is a myth and there is no real big difference between teamhouse operation of KeSPA and eSF teams. I don't think Soul is magically going to train less now that they join eSF and IM and Prime more, the parent organization does not control the training schedule, the proteams themselves do, I doubt intensity of training runs across organizatorial lines.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1921 Posts
September 03 2013 16:06 GMT
#6451
It's pretty clear by the way with Soul going to eSF and Prime, IM and MVP going to KeSPA that at this point the KeSPA/eSF distinction is so garbled that it stops making sense.

One has to point out that the original intend of the article and reflexion in the older comments came down to 'The people still playing BW are much more talented at RTS games in general.' When ForGG didn't have quite the success people expected him to have this was changed to 'KeSPA training regimen is just better.'. Many people from inside the scene however have repeatedly asserted that thatr is a myth and there is no real big difference between teamhouse operation of KeSPA and eSF teams. I don't think Soul is magically going to train less now that they join eSF and IM and Prime more, the parent organization does not control the training schedule, the proteams themselves do, I doubt intensity of training runs across organizatorial lines.


Which is a little sad because some controversy makes the scene more exciting. The only thing left to discuss seems to be if Flash and Jaedong ever get a title.
Buff the siegetank
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 06 2013 10:35 GMT
#6452
There is nothing to 'discuss' to any objective person pertaining this article and technically it should've been over and disproven the moment ForGG and Hyun didn't go on to dominate. But the article's meaning has consistently been altered by its supporters to keep it alive and continue to defend it. The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-06 10:38:33
September 06 2013 10:38 GMT
#6453
On September 06 2013 19:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.


Way to fan the flames while sounding extremely bitter and resentful at the same time. Dunno why you feel such a strong urge to win random internet arguments but please stop bumping this.

Just let this thread die already...
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 06 2013 11:34 GMT
#6454
It's not a 'random' argument though, I have a vitriolic dislike for people who see what they want to see or what people say they should see.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
September 06 2013 15:45 GMT
#6455
On September 06 2013 19:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 19:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.


Way to fan the flames while sounding extremely bitter and resentful at the same time. Dunno why you feel such a strong urge to win random internet arguments but please stop bumping this.

Just let this thread die already...


This thread will never die. I will always remind waxy to put it back into SC2 General when it slides out of the front page of forums :p
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
painkilla
Profile Joined June 2013
United States695 Posts
September 06 2013 18:32 GMT
#6456
On September 06 2013 19:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 19:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.


Way to fan the flames while sounding extremely bitter and resentful at the same time. Dunno why you feel such a strong urge to win random internet arguments but please stop bumping this.

Just let this thread die already...


Why would we let this thread die.
Supernova | TY | Polt | Innovation | forGG | Lucifron | Happy
garrett345
Profile Joined August 2012
Czech Republic12 Posts
September 09 2013 09:26 GMT
#6457
Real elephant in the room is that this game is simply not enjoyable to play. It is just obsession and addiction for people with sad life. Ban me for truth.

User was banned for this post.
asdfasdf
Phantom_Sky
Profile Joined August 2010
Hong Kong512 Posts
September 14 2013 23:55 GMT
#6458
so Bisu retires, Flash lost to Dimaga, eliminated in group stage by Yugioh and MMA

Jaedong getting silver for everything...
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 15 2013 10:09 GMT
#6459
I feel at this point Intrigue owes it to the people and players he criticized to write a follow up article. Either he further defends his stance or he admits his wrongness and explains why he was wrong. Certainly with how it has gone it is deserving of further elaboration of Intrigue.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
MiraMax
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany532 Posts
September 15 2013 17:34 GMT
#6460
On September 15 2013 19:09 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I feel at this point Intrigue owes it to the people and players he criticized me to write a follow up article. Either he further defends his stance or he better admits his wrongness and explains why he was wrong. Certainly with how it has gone it is I am deserving of further elaboration of apologies from Intrigue.


Here I fixed your post for you so that everybody understands what you really want to say.

Cheers!
Prev 1 321 322 323 324 325 326 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 48m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SC2Nice 11
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 15283
ggaemo 485
Leta 219
actioN 99
Sharp 31
Backho 27
Aegong 22
ajuk12(nOOB) 19
soO 18
SilentControl 17
[ Show more ]
yabsab 10
Bale 9
NaDa 8
scan(afreeca) 6
Hm[arnc] 5
sorry 4
Dota 2
XcaliburYe222
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1073
shoxiejesuss437
olofmeister246
allub116
Other Games
summit1g7144
gofns2518
FrodaN1665
WinterStarcraft657
ceh9117
Happy114
Fuzer 113
Pyrionflax112
Mew2King63
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick851
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 11
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH389
• davetesta36
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2h 48m
The PondCast
1d 1h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 2h
Replay Cast
1d 15h
LiuLi Cup
2 days
Online Event
3 days
SC Evo League
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
CSO Contender
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Summer Champion…
4 days
SC Evo League
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Sharp vs Ample
Larva vs Stork
Wardi Open
5 days
RotterdaM Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
JyJ vs TY
Bisu vs Speed
WardiTV Summer Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

StarCon 2025 Philadelphia
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 20
CSLAN 3
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.