• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:39
CEST 06:39
KST 13:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach2[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon101Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Grand Finals ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach Bot on ladder an AI researcher's take on the ladder bot BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCraft Human 'N' AI League
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 1
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread All you football fans (soccer)!
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11559 users

The Elephant in the Room - Page 323

Forum Index > Final Edits
6514 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 321 322 323 324 325 326 Next
TailerDderden
Profile Joined August 2013
3 Posts
August 25 2013 12:25 GMT
#6441
--- Nuked ---
electronic voyeur
Profile Joined October 2012
United States133 Posts
August 25 2013 15:27 GMT
#6442
So...
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
August 25 2013 15:30 GMT
#6443
So is this ever going to get locked?

We really don't need all these random bumps whenever X player wins or loses...
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
Eliezar
Profile Joined May 2004
United States481 Posts
August 26 2013 03:55 GMT
#6444
Perhaps the Elephant in the room was Bomber all this time? Honestly, I think there was a great deal of underestimation by the broodwar fanbase about how much different the skillset is for SC2 than it was for BW. BW was about being able to select mass buildings, build stuff, and change rallies really fast where as SC2 seems to be much more about playing the game rather than fighting against the constraints.

Watching players like Bomber is a ton of fun though and I've thought that since he came on the scene. Something about his endless pushes (reminds me of the Boxer vs Garimto game where they fought at Garimto's expo from when it was warping in until literally when it was mined out in the OSL or whatever it was final). That shuttle/zealot/stalker vs vulture/tank 10 minute microfest was amazing, but some of the bomber pushes feel the quite similar.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-26 04:34:41
August 26 2013 04:34 GMT
#6445
On August 26 2013 12:55 Eliezar wrote:
Perhaps the Elephant in the room was Bomber all this time? Honestly, I think there was a great deal of underestimation by the broodwar fanbase about how much different the skillset is for SC2 than it was for BW. BW was about being able to select mass buildings, build stuff, and change rallies really fast where as SC2 seems to be much more about playing the game rather than fighting against the constraints.

Watching players like Bomber is a ton of fun though and I've thought that since he came on the scene. Something about his endless pushes (reminds me of the Boxer vs Garimto game where they fought at Garimto's expo from when it was warping in until literally when it was mined out in the OSL or whatever it was final). That shuttle/zealot/stalker vs vulture/tank 10 minute microfest was amazing, but some of the bomber pushes feel the quite similar.


Registered in 2004, 31 posts. wow.

I agree with your assessment.
Jerinos
Profile Joined November 2012
United States3 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-26 18:50:06
August 26 2013 17:32 GMT
#6446
The point of this article wasn't 'KeSPA will be better', the point of the article was 'KeSPA will absolutely dominate to the point of maybe 1 non BW a-teamer left in code S' surely that didn't happen.


No, the point of the article is that he thought Jaedong, Flash and Bisu could switch to SC2 and dominate within a week. I only kept reading through that article because it was just so damn funny.

Maybe these people just haven't played Brood War for awhile, but I can't see how anyone would assume the skill set is anywhere completely transferable to SC2 because the games are just so shockingly different in execution.

The funniest part is that most of the current KeSPA players who have been doing the best, like Innovation, Rain, RorO etc. weren't Brood War elites, either. That just hammers home how ridiculous this article is and the idea that being good in one game won't mean you'll be good in the other.

I'm actually surprised the Brood War elites are having as much success as they have been, which has mostly only come from less competitive foreign tournaments. Probably, their insane practice regimen and dedication is giving them their current success, but I don't see them dominating the scene at any point like they did in Brood War, aside from maybe Jaedong if he's still as dedicated a year from now.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
August 26 2013 19:11 GMT
#6447
On August 27 2013 02:32 Jerinos wrote:
Show nested quote +
The point of this article wasn't 'KeSPA will be better', the point of the article was 'KeSPA will absolutely dominate to the point of maybe 1 non BW a-teamer left in code S' surely that didn't happen.


No, the point of the article is that he thought Jaedong, Flash and Bisu could switch to SC2 and dominate within a week. I only kept reading through that article because it was just so damn funny.

Maybe these people just haven't played Brood War for awhile, but I can't see how anyone would assume the skill set is anywhere completely transferable to SC2 because the games are just so shockingly different in execution.

The funniest part is that most of the current KeSPA players who have been doing the best, like Innovation, Rain, RorO etc. weren't Brood War elites, either. That just hammers home how ridiculous this article is and the idea that being good in one game won't mean you'll be good in the other.

I'm actually surprised the Brood War elites are having as much success as they have been, which has mostly only come from less competitive foreign tournaments. Probably, their insane practice regimen and dedication is giving them their current success, but I don't see them dominating the scene at any point like they did in Brood War, aside from maybe Jaedong if he's still as dedicated a year from now.


At the rate Jaedong's improving, I'd be astounded if he didn't win a major tournament within a year from now. Funny thing is that he's not even a part of the Kespa training system anymore, and he's improving at a faster rate than other BW elites.
BAdGer_
Profile Joined January 2010
United States80 Posts
August 27 2013 02:06 GMT
#6448
It's ironic that this article was just made highly irrelevant by 2 of the Players he mentions specifically
WCS s2 finals.... I think that WC3 skills transferred better than BW
It's obvious that there are differences between the 2 starcrafts
Not just 12 years and what that means, even the idea that the races have similar playstyles in the 2 games
It may very well be that a top S class BW player would be more crippled by his deep game understanding of BW and those subconscious associations with "same" units in SC2 when in fact this counterproductive
It may be the case that top level players practice better but the tiny edges they spent hundreds if not thousands of hours perfecting in BW are now completely and utterly gone
When I first read this article years ago I agreed with it wholeheartedly, but after these finals I see the fallacy of holding such a position
The End Is Coming--when SCBW dies WWIII will break out--you heard it here first
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
August 28 2013 12:24 GMT
#6449
On August 27 2013 04:11 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2013 02:32 Jerinos wrote:
The point of this article wasn't 'KeSPA will be better', the point of the article was 'KeSPA will absolutely dominate to the point of maybe 1 non BW a-teamer left in code S' surely that didn't happen.


No, the point of the article is that he thought Jaedong, Flash and Bisu could switch to SC2 and dominate within a week. I only kept reading through that article because it was just so damn funny.

Maybe these people just haven't played Brood War for awhile, but I can't see how anyone would assume the skill set is anywhere completely transferable to SC2 because the games are just so shockingly different in execution.

The funniest part is that most of the current KeSPA players who have been doing the best, like Innovation, Rain, RorO etc. weren't Brood War elites, either. That just hammers home how ridiculous this article is and the idea that being good in one game won't mean you'll be good in the other.

I'm actually surprised the Brood War elites are having as much success as they have been, which has mostly only come from less competitive foreign tournaments. Probably, their insane practice regimen and dedication is giving them their current success, but I don't see them dominating the scene at any point like they did in Brood War, aside from maybe Jaedong if he's still as dedicated a year from now.


At the rate Jaedong's improving, I'd be astounded if he didn't win a major tournament within a year from now. Funny thing is that he's not even a part of the Kespa training system anymore, and he's improving at a faster rate than other BW elites.
Winning a tournament in a year is a bit below JD's BW level though, arguably the best Zerg of all times though some Savior fans might disagree with that.

The tournaments he's winning also aren't WCS KR. And let's face it, the global finals are probably an easier tournament than WCS KR.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 02 2013 15:20 GMT
#6450
It's pretty clear by the way with Soul going to eSF and Prime, IM and MVP going to KeSPA that at this point the KeSPA/eSF distinction is so garbled that it stops making sense.

One has to point out that the original intend of the article and reflexion in the older comments came down to 'The people still playing BW are much more talented at RTS games in general.' When ForGG didn't have quite the success people expected him to have this was changed to 'KeSPA training regimen is just better.'. Many people from inside the scene however have repeatedly asserted that thatr is a myth and there is no real big difference between teamhouse operation of KeSPA and eSF teams. I don't think Soul is magically going to train less now that they join eSF and IM and Prime more, the parent organization does not control the training schedule, the proteams themselves do, I doubt intensity of training runs across organizatorial lines.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
2007 Posts
September 03 2013 16:06 GMT
#6451
It's pretty clear by the way with Soul going to eSF and Prime, IM and MVP going to KeSPA that at this point the KeSPA/eSF distinction is so garbled that it stops making sense.

One has to point out that the original intend of the article and reflexion in the older comments came down to 'The people still playing BW are much more talented at RTS games in general.' When ForGG didn't have quite the success people expected him to have this was changed to 'KeSPA training regimen is just better.'. Many people from inside the scene however have repeatedly asserted that thatr is a myth and there is no real big difference between teamhouse operation of KeSPA and eSF teams. I don't think Soul is magically going to train less now that they join eSF and IM and Prime more, the parent organization does not control the training schedule, the proteams themselves do, I doubt intensity of training runs across organizatorial lines.


Which is a little sad because some controversy makes the scene more exciting. The only thing left to discuss seems to be if Flash and Jaedong ever get a title.
Buff the siegetank
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 06 2013 10:35 GMT
#6452
There is nothing to 'discuss' to any objective person pertaining this article and technically it should've been over and disproven the moment ForGG and Hyun didn't go on to dominate. But the article's meaning has consistently been altered by its supporters to keep it alive and continue to defend it. The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-06 10:38:33
September 06 2013 10:38 GMT
#6453
On September 06 2013 19:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.


Way to fan the flames while sounding extremely bitter and resentful at the same time. Dunno why you feel such a strong urge to win random internet arguments but please stop bumping this.

Just let this thread die already...
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 06 2013 11:34 GMT
#6454
It's not a 'random' argument though, I have a vitriolic dislike for people who see what they want to see or what people say they should see.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
September 06 2013 15:45 GMT
#6455
On September 06 2013 19:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 19:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.


Way to fan the flames while sounding extremely bitter and resentful at the same time. Dunno why you feel such a strong urge to win random internet arguments but please stop bumping this.

Just let this thread die already...


This thread will never die. I will always remind waxy to put it back into SC2 General when it slides out of the front page of forums :p
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
painkilla
Profile Joined June 2013
United States695 Posts
September 06 2013 18:32 GMT
#6456
On September 06 2013 19:38 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2013 19:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The only thing left to discuss is how some people can seriously look in the mirror without disgust having such trouble admitting they were wrong.


Way to fan the flames while sounding extremely bitter and resentful at the same time. Dunno why you feel such a strong urge to win random internet arguments but please stop bumping this.

Just let this thread die already...


Why would we let this thread die.
Supernova | TY | Polt | Innovation | forGG | Lucifron | Happy
garrett345
Profile Joined August 2012
Czech Republic12 Posts
September 09 2013 09:26 GMT
#6457
Real elephant in the room is that this game is simply not enjoyable to play. It is just obsession and addiction for people with sad life. Ban me for truth.

User was banned for this post.
asdfasdf
Phantom_Sky
Profile Joined August 2010
Hong Kong512 Posts
September 14 2013 23:55 GMT
#6458
so Bisu retires, Flash lost to Dimaga, eliminated in group stage by Yugioh and MMA

Jaedong getting silver for everything...
SiskosGoatee
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Albania1482 Posts
September 15 2013 10:09 GMT
#6459
I feel at this point Intrigue owes it to the people and players he criticized to write a follow up article. Either he further defends his stance or he admits his wrongness and explains why he was wrong. Certainly with how it has gone it is deserving of further elaboration of Intrigue.
WCS Apartheid cometh, all hail the casual audience, death to merit and hard work.
MiraMax
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany532 Posts
September 15 2013 17:34 GMT
#6460
On September 15 2013 19:09 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I feel at this point Intrigue owes it to the people and players he criticized me to write a follow up article. Either he further defends his stance or he better admits his wrongness and explains why he was wrong. Certainly with how it has gone it is I am deserving of further elaboration of apologies from Intrigue.


Here I fixed your post for you so that everybody understands what you really want to say.

Cheers!
Prev 1 321 322 323 324 325 326 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
2026 GSTL: Grand Finals
CranKy Ducklings130
LiquipediaDiscussion
OSC
23:00
OSC Masters Cup #151 Qualifier
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 188
NeuroSwarm 176
StarCraft: Brood War
BeSt 177
hero 111
sorry 47
Mind 29
Bale 20
Terrorterran 18
ZergMaN 12
Icarus 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1017
League of Legends
JimRising 717
Counter-Strike
taco 425
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King183
Other Games
summit1g9903
Maynarde198
ArmadaUGS41
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick484
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 7
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH242
• Hupsaiya 131
• practicex 46
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota289
League of Legends
• Rush1268
• Stunt215
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
5h 21m
Soma vs Jaedong
WardiTV Weekly
6h 21m
Monday Night Weeklies
11h 21m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 5h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 5h
Leta vs Soulkey
PiGosaur Cup
1d 19h
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-27
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.