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On July 12 2013 15:46 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:40 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 15:29 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 15:26 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 15:02 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 14:59 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 12 2013 13:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?" Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!" Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.' Looking through the list of GSL winners for people who never played broodwar professionally for a kespa team now: All the people who won gold more than once played for kespa at one point. Half the people who won once did. Both people who won silver more than once played for kespa, more than half of the people who won once did. Dunnu seems like they did more than pretty well considering the huge influx of competition from completely different games like wc3 of CoH. But yeah turned out that _among_ the people with the RTS talent and drive to succeed at professional bw there wasn't any particular correlation between bw success and sc2 success. But there is most certainly a very strong correlation between sc2 success and "having played bw for kespa at one point". Much more so than for other games or other organisations. that's the korean factor coming into play, not the BW factor lol i.e. if you're good at s2, you're probably a korean. if you're a korean who games, you've probably played BW at some point. not particularly strong causation i disagree. why is it still in contention that the kespa training regimen and the mechanical skill required to play broodwar were primarily responsible for kespa doing as well as they did in sc2? when kespa first switched, kespa players were taking games and even winning vs people who have played the game for far longer based purely on their mechanics and familiarity with basic rts strategies in spite of not having sc2-specific experience and knowledge. about the training, even alive mentioned specifically in an interview that 'they' were at a disadvantage because kespa players train much more than them. sure, it didn't lead to results as drastic as this article predicted, but to completely dismiss these points is just absurd. i don't disagree with what you said, i think that's the primary reason why they are doing better now, but that was not my argument at all to the other guy lolol i reread your post. i believe you were actually arguing that indirectly. you said 'korean factor' and not 'broodwar factor'. you don't acknowledge that these players' experience in playing bw competitively, with kespa training regimen no less, played a major role in developing their skills and fundamentals for sc2, hence leading to their outstanding results. is this correct? i disagree that kespa training was a factor for sc2 results before kespa actually switched. the scene was very lax then, koreans got away with very little practice.
i'm honestly not sure what your exact stand is. i'd just say that mvp said himself that he became #1 ladder player in just a month after he switched to sc2. i don't remember the exact details but i would think he won his 1st championship not long after. i'd say kespa training and broodwar experience had a lot to do with that.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 15:55 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:46 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 15:40 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 15:29 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 15:26 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 15:02 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 14:59 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 12 2013 13:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?" Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!" Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.' Looking through the list of GSL winners for people who never played broodwar professionally for a kespa team now: All the people who won gold more than once played for kespa at one point. Half the people who won once did. Both people who won silver more than once played for kespa, more than half of the people who won once did. Dunnu seems like they did more than pretty well considering the huge influx of competition from completely different games like wc3 of CoH. But yeah turned out that _among_ the people with the RTS talent and drive to succeed at professional bw there wasn't any particular correlation between bw success and sc2 success. But there is most certainly a very strong correlation between sc2 success and "having played bw for kespa at one point". Much more so than for other games or other organisations. that's the korean factor coming into play, not the BW factor lol i.e. if you're good at s2, you're probably a korean. if you're a korean who games, you've probably played BW at some point. not particularly strong causation i disagree. why is it still in contention that the kespa training regimen and the mechanical skill required to play broodwar were primarily responsible for kespa doing as well as they did in sc2? when kespa first switched, kespa players were taking games and even winning vs people who have played the game for far longer based purely on their mechanics and familiarity with basic rts strategies in spite of not having sc2-specific experience and knowledge. about the training, even alive mentioned specifically in an interview that 'they' were at a disadvantage because kespa players train much more than them. sure, it didn't lead to results as drastic as this article predicted, but to completely dismiss these points is just absurd. i don't disagree with what you said, i think that's the primary reason why they are doing better now, but that was not my argument at all to the other guy lolol i reread your post. i believe you were actually arguing that indirectly. you said 'korean factor' and not 'broodwar factor'. you don't acknowledge that these players' experience in playing bw competitively, with kespa training regimen no less, played a major role in developing their skills and fundamentals for sc2, hence leading to their outstanding results. is this correct? i disagree that kespa training was a factor for sc2 results before kespa actually switched. the scene was very lax then, koreans got away with very little practice. i'm honestly not sure what your exact stand is. i'd just say that mvp said himself that he became #1 ladder player in just a month after he switched to sc2. i don't remember the exact details but i would think he won his 1st championship not long after. i'd say kespa training and broodwar experience had a lot to do with that.
and that's where we have to agree to disagree then
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The major flaw the article had always made was the assumption that MC, FD, Losira etc had no talent or work ethic in BW because they didn't have results. The truth of the matter was that all these guys who later became great in SC2, MMA, DRG who were merely lowly BW players without results were lowly BW players without results for like 6 months, they were barely drafted for a half a year. SC2 came out and they were like 'what the hell, new game, let's try it.'. Particularly MC and FD were known to be prodigies at BW with a lot of potential and talent, which obviously takes a while to mature but they just started to play it professionally. Which is also why MC was continued to be sent out in proleague. They didn't expect him to win, but they wanted him to get experience in the booth because they knew he'd one day become something big.
I mean, when BoxeR founded Slayers, he set his eye on two players immediately, he wanted DRG and MMA in his team who at the time were teamless. He got MMA, DRG found a better offer in MVP. And what did MMA and DRG later become? Two of the absolute best players. And we all know BoxeR knows what's up in recognising talent that can be nurtured.
This is the quintessential flaw the article makes 'They didn't have good results, so they must've been talentless or not practice hard', rather it was 'They didn't have good results, because they played BW professionally for like 6 months, of course they aren't going to have any good results yet.'
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Canada16217 Posts
On July 12 2013 15:41 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:33 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 15:26 Shellshock1122 wrote:On July 12 2013 15:26 Dodgin wrote:
It's probably about how good Polt would be at LoL The real 2nd elephant in the room article. MOBAs We're gonna need more animals with SC2, HoN, Dota2 players going into LoL for the moneys Or at least have them not move back/retire after failing to start a career in LoL (Looking at you Coca and Inori)
it was coca and Puzzle.
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On July 12 2013 15:53 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:41 Subversive wrote:
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TL;DR
The article was written in 05/11, the scene was young then and times have changed. There's a rise of younger talent for both eSF and KeSPA. We'll never know if Intrigue was right or wrong because the switch never happened and everyone's play is better today. There's no need for partisans of either group to keep coming back to this article with malicious glee every time one of their players dominates. I disagree. The article had not grounds when it was published and has proven wrong over time. I like this to pop up every few weeks though 
The article hasn't been proven wrong over time because the supposition never occurred. If you don't believe that the scene is more developed and the play is higher today than it was then, then you're just flat out wrong.
Even people who feel the article was way over the top concede that the KeSPA pros would have made a big splash in mid 2011.
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On July 12 2013 16:17 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:53 grs wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Subversive wrote:
...
TL;DR
The article was written in 05/11, the scene was young then and times have changed. There's a rise of younger talent for both eSF and KeSPA. We'll never know if Intrigue was right or wrong because the switch never happened and everyone's play is better today. There's no need for partisans of either group to keep coming back to this article with malicious glee every time one of their players dominates. I disagree. The article had not grounds when it was published and has proven wrong over time. I like this to pop up every few weeks though The article hasn't been proven wrong over time because the supposition never occurred. If you don't believe that the scene is more developed and the play is higher today than it was then, then you're just flat out wrong. Even people who feel the article was way over the top concede that the KeSPA pros would have made a big splash in mid 2011. They made a big splash now. The point is that the article asserts that even the most terribad KeSPA pro would dominate. That didn't happen now, and that wouldn't happen in 2010 either.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 16:26 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 16:17 Subversive wrote:On July 12 2013 15:53 grs wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Subversive wrote:
...
TL;DR
The article was written in 05/11, the scene was young then and times have changed. There's a rise of younger talent for both eSF and KeSPA. We'll never know if Intrigue was right or wrong because the switch never happened and everyone's play is better today. There's no need for partisans of either group to keep coming back to this article with malicious glee every time one of their players dominates. I disagree. The article had not grounds when it was published and has proven wrong over time. I like this to pop up every few weeks though The article hasn't been proven wrong over time because the supposition never occurred. If you don't believe that the scene is more developed and the play is higher today than it was then, then you're just flat out wrong. Even people who feel the article was way over the top concede that the KeSPA pros would have made a big splash in mid 2011. They made a big splash now. The point is that the article asserts that even the most terribad KeSPA pro would dominate. That didn't happen now, and that wouldn't happen in 2010 either.
and had they switched in 2010 the nonkespas would have stepped it up as well to not become irrelevant, as they did after kespa switched.
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I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point.
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The article was released way too soon anyway. sc2 hadn't even been out for a year back in May 2011.
That's what I hated the most about it. The scene wasn't even given much of a chance to develop before we started harping on the awesomeness that is Flash and Jaedong. As if those two weren't already legends, beloved by many, and hyped to astronomical levels in BW. No! We need to port that over to sc2 before they even arrive and prove themselves!
Never mind those that were laying the way in the scene currently. In fact, during that period there were 3 players that were just emerging that are currently in our ro16 for OSL (Supernova, Losira, and Bomber).
On July 12 2013 16:56 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point.
Don't forget a lot of competition outside of Kespa has the freedom to go to other WCS regions. Someone has to fill those spots.
As for the notable few who CRUSH almost any other player. I believe only Bogus belongs in that category, and possibly Soulkey given that they've yet to get lower than ro8 since hitting code S and the quality of their gameplay. Flash, RorO etc I think are totally beatable by several non-Kespa and lesser Kespa players alike.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Might as well argue who would win:
A dragon with goldfish eyeballs armed with a claymore or a giant wallaby-ankylosaurus hybrid whose boney plates are made of dinner plates
Arguing hypothetical situations is fun
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On July 12 2013 16:17 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:53 grs wrote:On July 12 2013 15:41 Subversive wrote:
...
TL;DR
The article was written in 05/11, the scene was young then and times have changed. There's a rise of younger talent for both eSF and KeSPA. We'll never know if Intrigue was right or wrong because the switch never happened and everyone's play is better today. There's no need for partisans of either group to keep coming back to this article with malicious glee every time one of their players dominates. I disagree. The article had not grounds when it was published and has proven wrong over time. I like this to pop up every few weeks though The article hasn't been proven wrong over time because the supposition never occurred. If you don't believe that the scene is more developed and the play is higher today than it was then, then you're just flat out wrong. Even people who feel the article was way over the top concede that the KeSPA pros would have made a big splash in mid 2011.
The point was that "competition at sc2 is a farce" because all the Kespa pros are so much better and will dominate everyone once they switch. This was and still is wrong.
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United States97274 Posts
On July 12 2013 17:09 lichter wrote:
Might as well argue who would win:
A dragon with goldfish eyeballs armed with a claymore or a giant wallaby-ankylosaurus hybrid whose boney plates are made of dinner plates
Arguing hypothetical situations is fun
the dragon
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On July 12 2013 16:56 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point.
yeah well it's futile to explain the merits of the article and the things it actually got correctly to people who would pounce at any opportunity to discredit it. we know what's up anyway
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 17:37 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 16:56 Subversive wrote:I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point. yeah well it's futile to explain the merits of the article and the things it actually got correctly to people who would pounce at any opportunity to discredit it. we know what's up anyway
and it's that superior attitude that makes this insufferable lol
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On July 12 2013 17:39 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 17:37 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 16:56 Subversive wrote:I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point. yeah well it's futile to explain the merits of the article and the things it actually got correctly to people who would pounce at any opportunity to discredit it. we know what's up anyway and it's that superior attitude that makes this insufferable lol
what superior attitude are you talking about? i am simply stating what i think and observe.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 17:41 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 17:39 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 17:37 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 16:56 Subversive wrote:I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point. yeah well it's futile to explain the merits of the article and the things it actually got correctly to people who would pounce at any opportunity to discredit it. we know what's up anyway and it's that superior attitude that makes this insufferable lol what superior attitude are you talking about? i am simply stating what i think and observe.
"we know what's up anyway"
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 12 2013 17:19 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 17:09 lichter wrote:
Might as well argue who would win:
A dragon with goldfish eyeballs armed with a claymore or a giant wallaby-ankylosaurus hybrid whose boney plates are made of dinner plates
Arguing hypothetical situations is fun the dragon
He has goldfish eyeballs though
Those things are a major liability
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I think the biggest mistake kespa made was not switching sooner and drawing in the next generation of talent. I guess you could say they need to work on their scouting.
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On July 12 2013 17:42 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 17:41 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 17:39 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 17:37 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 16:56 Subversive wrote:I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point. yeah well it's futile to explain the merits of the article and the things it actually got correctly to people who would pounce at any opportunity to discredit it. we know what's up anyway and it's that superior attitude that makes this insufferable lol what superior attitude are you talking about? i am simply stating what i think and observe. "we know what's up anyway"
well, we do lol. how do you want me to word it so you won't get butthurt by it? not that i'd do it just to please your sensibilites.
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Well apart from the simple and slightly inflammatory idea that the competition was a farce (Which can be justified in some ways given the timeperiod this article was written...), there's also the archaic and conservative concept of classes, of which only a select few can ever hope to break out of. To me there's tremendous justice in seeing player shine that aren't the ones being hailed here - the article is more silly for it's elitism and determinism than anything else. More than two years have passed, and the world of SC2 would be hardpressed to be more different than what this article predicts and predicates.
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EPT
