|
On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players.
Ahm, I'd like to name a list of players (apart from Innovation) which are definitely better than Flash right now:
Soulkey, Bomber, First, Rain, sOs;
+ some people that are probably as strong as Flash:
Maru, Mvp, Symbol, RoRo, Polt
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG, I clicked on the send button, I'm doooooommmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddd
|
On July 13 2013 02:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. Ahm, I'd like to name a list of players (apart from Innovation) which are definitely better than Flash right now: Soulkey, Bomber, First, Rain, sOs; + some people that are probably as strong as Flash: Maru, Mvp, Symbol, RoRo, Polt AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG, I clicked on the send button, I'm doooooommmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddd
Most wins in proleague should mean something. Anything? And yea, Bomber beating Flash once makes him FAR superior.
|
On July 13 2013 02:12 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable.
But that's the argument of the OP, that all the ESF players will be be doomed once Kespa gets in there. But thats not what is happening at all. Parting was so fucking good he got signed to a Kespa team.
So you don't agree with the OP that the Kespa players will dominate?
On July 13 2013 02:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. Ahm, I'd like to name a list of players (apart from Innovation) which are definitely better than Flash right now: Soulkey, Bomber, First, Rain, sOs; + some people that are probably as strong as Flash: Maru, Mvp, Symbol, RoRo, Polt AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG, I clicked on the send button, I'm doooooommmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddd
Whoa man, look those players like Bomber got lucky and clearly Flash had a bad breakfast. He needs to beat Flash at LEAST 15 more times before we can consider that he might be good. As for those other guys, like MVP and Polt, they need to win more events that are full of Kespa players. No ESF or non-koreans, they make it to easy for Polt and MVP. All Kespa or they don't matter.
|
On July 13 2013 02:03 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 13 2013 00:14 -Celestial- wrote:On July 12 2013 22:17 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time. TL+ has all the secrets. Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad Rule 1 of TL+ is you never talk about what happens in TL+ damn it! How could you forget? On July 12 2013 22:41 imallinson wrote:On July 12 2013 20:36 kollin wrote:On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more. Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers How could he ever discover the evil plan to destroy the community from the inside. It was so well hidden behind the veil of making absolutely zero sense. Pretty sure his point wasn't "there's an evil plan" but was instead "the consequences of posting such an inflammatory article weren't thought through properly at the time". Which to an extent I agree with. The article was flat out proven to be wrong in its assertions, and frankly it was pretty obvious that it would be given how extreme they were, but despite the elephant concept being slain right from the outset its still hanging around like some kind of undead ghoul. Its tiring to see the constant bitching between "KeSPA fans" and "ESF fans" when instead we could have all just been enjoying watching Starcraft 2. I still feel this article single-handedly ruined what could have been an exciting time for SC2 (KeSPA coming over) by making it so confrontational. Thank you, and yes that's exactly what I meant. I thought my point was clear, but upon re-reading perhaps it could be misinterpreted. Let me clarify: I think that the mods own opinions of the article (I think they thought it was correct) and perhaps their general feelings towards SC2 at the time (simplified game, not as good as BW) blinded them to taking appropriate action on it for the good of the community. Ask yourself these questions: Is there a problem in the community with ESF vs Kespa (flaming/complaining etc.)? Did this article contribute to or even start that problem? Given what you know now, would you have allowed the original article to be posted? My answers are: Yes, Yes, No. Of course it's unfair to judge given 100% hindsight, but it's long been clear that this thread is nothing but a dividing force in the community. Which is why I called for it's long overdue locking. It's only guys like you who continue to care and take this all so personal that flaming can still exist. There is nothing wrong with rivalry even it is between ESF vs KESPA. But in the end who cares. I"m not offended by who's side you are on. You need to grow some thicker skin. Stop stressing out that there is a divide and wasting energy trying to convince ppl what this article has done. AND most of all everyone who keeps calling for mods to lock or close the thread need stop! The mods can do there job and if you disagree with their decision then PM one of them and ask for an explanation. But stop littering this thread with demands upon them. It's not your job to backseat mod and you are all violating thread rules yourselves. Stay on topic or get out. That's the last I want to address this.
A little flaming is not bad anyway, such as when ESF were referred to as dishwashers. It is not only normal for rivalries to exist but beneficial as well. It makes the matches more interesting when there's some face to lose and emotions being invested. It is only normal as well and obviously will not go away. There exists no sport without rivalries and some flaming. And that is for a reason.
|
On July 13 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable. But that's the argument of the OP, that all the ESF players will be be doomed once Kespa gets in there. But thats not what is happening at all. Parting was so fucking good he got signed to a Kespa team. So you don't agree with the OP that the Kespa players will dominate?
But that is not the argument I made.
No, I agree with it. But again, that is not what I was talking about at all. Boy, you must feel dumb now!
However, about Parting: most of the ESF players were signed in a Kespa team prior to SC2 anyway. Intrigue knew this. Intrigue also knew that many of them were among the top 300 Kespa players. I hope that tells you something about the argument he made.
|
On July 13 2013 02:22 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:18 Big J wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. Ahm, I'd like to name a list of players (apart from Innovation) which are definitely better than Flash right now: Soulkey, Bomber, First, Rain, sOs; + some people that are probably as strong as Flash: Maru, Mvp, Symbol, RoRo, Polt AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG, I clicked on the send button, I'm doooooommmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddd Most wins in proleague should mean something. Anything? And yea, Bomber beating Flash once makes him FAR superior.
It means something. According to what I said he is somwhere between number 6th to 12th on the list of best players in the world. I'd say that's quite a good player. Would basically make it into every dreamteam.
|
On July 13 2013 02:22 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:18 Big J wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. Ahm, I'd like to name a list of players (apart from Innovation) which are definitely better than Flash right now: Soulkey, Bomber, First, Rain, sOs; + some people that are probably as strong as Flash: Maru, Mvp, Symbol, RoRo, Polt AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARG, I clicked on the send button, I'm doooooommmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddd Most wins in proleague should mean something. Anything? And yea, Bomber beating Flash once makes him FAR superior.
Beating Flash once does´nt prove anything. However, making it into top 8 of WCS Korea twice in a row, while Flash both times did go out in the ro16 says something. And noone was talking about FAR superior, just a little bit better.
|
On July 13 2013 02:30 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable. But that's the argument of the OP, that all the ESF players will be be doomed once Kespa gets in there. But thats not what is happening at all. Parting was so fucking good he got signed to a Kespa team. So you don't agree with the OP that the Kespa players will dominate? But that is not the argument I made. No, I agree with it. But again, that is not what I was talking about at all. Boy, you must feel dumb now! However, about Parting: most of the ESF players were signed in a Kespa team prior to SC2 anyway. Intrigue knew this. Intrigue also knew that many of them were among the top 300 Kespa players. I hope that tells you something about the argument he made.
Wait, you both disagree and agree with the OP? I don't get it. His argument was that most of the ESF players were failed BW players, so Kespa would kick their ass when they switched. That has not turned out to be 100% true. Polt beat up some Kespa players recently and they don't win every WCS match.
What is your argument again, because you seem to just be saying "Kespa players are better, except when they aren't"
|
On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat.
So just to clarify. once all the current KESPA players retire, the level of skill will go down?
|
Most wins in proleague should mean something. Anything? And yea, Bomber beating Flash once makes him FAR superior.
Most wins doesn't mean much compared to 'win percentage' of course. Flash is sent out a lot, which is obviously a function of his team's confidence in him, but also a function of Flash being the only even decent Terran on his team. This also in fact due to the inclusion of the all kill format contaminates the win percentage metric. For instance, say Flash is good enough to get 3 kills and Innovation is good enough to get 4 kills (all kills). But Flash is simply sent out more than innovation because let's say hypotheticallyt here's another good Terran player on STX who has to share primetime with Innovation. This will greatly inflate Flash' winrate and win count opposed to Innovation even though Innovation is better but they send him out less because STX also has another good Terran.
On July 13 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:
Whoa man, look those players like Bomber got lucky and clearly Flash had a bad breakfast. He needs to beat Flash at LEAST 15 more times before we can consider that he might be good. As for those other guys, like MVP and Polt, they need to win more events that are full of Kespa players. No ESF or non-koreans, they make it to easy for Polt and MVP. All Kespa or they don't matter. So why doesn't the same standard apply to Flash? He beats Soulkey or BBoongboong or whoever once and people herald him as Lord High Supreme Terran player.
In the time that Flash has been on the scene or even in the time of HotS. Bomber has done more than Flash.
|
On July 13 2013 02:48 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +
Most wins in proleague should mean something. Anything? And yea, Bomber beating Flash once makes him FAR superior.
Most wins doesn't mean much compared to 'win percentage' of course. Flash is sent out a lot, which is obviously a function of his team's confidence in him, but also a function of Flash being the only even decent Terran on his team. This also in fact due to the inclusion of the all kill format contaminates the win percentage metric. For instance, say Flash is good enough to get 3 kills and Innovation is good enough to get 4 kills (all kills). But Flash is simply sent out more than innovation because let's say hypotheticallyt here's another good Terran player on STX who has to share primetime with Innovation. This will greatly inflate Flash' winrate and win count opposed to Innovation even though Innovation is better but they send him out less because STX also has another good Terran.
His win % is the same or better than all top 10 players (Rain is 3% better though). You cant get sent out more than the format allows, and if you cant all kill, means you cant all kill, and that has nothing to do with 'contamination of win percentage metric'. It means that he got the wins when he could, being sent out as much as other good players, while maintaining better or same win percentage.
Btw, I don't disagree with you, but I wouldn't mention his most wins, without having win% in mind too. All kill format is not luck though, so this argument only reinforces him getting more wins.
|
People don't get scarcasm.
|
On July 13 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable. But that's the argument of the OP, that all the ESF players will be be doomed once Kespa gets in there. But thats not what is happening at all. Parting was so fucking good he got signed to a Kespa team. So you don't agree with the OP that the Kespa players will dominate? But that is not the argument I made. No, I agree with it. But again, that is not what I was talking about at all. Boy, you must feel dumb now! However, about Parting: most of the ESF players were signed in a Kespa team prior to SC2 anyway. Intrigue knew this. Intrigue also knew that many of them were among the top 300 Kespa players. I hope that tells you something about the argument he made. Wait, you both disagree and agree with the OP? I don't get it. His argument was that most of the ESF players were failed BW players, so Kespa would kick their ass when they switched. That has not turned out to be 100% true. Polt beat up some Kespa players recently and they don't win every WCS match. What is your argument again, because you seem to just be saying "Kespa players are better, except when they aren't"
Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
On July 13 2013 02:46 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. So just to clarify. once all the current KESPA players retire, the level of skill will go down?
I don't know. It is possible. It depends on the success of the game in the long-run. If the game does not retain interest and fails to grow, then likely the talented people will play some other games. If the game does retain interest and grows then talented players will play the game. In the latter scenario I don't see the skill level going down.
|
On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:
Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
So who's denying this? The vast majority of SC2 players were also BW pros at some point yeah, seems obvious since SC2 is the highly similar second installment of that game? If you're good at Rugby you're probably also good at American football and Rugby was there earlier.
However that all has nothing to do with this article which asserted that BW was such a better, nobler, harder game that even the worst BW players could come to SC2 at any point and become Bonjwas.
|
On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 00:32 Jerubaal wrote:
This article really was doomed from the start. The mistake it made was not believing in time. The timing just doesn't make sense at all. The players at the top of BW are at least in the prime of their careers, if not on the back end. It's not reasonable for those people to come over to SC2 and be as good at it as they were in BW.
Or at least that's how it appears: The real assertion of the article is that BW is the font from which all RTS genius springs and all other games are facile, which is a ridiculous statement. Extending the ridiculousness of the premise, a further conclusion would be that once players stopped playing BW first, there would no longer be good SC2 players. It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable. But that's the argument of the OP, that all the ESF players will be be doomed once Kespa gets in there. But thats not what is happening at all. Parting was so fucking good he got signed to a Kespa team. So you don't agree with the OP that the Kespa players will dominate? But that is not the argument I made. No, I agree with it. But again, that is not what I was talking about at all. Boy, you must feel dumb now! However, about Parting: most of the ESF players were signed in a Kespa team prior to SC2 anyway. Intrigue knew this. Intrigue also knew that many of them were among the top 300 Kespa players. I hope that tells you something about the argument he made. Wait, you both disagree and agree with the OP? I don't get it. His argument was that most of the ESF players were failed BW players, so Kespa would kick their ass when they switched. That has not turned out to be 100% true. Polt beat up some Kespa players recently and they don't win every WCS match. What is your argument again, because you seem to just be saying "Kespa players are better, except when they aren't" Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
Well, I didn't expect your argument to be so...flexable. No one is really going to argue that the Kepsa players are not talented, but I don't think it has much to do with BW. It has a lot more to do with Kespa and OGN running a weekly league for 10 years straight. They refined the entire process down to a science. If the game of choice has been WC3 and Kespa focused on that for 10 years, Kespa would still have the largest number of talented players. But that is doe to having a larger number pool with years of build up.
On July 13 2013 03:45 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:
Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
So who's denying this? The vast majority of SC2 players were also BW pros at some point yeah, seems obvious since SC2 is the highly similar second installment of that game? If you're good at Rugby you're probably also good at American football and Rugby was there earlier. However that all has nothing to do with this article which asserted that BW was such a better, nobler, harder game that even the worst BW players could come to SC2 at any point and become Bonjwas.
I think he skipped that part of the OP or is just ignoring it. I can't blame him, its the dumbest part of the OP.
|
On July 13 2013 03:45 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:
Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
So who's denying this? The vast majority of SC2 players were also BW pros at some point yeah, seems obvious since SC2 is the highly similar second installment of that game? If you're good at Rugby you're probably also good at American football and Rugby was there earlier. However that all has nothing to do with this article which asserted that BW was such a better, nobler, harder game that even the worst BW players could come to SC2 at any point and become Bonjwas.
Apparently Jerubaal did, which is why I replied to him. Moreover, SC2 really isn't all that similar to BW. Some have even claimed it feels more like WC3 but without the heroes.
But it has everything to do with what I replied to. And again, there is no such assertion found in the article, rather you will find an argument and the argument is trying to say something very different.
On July 13 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:
[quote]
It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself. I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:On July 13 2013 01:49 Squeegy wrote:
[quote]
It is not a ridiculous statement. It is pretty much true. The next best thing is WC3, who have simply not been able to match BW. There are a few players who have been able to compete but that's really it. And now with Kespa, the miracle of Polt's GSL win will not repeat. The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable. But that's the argument of the OP, that all the ESF players will be be doomed once Kespa gets in there. But thats not what is happening at all. Parting was so fucking good he got signed to a Kespa team. So you don't agree with the OP that the Kespa players will dominate? But that is not the argument I made. No, I agree with it. But again, that is not what I was talking about at all. Boy, you must feel dumb now! However, about Parting: most of the ESF players were signed in a Kespa team prior to SC2 anyway. Intrigue knew this. Intrigue also knew that many of them were among the top 300 Kespa players. I hope that tells you something about the argument he made. Wait, you both disagree and agree with the OP? I don't get it. His argument was that most of the ESF players were failed BW players, so Kespa would kick their ass when they switched. That has not turned out to be 100% true. Polt beat up some Kespa players recently and they don't win every WCS match. What is your argument again, because you seem to just be saying "Kespa players are better, except when they aren't" Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2. Well, I didn't expect your argument to be so...flexable. No one is really going to argue that the Kepsa players are not talented, but I don't think it has much to do with BW. It has a lot more to do with Kespa and OGN running a weekly league for 10 years straight. They refined the entire process down to a science. If the game of choice has been WC3 and Kespa focused on that for 10 years, Kespa would still have the largest number of talented players. But that is doe to having a larger number pool with years of build up. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:45 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:
Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
So who's denying this? The vast majority of SC2 players were also BW pros at some point yeah, seems obvious since SC2 is the highly similar second installment of that game? If you're good at Rugby you're probably also good at American football and Rugby was there earlier. However that all has nothing to do with this article which asserted that BW was such a better, nobler, harder game that even the worst BW players could come to SC2 at any point and become Bonjwas. I think he skipped that part of the OP or is just ignoring it. I can't blame him, its the dumbest part of the OP.
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex.
|
Why are people still discussing this article at all? As far as I know it has been totally disproven. Kespa has made the full switch over to SC2 and are well established in the scene, but I still see plenty of ESF players in code S season after season. Yes, there are more Kespa players than ESF players, but the point is this didn't happen:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
It was a completely ridiculous statement when it was made, and is completely ridiculous now. BW and SC2 are similar enough that top level BW players will be top level SC2 players, but different enough that being the best at BW doesn't guarantee you will be the best at SC2 (Read - Jaedong, Flash). I can't even understand why people are more interested in the competition between organisations than the competition between players. Is it so hard to have a favourite player/team and support them, rather than supporting a brand?
|
On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex.
I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post.
There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle.
Hell, he even closes with this gem:
Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats.
There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players.
|
On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:45 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:
Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
So who's denying this? The vast majority of SC2 players were also BW pros at some point yeah, seems obvious since SC2 is the highly similar second installment of that game? If you're good at Rugby you're probably also good at American football and Rugby was there earlier. However that all has nothing to do with this article which asserted that BW was such a better, nobler, harder game that even the worst BW players could come to SC2 at any point and become Bonjwas. Apparently Jerubaal did, which is why I replied to him. Moreover, SC2 really isn't all that similar to BW. Some have even claimed it feels more like WC3 but without the heroes. But it has everything to do with what I replied to. And again, there is no such assertion found in the article, rather you will find an argument and the argument is trying to say something very different. Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 03:50 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:30 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:23 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:12 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:On July 13 2013 02:01 Squeegy wrote:On July 13 2013 01:54 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I would hope not, he is in Texas going to school. He would flunk out if he was in the GSL. I guess your theory proves itself.
I love these arguments. "Its pretty much true, unless is isn't, and then I will have an excuse why it doesn't count" I don't think you know what my argument was if you think that's it. You might want to re-read it a few times. You'd be surprised. On July 13 2013 01:51 Assirra wrote:
[quote]
The Miracle where he simply played better then the rest? Yes, the miracle where he simply played better than the rest. No WC3 player will do it again. I read your argument, its bad and doesn't provide anything. Its the standard "I'm going to stay something on the internet and then demand YOU prove me wrong." No one is going to argue that Flash and Innovation aren't the best players in the world right now, because they are. But the rest of Kespa and the b-teamers, totally beatable. You know why we know that, because it happened already at MLG. That is why the OP sucks, because it assumes that no one will beat any Kespa players. But my argument wasn't that Flash and Innovation are the best players in the world. Or that Kespa players are unbeatable. But that's the argument of the OP, that all the ESF players will be be doomed once Kespa gets in there. But thats not what is happening at all. Parting was so fucking good he got signed to a Kespa team. So you don't agree with the OP that the Kespa players will dominate? But that is not the argument I made. No, I agree with it. But again, that is not what I was talking about at all. Boy, you must feel dumb now! However, about Parting: most of the ESF players were signed in a Kespa team prior to SC2 anyway. Intrigue knew this. Intrigue also knew that many of them were among the top 300 Kespa players. I hope that tells you something about the argument he made. Wait, you both disagree and agree with the OP? I don't get it. His argument was that most of the ESF players were failed BW players, so Kespa would kick their ass when they switched. That has not turned out to be 100% true. Polt beat up some Kespa players recently and they don't win every WCS match. What is your argument again, because you seem to just be saying "Kespa players are better, except when they aren't" Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2. Well, I didn't expect your argument to be so...flexable. No one is really going to argue that the Kepsa players are not talented, but I don't think it has much to do with BW. It has a lot more to do with Kespa and OGN running a weekly league for 10 years straight. They refined the entire process down to a science. If the game of choice has been WC3 and Kespa focused on that for 10 years, Kespa would still have the largest number of talented players. But that is doe to having a larger number pool with years of build up. On July 13 2013 03:45 SiskosGoatee wrote:On July 13 2013 03:41 Squeegy wrote:
Exactly, you don't get it. That is what I have been trying to tell you. I was pointing out that BW is the game from which generally the best players come from. This was evident pre-Kespa SC2 and more-so post-Kespa SC2.
So who's denying this? The vast majority of SC2 players were also BW pros at some point yeah, seems obvious since SC2 is the highly similar second installment of that game? If you're good at Rugby you're probably also good at American football and Rugby was there earlier. However that all has nothing to do with this article which asserted that BW was such a better, nobler, harder game that even the worst BW players could come to SC2 at any point and become Bonjwas. I think he skipped that part of the OP or is just ignoring it. I can't blame him, its the dumbest part of the OP. You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient. It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself. You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex.
I assume very little and acting like there is some deeper meaning to the OP doesn't make that true. Really, he sums it up with this statement right here:
On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
All the rest is a lot of window dressing. He spends the majority of the his time shitting on the highly ranked SC2 players of that era and then closes out with this statment. His whole argument boils down to the idea that ESF players were on the clock the instant the Kespa players switched. But it has proven to be incorrect and only some of the ESF players have struggled, while other have held their own.
You can dress up your statment any way you want, but the OP was wrong. Kespa has a large pool of talent players, but they are not the only players winning. And as long as players like Polt kick the crap out of Kespa players are events like MLG, the OP will continue to be flat out wrong.
|
On July 13 2013 04:21 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 04:14 Squeegy wrote:
You should not expect arguments to be this or that. You should try and understand them. It is much more efficient.
It is the combination of the talent pool, the practise regime, the competition and the skills promoted and required by the game. The game BW is only a part of the mix, yes, but still a part. However, when I said the talent came from BW, I did not mean it was caused by some intrinsic quality of the game itself.
You should not assume and expect things. You seem to be wrong each time you do that. The argument in the OP is not in fact dumb at all once you actually understand what the OP is saying. Don't get caught by the rhetoric devices. If you misunderstood my argument by so much, don't you think it is quite possible you haven't grasped the OP either, as it is more complex. I think you're just ignoring the OP. He spends the first half detailing, in extreme detail, why every single of the top players of SC2 at that time were complete and utter trash. That's not "rhetoric devices", that's literally the entire crux of his post. There is absolutely nothing complex about the writer's argument. You're just ignoring what he says explicitly and pretending that it's subtle. Hell, he even closes with this gem: Show nested quote +Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. There is no subtlety there. He's saying, plain as day, that he thought all of those top SC2 pros could never compare to top BW players.
But that is not how a lot of people see it. A lot of people claim that the article asserted that even the worst Kespa players would dominate the best SC2 players within months (then and now). That is not what the article says. But what you say there... yes, that sounds more like it. And it sounds like something I agree with, if we are speaking about the SC2 pros pre-Kespa. I am not denying that there isn't going to be any new talent coming in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
