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On July 13 2013 04:31 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post. There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle. Hell, he even closes with this gem: Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players. But that is not how a lot of people see it. A lot of people claim that the article asserted that even the worst Kespa players would dominate the best SC2 players within months (then and now). That is not what the article says. But what you say there... yes, that sounds more like it. And it sounds like something I agree with, if we are speaking about the SC2 pros pre-Kespa. I am not denying that there isn't going to be any new talent coming in. No, that's exactly what the article says? How can you not read that?
"What I'm saying is that there are 300 ..."
THe artcle flat out at multiple place says that even the worst of the worst BW pros could come to SC2 and dominate it. What, do you actually think an article was written to say "Gee, BW players would probably do pretty okay in SC2?", everyone already knew that back then, and everyone still knows it now. What's next, making an article about how splitting marines is good vs banelings?
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On July 13 2013 04:31 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post. There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle. Hell, he even closes with this gem: Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players. But that is not how a lot of people see it. A lot of people claim that the article asserted that even the worst Kespa players would dominate the best SC2 players within months (then and now). That is not what the article says. But what you say there... yes, that sounds more like it. And it sounds like something I agree with, if we are speaking about the SC2 pros pre-Kespa. I am not denying that there isn't going to be any new talent coming in.
WTF are you talking about? That is almost exactly what it says.
On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
You said it almost word for word. Do you think you are fooling anyone?
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On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex.
Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests!
This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey.
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On July 13 2013 04:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:31 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post. There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle. Hell, he even closes with this gem: Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players. But that is not how a lot of people see it. A lot of people claim that the article asserted that even the worst Kespa players would dominate the best SC2 players within months (then and now). That is not what the article says. But what you say there... yes, that sounds more like it. And it sounds like something I agree with, if we are speaking about the SC2 pros pre-Kespa. I am not denying that there isn't going to be any new talent coming in. No, that's exactly what the article says? How can you not read that? "What I'm saying is that there are 300 ..." THe artcle flat out at multiple place says that even the worst of the worst BW pros could come to SC2 and dominate it. What, do you actually think an article was written to say "Gee, BW players would probably do pretty okay in SC2?", everyone already knew that back then, and everyone still knows it now. What's next, making an article about how splitting marines is good vs banelings?
Despite all the bashing of guys like MC and MVP, they in fact were good enough to be in that top 300. Intrigue knows the scene and was therefore very probably aware of this. Therefore, when speaking of dominating, Intrigue meant that there are 300 guys who had the potential to dominate the scene in the way MVP and MC did. Not dominate them as well. The people who had the potential to do that would be numbered less than 300.
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On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey.
I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it.
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On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it.
You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching.
You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. He was wrong.
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On July 13 2013 05:01 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 13 2013 04:31 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post. There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle. Hell, he even closes with this gem: Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players. But that is not how a lot of people see it. A lot of people claim that the article asserted that even the worst Kespa players would dominate the best SC2 players within months (then and now). That is not what the article says. But what you say there... yes, that sounds more like it. And it sounds like something I agree with, if we are speaking about the SC2 pros pre-Kespa. I am not denying that there isn't going to be any new talent coming in. No, that's exactly what the article says? How can you not read that? "What I'm saying is that there are 300 ..." THe artcle flat out at multiple place says that even the worst of the worst BW pros could come to SC2 and dominate it. What, do you actually think an article was written to say "Gee, BW players would probably do pretty okay in SC2?", everyone already knew that back then, and everyone still knows it now. What's next, making an article about how splitting marines is good vs banelings? Despite all the bashing of guys like MC and MVP, they in fact were good enough to be in that top 300. Intrigue knows the scene and was therefore very probably aware of this. Therefore, when speaking of dominating, Intrigue meant that there are 300 guys who had the potential to dominate the scene in the way MVP and MC did. Not dominate them as well. The people who had the potential to do that would be numbered less than 300. Even assuming this you can make this leap of faith. This was at a time that MC and Mvp were basically the two best players in the world. 300 players who could become at that level at the time. You think so?
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On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S.
You already misunderstood a very simple argument I made earlier. Why is so out of question for you that you might have misunderstood this one as well? Consider how imprecise you are here: Intrigue did not say 300 people could crush, Intrigue said only a few could, the word that was used was 'dominate'. Clearly 'dominate' and 'crush' mean separate things in this instance. Important distinction and you already managed to screw it up.
On July 13 2013 05:13 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 13 2013 04:31 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post. There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle. Hell, he even closes with this gem: Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players. But that is not how a lot of people see it. A lot of people claim that the article asserted that even the worst Kespa players would dominate the best SC2 players within months (then and now). That is not what the article says. But what you say there... yes, that sounds more like it. And it sounds like something I agree with, if we are speaking about the SC2 pros pre-Kespa. I am not denying that there isn't going to be any new talent coming in. No, that's exactly what the article says? How can you not read that? "What I'm saying is that there are 300 ..." THe artcle flat out at multiple place says that even the worst of the worst BW pros could come to SC2 and dominate it. What, do you actually think an article was written to say "Gee, BW players would probably do pretty okay in SC2?", everyone already knew that back then, and everyone still knows it now. What's next, making an article about how splitting marines is good vs banelings? Despite all the bashing of guys like MC and MVP, they in fact were good enough to be in that top 300. Intrigue knows the scene and was therefore very probably aware of this. Therefore, when speaking of dominating, Intrigue meant that there are 300 guys who had the potential to dominate the scene in the way MVP and MC did. Not dominate them as well. The people who had the potential to do that would be numbered less than 300. Even assuming this you can make this leap of faith. This was at a time that MC and Mvp were basically the two best players in the world. 300 players who could become at that level at the time. You think so?
I am not sure what your first sentence means.
Well, not exactly. 300 people with the same potential. Not all would make it of course but had the switch happened at that time, then yes, I do think there would have been a large number of players as good and a large number of better players. I think MC and MVP would have been remembered as average at best and the competition a farce prior to the switch.
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On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey.
I completely agree. It's been a while since I read the OP but it was pretty black and white.
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On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. He was wrong.
Pretty much this. Why are we discussing this joke of a thread anyway?
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On July 13 2013 05:28 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. You already misunderstood a very simple argument I made earlier. Why is so out of question for you that you might have misunderstood this one as well? Consider how imprecise you are here: Intrigue did not say 300 people could crush, Intrigue said only a few could, the word that was used was 'dominate'. Clearly 'dominate' and 'crush' mean separate things in this instance. Important distinction and you already managed to screw it up.
Yeah, I think thats some selective reading on your part. The OP is black and white, no mater how much you claim otherwise. He said the 300 Kepsa pros the potential to come into the scene at any time and dominate. He did not say that they each have the potential to do well at SC2.
Once again, you have a case of selective reading and don't provide any real arguments. You just claim that we misread the OP over and over. The OP was wrong, flat out. You can't now go back and say, "No, he was right. Everyone else was just reading it wrong all this time."
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On July 13 2013 05:46 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. He was wrong. Pretty much this. Why are we discussing this joke of a thread anyway?
Well someone came in there and tried to claim the OP was right all this time and make a creative argument as to why. Then his main argument has been that everyone else just doesn't understand and the OP is both simple and complex. Its the classic strawman, where he just claims we don't understand over and over.
So you know, standard TL bullshit.
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On July 13 2013 04:31 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post. There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle. Hell, he even closes with this gem: Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players. But that is not how a lot of people see it. A lot of people claim that the article asserted that even the worst Kespa players would dominate the best SC2 players within months (then and now). That is not what the article says. But what you say there... yes, that sounds more like it. And it sounds like something I agree with, if we are speaking about the SC2 pros pre-Kespa. I am not denying that there isn't going to be any new talent coming in.
Let's clarify something here: the article did not state that the best SC2 players would be dominated by the worst Kespa players. It said that the best SC2 players were the worst Kespa players.
The "300 players" line did not mean that the top 300 would be all Kespa after a transition. It meant that the MCs and MVPs were such terrible players that anyone in the top 300 of the current Kespa were capable of doing the same.
Let's reiterate here: He stated, explicitly, that the 300th ranked player in Kespa was comparable to MC and MVP. The equivalent today would be me saying ROOTCatZ had the potential to win a BW OSL championship.
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On July 13 2013 05:28 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. You already misunderstood a very simple argument I made earlier. Why is so out of question for you that you might have misunderstood this one as well? Consider how imprecise you are here: Intrigue did not say 300 people could crush, Intrigue said only a few could, the word that was used was 'dominate'. Clearly 'dominate' and 'crush' mean separate things in this instance. Important distinction and you already managed to screw it up.
You keep repeating this same argument and everyone else keeps telling you that you're wrong. Intrigue did say that the top 300 BW professionals could come into the SC2 scene and take over the top level within months. And yes, dominate and crush mean different things here. 'Dominate' means, 'almost always beat' or 'consistently out-perform'. 'Crush' means, 'completelyfuckingobliteratejustlikeinbroodwarbecausetheyaretoofuckinggoodatstarcraft'. He said that none of the top level SC2 players would remain at the top when the s-class BW players switched across. He was wrong, and so are you for arguing that he meant otherwise.
Also, stop telling everyone they don't understand the article while you do, whether you believe it or not. It makes you come across as having a superiority complex.
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It's also funny if you read back this thread how the defenders of the article collectively watered down the claim over and over:
First it was like 'yeah, this article is spot on, when the BW A-teamers switch MC is totally out of business.'
Then came the point where ForGG and Hyun switched and they were like 'Yeah, ForGG is totally easily going to win the GSL (Out in the Ro32, Leenock and MC showed him what was up)
Then KeSPA formally made the switch 'Oh boy, now the eSF players are going tob e out of business completely in months. (didn't happen)
When it was clear it didn't happen, then it became. "But the article never claimed they would be out of business, you need to read between the lines!" or "The skill ceiling of the game is just so low Flash and Jaedong can't differentiate themselves." or even worse, they just claim that the KeSPA players are "dominating" while they clearly aren't and the eSF players and KeSPA are currently trading blow for blow in WCS KR and this is even ignoring that some of the best non KeSPA players are playing in other regions. The global finals made it pretty obvious that Mvp is still a top contender who if he played in WCS KR premier would more than hold his own against the typical KeSPA player.
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On July 13 2013 05:58 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:28 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. You already misunderstood a very simple argument I made earlier. Why is so out of question for you that you might have misunderstood this one as well? Consider how imprecise you are here: Intrigue did not say 300 people could crush, Intrigue said only a few could, the word that was used was 'dominate'. Clearly 'dominate' and 'crush' mean separate things in this instance. Important distinction and you already managed to screw it up. You keep repeating this same argument and everyone else keeps telling you that you're wrong. Intrigue did say that the top 300 BW professionals could come into the SC2 scene and take over the top level within months. And yes, dominate and crush mean different things here. 'Dominate' means, 'almost always beat' or 'consistently out-perform'. 'Crush' means, 'completelyfuckingobliteratejustlikeinbroodwarbecausetheyaretoofuckinggoodatstarcraft'. He said that none of the top level SC2 players would remain at the top when the s-class BW players switched across. He was wrong, and so are you for arguing that he meant otherwise. Also, stop telling everyone they don't understand the article while you do, whether you believe it or not. It makes you come across as having a superiority complex.
I am not telling everyone that they don't understand the article. WolfintheSheep there appears to have no problems understanding it. Plansix on the other hand...
First you would have to define 'top'. If by top you mean the 300 best players would be the 300 Kespa players who had not switched, then no, he did not say that. If by top you mean, for example, Code S would be populated entirely of Kespa players, then yes, he did mean that. Perhaps one could allow for an exception or a two even, particularly because of the slow transition of players due to how Code B/A/S works. If you meant that if only the four or so S-class would switch and be the four or so best players, then that would be tough to judge, as they would not benefit from their team house environment. I think the general claim that Kespa is much superior is true and will continue to become more apparent.
I think something like 20 or so out of 32 in Code S will be Kespa in the medium run. Seven or so new talent and the remaining 5 will be the ESF guys pre-Kespa. In the long-run new talent will become more significant, given that the game remains popular.
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On July 13 2013 06:37 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:58 HystericaLaughter wrote:On July 13 2013 05:28 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. You already misunderstood a very simple argument I made earlier. Why is so out of question for you that you might have misunderstood this one as well? Consider how imprecise you are here: Intrigue did not say 300 people could crush, Intrigue said only a few could, the word that was used was 'dominate'. Clearly 'dominate' and 'crush' mean separate things in this instance. Important distinction and you already managed to screw it up. You keep repeating this same argument and everyone else keeps telling you that you're wrong. Intrigue did say that the top 300 BW professionals could come into the SC2 scene and take over the top level within months. And yes, dominate and crush mean different things here. 'Dominate' means, 'almost always beat' or 'consistently out-perform'. 'Crush' means, 'completelyfuckingobliteratejustlikeinbroodwarbecausetheyaretoofuckinggoodatstarcraft'. He said that none of the top level SC2 players would remain at the top when the s-class BW players switched across. He was wrong, and so are you for arguing that he meant otherwise. Also, stop telling everyone they don't understand the article while you do, whether you believe it or not. It makes you come across as having a superiority complex. I am not telling everyone that they don't understand the article. WolfintheSheep there appears to have no problems understanding it. Plansix on the other hand... First you would have to define 'top'. If by top you mean the 300 best players would be the 300 Kespa players who had not switched, then no, he did not say that. If by top you mean, for example, Code S would be populated entirely of Kespa players, then yes, he did mean that. Perhaps one could allow for an exception or a two even, particularly because of the slow transition of players due to how Code B/A/S works. If you meant that if only the four or so S-class would switch and be the four or so best players, then that would be tough to judge, as they would not benefit from their team house environment. I think the general claim that Kespa is much superior is true and will continue to become more apparent. I think something like 20 or so out of 32 in Code S will be Kespa in the medium run. Seven or so new talent and the remaining 5 will be the ESF guys pre-Kespa. In the long-run new talent will become more significant, given that the game remains popular.
What he meant was the entirety of Code S would be Kespa players, and nearly the entirety of Code A, with the current best of the best players struggling to fill the bottom few spots of Code A, while the current mid-tier players faded from existence. Intrigue said that would happen because that is where they were in BW.
You are correct, he didn't mean that the top 300 BW players would cement themselves as the top 300 in the SC2 scene, he meant that of the top 300 BW players, whichever 50 or so acclimatized to SC2 the best would form the new Code S and most of Code A. On top of that, the true powerhouses of BW - Flash, Jaedong etc. would continue their dominance in the new game. He was wrong on both counts.
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and then bomber dares to beat flash. . .
But if all the people get it wrong why don't you write some elaborate piece to educate us all what intrigue really meant?
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On July 13 2013 05:46 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 05:13 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 05:02 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 04:40 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. Oh god, the classic "It wasn't wrong, you just weren't smart enough to grasp its complexities". I remember when I was in high school and had an inflated ego and since I couldn't stand being wrong, I would try to pull this on my classmates/friends when I didn't want to admit I was wrong in a discussion. That certainly won me a lot of popularity contests! This article wasn't rocket science. It made some very clear statements and sent a very clear message. If telling yourself that people aren't smart enough to grasp the argument the OP was making helps you sleep at night then all the more power to you, I guess, but it just makes you look desperate and douchey. I agree, the article was very clear and not complex at all. Yet people continue to misunderstand it. Maybe it is because they want to misunderstand it. You are the only one who wants to misunderstand the OP. And you want it really badly, because anything else means your wrong. People have quoted the exact point where Intrigue says that 300 Kespa players have the potential to crush the scene and knowing that makes the SC2 not really worth watching. You can sugar coat it all you want, but he was just shitting on the SC2 champs of the time and saying "Wait until the Kepsa players get here, then you will see real players." They came, a lot of them got their ass kicked. A lot got in to Code S. He was wrong. Pretty much this. Why are we discussing this joke of a thread anyway?
Because we are discussing The Elephant within the elephant. Don't you think it is funny lol
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Is it just me or anyone else notice that Kespa don't even have 300 players? They have max like 200 or something.
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EPT
