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On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
Perhaps motivation flagged after they won too many tournaments, or maybe the prize money was too distracting. Perhaps they were simply out-skilled by those who had built their games upon the templates these three established.
perhaps Flash's motivation flagged!
so if he plays seriously he will win with ease
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United States4883 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:56 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 09:38 SC2John wrote:On July 12 2013 09:07 googolplex wrote:
has this thread not yet been fully debunked? For real. Can't we just accept that Bomber, Maru, and Supernova are all doing incredibly well right now in OSL? In addition, IM_First is looking AMAZING right now, playing probably the best protoss out there right now. To say that Kespa will dominate the other Koreans is silly when we have so many non-Kepsa players that are still doing incredibly. Even the top foreigner players are not THAT far behind the kespa players (particularly Naniwa and Stephano). There's tons of room for growth for everyone, but the gap that kespa players had in BW is gone, and the game is far too competitive now for that gap to begin again. I'm pretty sure weŕe seeing KeSPA dominating left and right. The eSF players are soon to be completely out of business. It's sheer and utter domination in the OSL right now.
Did you SEE First vs. Fantasy? There are a couple of heroes from Kespa, but overall the numbers are about equal as far as the top players are concerned.
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On July 12 2013 11:39 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 10:18 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 10:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 12 2013 10:08 theMagus wrote:
are we really gonna see esf fangirls gloating in this thread everytime an esf player defeats a kespa player? yer funny lol. kespa fangirls do it too when their players win. hahaha. kespa fans don't even have a thread like this  yeah, they have this + at least 50 more LRs lol
They also have about 10 years of previous content.
I'd say that the posting on Teamliquid for SC2 content, in comparison to Broodwar days, has been a farce.
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Sometimes I like to read over the first comments for a laugh.
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On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?"
Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!"
Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.'
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On July 12 2013 10:30 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 10:18 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 10:16 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 12 2013 10:08 theMagus wrote:
are we really gonna see esf fangirls gloating in this thread everytime an esf player defeats a kespa player? yer funny lol. kespa fangirls do it too when their players win. hahaha. kespa fans don't even have a thread like this HUH? This IS that thread...
i meant a thread praising esf merits and kespa fans gloating in it. i thought that was obvious 
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That's because there aren't any 'eSF defenders', don't you get it? No one is claiming that eSF >>> KeSPA. What the article is claiming is that the worst of the worst KeSPA pros would go stomp the finest already established SC2 pros. no one is claiming the inverse. Saying that a premise isn't true is something else entirely from claiming the reverse of the premise to be true. There isn't anyone in this thread who is claiming that eSF players or original SC2 players are dominating KeSPA or are going to or whatever. There are just people who claim that the amount of domination the article hyped didn't turn out to be true, and won't turn out to be true, not eve by a long shot.
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On July 12 2013 14:07 SiskosGoatee wrote:
That's because there aren't any 'eSF defenders', don't you get it? No one is claiming that eSF >>> KeSPA. What the article is claiming is that the worst of the worst KeSPA pros would go stomp the finest already established SC2 pros. no one is claiming the inverse. Saying that a premise isn't true is something else entirely from claiming the reverse of the premise to be true. There isn't anyone in this thread who is claiming that eSF players or original SC2 players are dominating KeSPA or are going to or whatever. There are just people who claim that the amount of domination the article hyped didn't turn out to be true, and won't turn out to be true, not eve by a long shot.
rofl. i was just teasing the other guy man. i stated that there is no such thread, and it is a fact. i never said anything about people claiming esf > kespa. you assumed way too much and got too serious about my post.
edit: for someone claiming there are no esf defenders, you sure are passionate and serious about this whole subject lol. other people too.
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I am still waiting on part two of this ... no really
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On July 12 2013 14:27 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 14:07 SiskosGoatee wrote:
That's because there aren't any 'eSF defenders', don't you get it? No one is claiming that eSF >>> KeSPA. What the article is claiming is that the worst of the worst KeSPA pros would go stomp the finest already established SC2 pros. no one is claiming the inverse. Saying that a premise isn't true is something else entirely from claiming the reverse of the premise to be true. There isn't anyone in this thread who is claiming that eSF players or original SC2 players are dominating KeSPA or are going to or whatever. There are just people who claim that the amount of domination the article hyped didn't turn out to be true, and won't turn out to be true, not eve by a long shot. rofl. i was just teasing the other guy man. i stated that there is no such thread, and it is a fact. i never said anything about people claiming esf > kespa. you assumed way too much and got too serious about my post. edit: for someone claiming there are no esf defenders, you sure are passionate and serious about this whole subject lol. other people too.
We're only circumstantially "ESF defenders". I just dislike it in general when people make utterly false claims, usually motivated by blind fanboyism. I was annoyed by Stephano fanboys for the same reason.
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On July 12 2013 14:45 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 14:27 theMagus wrote:On July 12 2013 14:07 SiskosGoatee wrote:
That's because there aren't any 'eSF defenders', don't you get it? No one is claiming that eSF >>> KeSPA. What the article is claiming is that the worst of the worst KeSPA pros would go stomp the finest already established SC2 pros. no one is claiming the inverse. Saying that a premise isn't true is something else entirely from claiming the reverse of the premise to be true. There isn't anyone in this thread who is claiming that eSF players or original SC2 players are dominating KeSPA or are going to or whatever. There are just people who claim that the amount of domination the article hyped didn't turn out to be true, and won't turn out to be true, not eve by a long shot. rofl. i was just teasing the other guy man. i stated that there is no such thread, and it is a fact. i never said anything about people claiming esf > kespa. you assumed way too much and got too serious about my post. edit: for someone claiming there are no esf defenders, you sure are passionate and serious about this whole subject lol. other people too. We're only circumstantially ESF defenders. I just dislike it in general when people make utterly false claims, usually motivated by blind fanboyism. I was annoyed by Stephano fanboys for the same reason.
i thought stephano fanboys were funny. for me it's kinda a waste of time taking things like that seriously in the first place. i guess we're different.
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On July 12 2013 13:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?" Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!" Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.'
Looking through the list of GSL winners for people who never played broodwar professionally for a kespa team now: All the people who won gold more than once played for kespa at one point. Half the people who won once did. Both people who won silver more than once played for kespa, more than half of the people who won once did. Dunnu seems like they did more than pretty well considering the huge influx of competition from completely different games like wc3 of CoH.
But yeah turned out that _among_ the people with the RTS talent and drive to succeed at professional bw there wasn't any particular correlation between bw success and sc2 success. But there is most certainly a very strong correlation between sc2 success and "having played bw for kespa at one point". Much more so than for other games or other organisations.
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On July 12 2013 14:35 Lysanias wrote:I am still waiting on part two of this ... no really
Yeah really. Given how much controversy this article stirred up and how inaccurate it was, you'd think there would've been a followup now that Kespa is here.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 14:59 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 13:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?" Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!" Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.' Looking through the list of GSL winners for people who never played broodwar professionally for a kespa team now: All the people who won gold more than once played for kespa at one point. Half the people who won once did. Both people who won silver more than once played for kespa, more than half of the people who won once did. Dunnu seems like they did more than pretty well considering the huge influx of competition from completely different games like wc3 of CoH. But yeah turned out that _among_ the people with the RTS talent and drive to succeed at professional bw there wasn't any particular correlation between bw success and sc2 success. But there is most certainly a very strong correlation between sc2 success and "having played bw for kespa at one point". Much more so than for other games or other organisations.
that's the korean factor coming into play, not the BW factor lol
i.e. if you're good at s2, you're probably a korean. if you're a korean who games, you've probably played BW at some point. not particularly strong causation
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 15:01 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 14:35 Lysanias wrote:I am still waiting on part two of this ... no really Yeah really. Given how much controversy this article stirred up and how inaccurate it was, you'd think there would've been a followup now that Kespa is here.
i believe some staff member said there was one planned but it never eventuated?
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On July 12 2013 15:02 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 14:59 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 12 2013 13:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?" Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!" Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.' Looking through the list of GSL winners for people who never played broodwar professionally for a kespa team now: All the people who won gold more than once played for kespa at one point. Half the people who won once did. Both people who won silver more than once played for kespa, more than half of the people who won once did. Dunnu seems like they did more than pretty well considering the huge influx of competition from completely different games like wc3 of CoH. But yeah turned out that _among_ the people with the RTS talent and drive to succeed at professional bw there wasn't any particular correlation between bw success and sc2 success. But there is most certainly a very strong correlation between sc2 success and "having played bw for kespa at one point". Much more so than for other games or other organisations. that's the korean factor coming into play, not the BW factor lol i.e. if you're good at s2, you're probably a korean. if you're a korean who games, you've probably played BW at some point. not particularly strong causation
Well I didn't say played brood war at some point, I said played brood war professionally for kespa at one point. The number of Koreans who played for kespa is really quite tiny compared to the number of Koreans who play(ed) sc2 or bw.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 12 2013 15:02 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:01 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On July 12 2013 14:35 Lysanias wrote:I am still waiting on part two of this ... no really Yeah really. Given how much controversy this article stirred up and how inaccurate it was, you'd think there would've been a followup now that Kespa is here. i believe some staff member said there was one planned but it never eventuated?
Maybe it's Fionn's Fabled Article?
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On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
just wanted to drop by and say that i am totally unfazed! and honestly really perplexed that people still have the shamelessness to jump in here for 'revenge'. how many times have you guys done that and gotten proven wrong all over again? never learn
favorite nitpicky quote in last few pages: "Intrigue is not, at least entirely correct"
notes:
- forgg was approximately MVP-level in bw. quite good, but there are better. i expect a similar level of performance, probably a bit better.
- losing to leenock isn't bad at all. i wish sc2 players had some metric to understand what a monumental feat reaching iccup A during korean hours at age 13 is. i could try to explain but i don't really feel like it. takeaway point: the kid is good. i mean yeah he was past gsl finalist.
- you do not understand starcraft at all if you think "dominating" means never dropping games. MC obviously stepped up his game today by taking out leenock too despite my low opinion of him. good for him! it would be too boring if he faded to mediocrity as quickly as i expected.
ultimately, it doesn't even matter at all what happens from this point on - the skill level of the scene has already increased so massively since this article that i already feel completely vindicated. if you don't think the games 1 year ago were, well... (you know the f word) then i don't know what to say to you! people don't even mention foreigners anymore in this article haha, that's how much things have changed! have a great day citizens
I think this is my favorite response from the author. Its especially fantastic given some of his earlier criticisms of MC, and if leenock couldn't even make it into a kespa team...
In any event this article is still a good read, if only for the entirely unintended reasons.
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On July 12 2013 14:59 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 13:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?" Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!" Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.' Looking through the list of GSL winners for people who never played broodwar professionally for a kespa team now: All the people who won gold more than once played for kespa at one point. Half the people who won once did. Both people who won silver more than once played for kespa, more than half of the people who won once did. Dunnu seems like they did more than pretty well considering the huge influx of competition from completely different games like wc3 of CoH. But yeah turned out that _among_ the people with the RTS talent and drive to succeed at professional bw there wasn't any particular correlation between bw success and sc2 success. But there is most certainly a very strong correlation between sc2 success and "having played bw for kespa at one point". Much more so than for other games or other organisations. And that's not the point of the article. The point of the article is that the SC2 pros before the time of the switch just switched to SC2 because they were bad at BW and when the real, actually good BW players would switch they would concordantly completely annihilate.
Also, note that no tournament winner in BW has yet won a major tournament in SC2. The people who won tournaments in SC2 in fact never won any in BW.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 15:09 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:02 opterown wrote:On July 12 2013 14:59 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 12 2013 13:35 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 12 2013 11:33 FallDownMarigold wrote:On July 12 2013 11:17 stratmatt wrote:
Yeah, this article is pretty much 100% wrong. Abstract out all the petty details and a general message emerges that seems true to some extent... Kespa pros are very strong in SC2, and continue to become the best players in SC2 the more time spent playing the game. Kespa pros are the hardest and smartest practicing players and unsurprisingly are starting to fill up the ranks of the best of the best in SC2. The stuff about non-Kespa pros being "a farce" and all that stuff intended to instigate and enrage may not be perfectly true but I think there's some rightness in it So the general message of the article according to you is: "Yo, if KeSPa pros switch to StarCraft II, they will be even with the original pros, just like the WC II pros, and the people who never played BW professionally like Leenock?" Like "Gee, I got this big elephant in the room for you, this big uncomfortable truth that no one wants to talk about, when KeSPA pros switch, they will do reasonably okay!" Maybe you should actually read it, no one who is criticising the article asserts that it is wrong to belief that the KeSPA pros will do reasonably well. Do you honestly think anyone could ever think that? No, the article is about how the lowest of the lowest of the KeSPA pros could come to SC2 at any time and dominate on the level of Mvp, that's the idea people critical of the article are claiming. Do you honestly think there is anyone out there who believes 'Gee, if these people switch to SC2. THey wouldn't do okay at all. Maybe one of them would reach code A but that's it.' Looking through the list of GSL winners for people who never played broodwar professionally for a kespa team now: All the people who won gold more than once played for kespa at one point. Half the people who won once did. Both people who won silver more than once played for kespa, more than half of the people who won once did. Dunnu seems like they did more than pretty well considering the huge influx of competition from completely different games like wc3 of CoH. But yeah turned out that _among_ the people with the RTS talent and drive to succeed at professional bw there wasn't any particular correlation between bw success and sc2 success. But there is most certainly a very strong correlation between sc2 success and "having played bw for kespa at one point". Much more so than for other games or other organisations. that's the korean factor coming into play, not the BW factor lol i.e. if you're good at s2, you're probably a korean. if you're a korean who games, you've probably played BW at some point. not particularly strong causation Well I didn't say played brood war at some point, I said played brood war professionally for kespa at one point. The number of Koreans who played for kespa is really quite tiny compared to the number of Koreans who play(ed) sc2 or bw.
ok fine, my point still stands, but let me clarify
if you're good at sc2, you're probably a korean who works hard at gaming. if you're a korean who works hard at gaming, you've probably played or considered playing BW professionally - and the only way to do that was with kespa (b teamer or practice partner etc)
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EPT
