EPTOn July 04 2013 23:44 SiskosGoatee wrote:
What on earth has suddenly hapepned here?
What on earth has suddenly hapepned here?
We started talking about calciopoli and Italian piss balloons, apparently
The Elephant in the Room - Page 307
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
We started talking about calciopoli and Italian piss balloons, apparently | ||
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AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On July 04 2013 23:52 lichter wrote: Shouldn't we instead talk about how Bomber 2-0'd Flash, I hear that's what this topic is about?We started talking about calciopoli and Italian piss balloons, apparently | ||
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theking1
Romania658 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:03 SiskosGoatee wrote: Shouldn't we instead talk about how Bomber 2-0'd Flash, I hear that's what this topic is about? those were good games.never seen such a good counter to hellbat drops like bomber did.definetly something we will see in the osl more often. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
the heart of this article never came close to the reality we live in today. | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:12 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I can't believe this thread hasn't been locked yet xD the heart of this article never came close to the reality we live in today. KesPA's always had a high turnover rate of who the top players are. Flash and Jaedong destroying everyone in 2013 was never any more likely than sAviOr destroying everyone in 2009, no matter what game they played. That's the heart of what intrigue missed, every other criticism is irrelevant bullshit. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:33 jalstar wrote: lol, never heard this excuse before.KesPA's always had a high turnover rate of who the top players are. Flash and Jaedong destroying everyone in 2013 was never any more likely than sAviOr destroying everyone in 2009, no matter what game they played. That's the heart of what intrigue missed, every other criticism is irrelevant bullshit. | ||
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:12 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I can't believe this thread hasn't been locked yet xD the heart of this article never came close to the reality we live in today. Isn't the article pretty much about Kespa pros dominating the scene? I'd say that's rather accurate for what we're seeing today, barring a few exceptions. That being said this thread needs to die, and i'm not helping XD | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:47 Yorbon wrote: lol, never heard this excuse before. no, turnover and people peaking is amazingly accurate throughout the course of bw history (and for korean scene of sc2; hero and polt though make good splashes elsewhere, hero is a bit of a counterexample. The general trend is true) though supernova throws another person in the mix this season, but maru is another for the turnover generation | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:52 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Isn't the article pretty much about Kespa pros dominating the scene? I'd say that's rather accurate for what we're seeing today, barring a few exceptions. That being said this thread needs to die, and i'm not helping XD Two key parts of the article in spoilers. I highlighted and underlined specific parts of interest. Originally back when this first came out I thought it was a well-written and informative piece...up until you reach this section. Then it just feels like full fanboy gushing. These two pieces in particular are probably the biggest source of controversy in the article as well. + Show Spoiler + I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. "But intrigue, BW stats are not everything! This information is all irrelevant!" I'll save my arguing energy for responding to your comments. A friend of mine wanted to take this part: + Show Spoiler + Hot_Bid writes: I know what you're going to say. "It's a different game." I agree with you, somewhat. Look at the WarCraft 3 guys that are doing so well in the international scene, or at the Brood War careers of the guys winning the GSLs. There hasn't been a huge correlation between Brood War ability and SC2 ability among top tier SC2 pros right now. You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset. They could be worse, or better, or exactly the same. Now imagine there are two, maybe three, that are just flat out better than Mvp at speed, precision, multitasking, and raw ability. Not just "a little better" but way better. But that's not what separates them from him. Flash and Jaedong, when motivated, have a mindset and work ethic that is unmatched by any other RTS professional. Their ability to focus and practice is not just "way better" than what Mvp is capable of, but orders of magnitudes better. Think the difference between Kobe and "average starter" on an NBA team. Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On July 12 2013 07:52 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Isn't the article pretty much about Kespa pros dominating the scene? I'd say that's rather accurate for what we're seeing today, barring a few exceptions. That being said this thread needs to die, and i'm not helping XD How exactly are Kespa pros dominating the scene? You either don't know what "dominating" means, or you're looking at Innovation and Soulkey, and are somehow equating their success to the rest of Kespa. The way I see it, there are a few Kespa players at the top of the world right now, but apart from that, everyone else is fairly even. Kespa B-teamers and even a couple Proleague regulars are for some reason consistently failing in WCS America qualifiers right now. Some Proleague regulars went to MLG and were taken out by non-ESF Koreans and a foreigner. Three ESF players are currently 2-0 at the top of their groups right now in the OSL. And in Code A, things look pretty even, with Kespa and ESF trading blows. In Proleague, EG-TL indeed finished last, but they barely did worse than Team 8 and CJ, and if Kespa was truly dominating, I would expect EG-TL to be by and far the last place team. Frankly, I'm tired of Kespa fans trying to argue that Kespa is dominating the scene, because I see no evidence that that's the case. A very small group of Kespa players being at the top of the world right now (Innovation, Soulkey, Rain) does not equate to Kespa in general dominating the scene. | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On July 12 2013 08:18 HolyArrow wrote: How exactly are Kespa pros dominating the scene? You either don't know what "dominating" means, or you're looking at Innovation and Soulkey, and are somehow equating their success to the rest of Kespa. The way I see it, there are a few Kespa players at the top of the world right now, but apart from that, everyone else is fairly even. Kespa B-teamers and even a couple Proleague regulars are for some reason consistently failing in WCS America qualifiers right now. Some Proleague regulars went to MLG and were taken out by non-ESF Koreans and a foreigner. Three ESF players are currently 2-0 at the top of their groups right now in the OSL. And in Code A, things look pretty even, with Kespa and ESF trading blows. In Proleague, EG-TL indeed finished last, but they barely did worse than Team 8 and CJ, and if Kespa was truly dominating, I would expect EG-TL to be by and far the last place team. Frankly, I'm tired of Kespa fans trying to argue that Kespa is dominating the scene, because I see no evidence that that's the case. A very small group of Kespa players being at the top of the world right now (Innovation, Soulkey, Rain) does not equate to Kespa in general dominating the scene. Moreover, EG-TL is not a member of the eSF. Let's put LG-IM or Startale in ProLeague, I think that would be much more even. | ||
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googolplex
United States280 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:07 googolplex wrote: has this thread not yet been fully debunked? lol. Remember when this thread was such big news on TL? And everyone thought that the article was making a really obvious point? What a dramatic turnaround. I feel bad for that elephant | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:07 googolplex wrote: Nahh, can't you see how KeSPA and eSF being pretty much completely even is KeSPA completely and utterly dominating?has this thread not yet been fully debunked? | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:07 googolplex wrote: has this thread not yet been fully debunked? For real. Can't we just accept that Bomber, Maru, and Supernova are all doing incredibly well right now in OSL? In addition, IM_First is looking AMAZING right now, playing probably the best protoss out there right now. To say that Kespa will dominate the other Koreans is silly when we have so many non-Kepsa players that are still doing incredibly. Even the top foreigner players are not THAT far behind the kespa players (particularly Naniwa and Stephano). There's tons of room for growth for everyone, but the gap that kespa players had in BW is gone, and the game is far too competitive now for that gap to begin again. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On July 12 2013 09:38 SC2John wrote: I'm pretty sure weŕe seeing KeSPA dominating left and right. The eSF players are soon to be completely out of business. It's sheer and utter domination in the OSL right now.For real. Can't we just accept that Bomber, Maru, and Supernova are all doing incredibly well right now in OSL? In addition, IM_First is looking AMAZING right now, playing probably the best protoss out there right now. To say that Kespa will dominate the other Koreans is silly when we have so many non-Kepsa players that are still doing incredibly. Even the top foreigner players are not THAT far behind the kespa players (particularly Naniwa and Stephano). There's tons of room for growth for everyone, but the gap that kespa players had in BW is gone, and the game is far too competitive now for that gap to begin again. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On July 12 2013 08:01 N.geNuity wrote: that's a good point. no, turnover and people peaking is amazingly accurate throughout the course of bw history (and for korean scene of sc2; hero and polt though make good splashes elsewhere, hero is a bit of a counterexample. The general trend is true) though supernova throws another person in the mix this season, but maru is another for the turnover generation I think i misread his post a bit, to the point that i thought he was defending the article. In that case, the only sentence i disagree with is the one with 'irrelevant bullshit' as one of my main points against the article initially was that the point wasn't verifiable. Except of course when the switch would happen, in which case the article would just become irrelevant. | ||
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