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On July 12 2013 22:32 Irre wrote:
the writers of this article had good basis at the time for their argument...however they grossly underestimated Terrible Terrible Damage and a terrible stagnant metagame, and overestimated how far mechanical skill can carry you in Sc2.
Innovation's play is like pure mechanical play, speed and macro your opponents into the ground.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers
How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense.
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On July 12 2013 22:32 Irre wrote:
the writers of this article had good basis at the time for their argument...however they grossly underestimated Terrible Terrible Damage and a terrible stagnant metagame, and overestimated how far mechanical skill can carry you in Sc2. lol @ this excuse.
"Yo guys, the reason JD isn't happening is because the skill ceiling of the game is too low." said while Life just won 3 tournaments in a row he attended.
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On July 12 2013 22:37 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 22:32 Irre wrote:
the writers of this article had good basis at the time for their argument...however they grossly underestimated Terrible Terrible Damage and a terrible stagnant metagame, and overestimated how far mechanical skill can carry you in Sc2. Innovation's play is like pure mechanical play, speed and macro your opponents into the ground.
I'm pretty sure that he meant to say Starcraft 2 is too mechanically focused and doesn't feature enough damage! Don't be so prosaic.
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On July 12 2013 22:17 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time. TL+ has all the secrets. Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad
Rule 1 of TL+ is you never talk about what happens in TL+ damn it! How could you forget?
On July 12 2013 22:41 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense.
Pretty sure his point wasn't "there's an evil plan" but was instead "the consequences of posting such an inflammatory article weren't thought through properly at the time".
Which to an extent I agree with. The article was flat out proven to be wrong in its assertions, and frankly it was pretty obvious that it would be given how extreme they were, but despite the elephant concept being slain right from the outset its still hanging around like some kind of undead ghoul. Its tiring to see the constant bitching between "KeSPA fans" and "ESF fans" when instead we could have all just been enjoying watching Starcraft 2.
I still feel this article single-handedly ruined what could have been an exciting time for SC2 (KeSPA coming over) by making it so confrontational.
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This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players.
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On July 13 2013 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 22:17 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time. TL+ has all the secrets. Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad Rule 1 of TL+ is you never talk about what happens in TL+ damn it! How could you forget? Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 22:41 imallinson wrote:On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense. Pretty sure his point wasn't "there's an evil plan" but was instead "the consequences of posting such an inflammatory article weren't thought through properly at the time". Which to an extent I agree with. The article was flat out proven to be wrong in its assertions, and frankly it was pretty obvious that it would be given how extreme they were, but despite the elephant concept being slain right from the outset its still hanging around like some kind of undead ghoul. Its tiring to see the constant bitching between "KeSPA fans" and "ESF fans" when instead we could have all just been enjoying watching Starcraft 2. I still feel this article single-handedly ruined what could have been an exciting time for SC2 (KeSPA coming over) by making it so confrontational.
Thank you, and yes that's exactly what I meant.
I thought my point was clear, but upon re-reading perhaps it could be misinterpreted.
Let me clarify:
I think that the mods own opinions of the article (I think they thought it was correct) and perhaps their general feelings towards SC2 at the time (simplified game, not as good as BW) blinded them to taking appropriate action on it for the good of the community.
Ask yourself these questions:
Is there a problem in the community with ESF vs Kespa (flaming/complaining etc.)?
Did this article contribute to or even start that problem?
Given what you know now, would you have allowed the original article to be posted?
My answers are: Yes, Yes, No.
Of course it's unfair to judge given 100% hindsight, but it's long been clear that this thread is nothing but a dividing force in the community. Which is why I called for it's long overdue locking.
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On July 13 2013 01:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On July 12 2013 22:17 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time. TL+ has all the secrets. Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad Rule 1 of TL+ is you never talk about what happens in TL+ damn it! How could you forget? On July 12 2013 22:41 imallinson wrote:On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense. Pretty sure his point wasn't "there's an evil plan" but was instead "the consequences of posting such an inflammatory article weren't thought through properly at the time". Which to an extent I agree with. The article was flat out proven to be wrong in its assertions, and frankly it was pretty obvious that it would be given how extreme they were, but despite the elephant concept being slain right from the outset its still hanging around like some kind of undead ghoul. Its tiring to see the constant bitching between "KeSPA fans" and "ESF fans" when instead we could have all just been enjoying watching Starcraft 2. I still feel this article single-handedly ruined what could have been an exciting time for SC2 (KeSPA coming over) by making it so confrontational. Thank you, and yes that's exactly what I meant. I thought my point was clear, but upon re-reading perhaps it could be misinterpreted. Let me clarify: I think that the mods own opinions of the article (I think they thought it was correct) and perhaps their general feelings towards SC2 at the time (simplified game, not as good as BW) blinded them to taking appropriate action on it for the good of the community. Ask yourself these questions: Is there a problem in the community with ESF vs Kespa (flaming/complaining etc.)? Did this article contribute to or even start that problem? Given what you know now, would you have allowed the original article to be posted? My answers are: Yes, Yes, No. Of course it's unfair to judge given 100% hindsight, but it's long been clear that this thread is nothing but a dividing force in the community. Which is why I called for it's long overdue locking. Ah yes, people are not allowed to disagree with each other and any article which prompts people to think and disagree with each other and engage in debate is bad?
Let's all agree on everything, no tolerance for dissent.
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So what if there is confrontational views on Kespa vs Esf. As long as it is conducted in a civil manner, it is even more to benefit, cause otherwise it would be dead boring. People always try to find some confrontations to discuss and it is a natural process. Take any sport. Take any political issue. There are different views. It would have been that way even without this article.
This article has won for several reasons. After 3 years, even if you dislike it, you are still discussing it. Also no need to take it too seriously. In certain ways it was right, you don't need to literally accept everything. So many people thinking there is an objective truth. Funny.
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On July 13 2013 01:12 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 13 2013 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On July 12 2013 22:17 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time. TL+ has all the secrets. Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad Rule 1 of TL+ is you never talk about what happens in TL+ damn it! How could you forget? On July 12 2013 22:41 imallinson wrote:On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense. Pretty sure his point wasn't "there's an evil plan" but was instead "the consequences of posting such an inflammatory article weren't thought through properly at the time". Which to an extent I agree with. The article was flat out proven to be wrong in its assertions, and frankly it was pretty obvious that it would be given how extreme they were, but despite the elephant concept being slain right from the outset its still hanging around like some kind of undead ghoul. Its tiring to see the constant bitching between "KeSPA fans" and "ESF fans" when instead we could have all just been enjoying watching Starcraft 2. I still feel this article single-handedly ruined what could have been an exciting time for SC2 (KeSPA coming over) by making it so confrontational. Thank you, and yes that's exactly what I meant. I thought my point was clear, but upon re-reading perhaps it could be misinterpreted. Let me clarify: I think that the mods own opinions of the article (I think they thought it was correct) and perhaps their general feelings towards SC2 at the time (simplified game, not as good as BW) blinded them to taking appropriate action on it for the good of the community. Ask yourself these questions: Is there a problem in the community with ESF vs Kespa (flaming/complaining etc.)? Did this article contribute to or even start that problem? Given what you know now, would you have allowed the original article to be posted? My answers are: Yes, Yes, No. Of course it's unfair to judge given 100% hindsight, but it's long been clear that this thread is nothing but a dividing force in the community. Which is why I called for it's long overdue locking. Ah yes, people are not allowed to disagree with each other and any article which prompts people to think and disagree with each other and engage in debate is bad? Let's all agree on everything, no tolerance for dissent.
Yeah...no. This is the internet. Thinking and debating do not happen on a large scale. Did you SEE the state of the Live Report threads for months upon months after KeSPA switched? They were full of bile and hatred and inflammatory statements.
There was no discussion. No debate. Just BW elitists yelling "KeSPA!" when a KeSPA player won and ESF elitists poking fun whenever a popular top KeSPA player failed to win. It was absolutely ridiculous. It was unfriendly, unwelcoming and frankly very unpleasant to read.
It didn't stimulate this utopic community of intellectual discourse you seem to have in mind, it generated hatred and fighting and flaming which continues (albeit to a lesser extent) to this day. And it was always going to, I mean it was pretty obvious...to restate my first point: this is the internet, that is what happens on the internet. If you genuinely believed that it was going to be different then you're a far more optimistic person than I am.
On July 13 2013 01:25 NightOfTheDead wrote:
As long as it is conducted in a civil manner,
There is where your entire point falls down. It has not been civil and never has been civil. You might even argue the original article here wasn't even civil because it was highly insulting to a variety of top players and their fans, as well as fans of SC2 in general at the time.
The whole issue has been tainted with bile and hatred. And it always has been.
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On July 13 2013 01:29 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:12 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 13 2013 01:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 13 2013 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On July 12 2013 22:17 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time. TL+ has all the secrets. Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad Rule 1 of TL+ is you never talk about what happens in TL+ damn it! How could you forget? On July 12 2013 22:41 imallinson wrote:On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense. Pretty sure his point wasn't "there's an evil plan" but was instead "the consequences of posting such an inflammatory article weren't thought through properly at the time". Which to an extent I agree with. The article was flat out proven to be wrong in its assertions, and frankly it was pretty obvious that it would be given how extreme they were, but despite the elephant concept being slain right from the outset its still hanging around like some kind of undead ghoul. Its tiring to see the constant bitching between "KeSPA fans" and "ESF fans" when instead we could have all just been enjoying watching Starcraft 2. I still feel this article single-handedly ruined what could have been an exciting time for SC2 (KeSPA coming over) by making it so confrontational. Thank you, and yes that's exactly what I meant. I thought my point was clear, but upon re-reading perhaps it could be misinterpreted. Let me clarify: I think that the mods own opinions of the article (I think they thought it was correct) and perhaps their general feelings towards SC2 at the time (simplified game, not as good as BW) blinded them to taking appropriate action on it for the good of the community. Ask yourself these questions: Is there a problem in the community with ESF vs Kespa (flaming/complaining etc.)? Did this article contribute to or even start that problem? Given what you know now, would you have allowed the original article to be posted? My answers are: Yes, Yes, No. Of course it's unfair to judge given 100% hindsight, but it's long been clear that this thread is nothing but a dividing force in the community. Which is why I called for it's long overdue locking. Ah yes, people are not allowed to disagree with each other and any article which prompts people to think and disagree with each other and engage in debate is bad? Let's all agree on everything, no tolerance for dissent. Yeah...no. This is the internet. Thinking and debating do not happen on a large scale. Did you SEE the state of the Live Report threads for months upon months after KeSPA switched? They were full of bile and hatred and inflammatory statements. There was no discussion. No debate. Just BW elitists yelling "KeSPA!" when a KeSPA player won and ESF elitists poking fun whenever a popular top KeSPA player failed to win. It was absolutely ridiculous. It was unfriendly, unwelcoming and frankly very unpleasant to read. It didn't stimulate this utopic community of intellectual discourse you seem to have in mind, it generated hatred and fighting and flaming which continues (albeit to a lesser extent) to this day. And it was always going to, I mean it was pretty obvious...to restate my first point: this is the internet, that is what happens on the internet. If you genuinely believed that it was going to be different then you're a far more optimistic person than I am. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:25 NightOfTheDead wrote:
As long as it is conducted in a civil manner, There is where your entire point falls down. It has not been civil and never has been civil. You might even argue the original article here wasn't even civil because it was highly insulting to a variety of top players and their fans, as well as fans of SC2 in general at the time. The whole issue has been tainted with bile and hatred. And it always has been.
The whole thing amuses me. There are shit ton of things that could be different for good. They are not. I don't dig deep into this issue, because it is not worth it. BW elitism was not because of this article. It was much much older. Even if it did promote elitist bashing and flaming, people should get a bit of thick skin. People try to rationalize what they like. Nothing wrong with it. As to civil manner, it is up to people themselves and moderators. You don't expect to go to interwebs, and find everyone is likable and civil. It has never been so.
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On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players.
It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat.
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On July 13 2013 01:25 NightOfTheDead wrote:
So what if there is confrontational views on Kespa vs Esf. As long as it is conducted in a civil manner, it is even more to benefit, cause otherwise it would be dead boring. People always try to find some confrontations to discuss and it is a natural process. Take any sport. Take any political issue. There are different views. It would have been that way even without this article.
This article has won for several reasons. After 3 years, even if you dislike it, you are still discussing it. Also no need to take it too seriously. In certain ways it was right, you don't need to literally accept everything. So many people thinking there is an objective truth. Funny.
Civil manner eh? Like the OP that called the current scene a farce, or the lovely posters that you see. Look at this bloody thread. This was never civil, this is a major cockfight without end (as long as the mods not burn the thread and destroy the server where it is on)
Please, point me out where it was civil, i dare you.
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On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat.
The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest?
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On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat.
I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself.
I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count"
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On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count"
I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised.
On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest?
Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again.
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Bisutopia19152 Posts
On July 13 2013 01:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On July 12 2013 22:17 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time. TL+ has all the secrets. Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad Rule 1 of TL+ is you never talk about what happens in TL+ damn it! How could you forget? On July 12 2013 22:41 imallinson wrote:On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense. Pretty sure his point wasn't "there's an evil plan" but was instead "the consequences of posting such an inflammatory article weren't thought through properly at the time". Which to an extent I agree with. The article was flat out proven to be wrong in its assertions, and frankly it was pretty obvious that it would be given how extreme they were, but despite the elephant concept being slain right from the outset its still hanging around like some kind of undead ghoul. Its tiring to see the constant bitching between "KeSPA fans" and "ESF fans" when instead we could have all just been enjoying watching Starcraft 2. I still feel this article single-handedly ruined what could have been an exciting time for SC2 (KeSPA coming over) by making it so confrontational. Thank you, and yes that's exactly what I meant. I thought my point was clear, but upon re-reading perhaps it could be misinterpreted. Let me clarify: I think that the mods own opinions of the article (I think they thought it was correct) and perhaps their general feelings towards SC2 at the time (simplified game, not as good as BW) blinded them to taking appropriate action on it for the good of the community. Ask yourself these questions: Is there a problem in the community with ESF vs Kespa (flaming/complaining etc.)? Did this article contribute to or even start that problem? Given what you know now, would you have allowed the original article to be posted? My answers are: Yes, Yes, No. Of course it's unfair to judge given 100% hindsight, but it's long been clear that this thread is nothing but a dividing force in the community. Which is why I called for it's long overdue locking.
It's only guys like you who continue to care and take this all so personal that flaming can still exist. There is nothing wrong with rivalry even it is between ESF vs KESPA. But in the end who cares. I"m not offended by who's side you are on. You need to grow some thicker skin. Stop stressing out that there is a divide and wasting energy trying to convince ppl what this article has done.
AND most of all everyone who keeps calling for mods to lock or close the thread need stop! The mods can do there job and if you disagree with their decision then PM one of them and ask for an explanation. But stop littering this thread with demands upon them. It's not your job to backseat mod and you are all violating thread rules yourselves. Stay on topic or get out. That's the last I want to address this.
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On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again.
I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players.
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I beat the author of this article is kicking himself right now XD
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On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players.
But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable.
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