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On July 12 2013 16:56 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. The word to look at here is potential. And considering KeSPA has taken half to a little bit more than half the top ro32 or ro16 places when the competition is so much stronger this wasn't an unfair comment to make. What he didn't say was that there would be no non-bw pros left. As for the notable few, well we're seeing exactly that with Bogus, Flash, Soulkey, Roro etc. Their runs and position amongst the top confirms Intrigue's point.
The article starts by calling the top SC2 players (which includes MC) well below average. He spends an entire paragraph talking about how MC was an utter joke in BW.
Don't try to kid yourself. He explicitly went out of his way to call every single of the best SC2 players (at that time) no talent hacks who would get buried by the entirety of Kespa.
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The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more.
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Unfortunately, TL staff have allowed this thread to rot and stink for over two years now, and have done absolutely nothing to stop its constant necroing.
If they haven't closed it by now, it's probably generating good page hits for them.
On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more.
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I can't believe this is still being talked about... In all honesty sc2 is a different game, the ceiling is different, and in my opinion harder for the top pros to create as much seperation as was possible in BW. Hence why we see a bit less dominance overall. Let's stop making it Kespa vs Esf.
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hey waxangel time to move this out of sc2 general again
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On July 12 2013 17:42 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 17:19 Shellshock1122 wrote:On July 12 2013 17:09 lichter wrote:
Might as well argue who would win:
A dragon with goldfish eyeballs armed with a claymore or a giant wallaby-ankylosaurus hybrid whose boney plates are made of dinner plates
Arguing hypothetical situations is fun the dragon He has goldfish eyeballs though Those things are a major liability
Haven't you guys learned anything from this article?! However you put it in any hypothetical scenario and whatever actually happens there is one thing for sure: the elephant always wins!
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When the leagues are finally unified, no one will a give shit anymore about esf/kespa/whatever. One day...
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 12 2013 19:57 Daswollvieh wrote:
When the leagues are finally unified, no one will a give shit anymore about esf/kespa/whatever. One day...
no, the combined team league initially will be horrible man
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On July 12 2013 19:57 Daswollvieh wrote:
When the leagues are finally unified, no one will a give shit anymore about esf/kespa/whatever. One day...
Maybe a month after the release.
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On July 12 2013 20:06 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 19:57 Daswollvieh wrote:
When the leagues are finally unified, no one will a give shit anymore about esf/kespa/whatever. One day... no, the combined team league initially will be horrible man
Because... duh?
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On July 12 2013 18:01 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
The real 'farce' is that this thread was allowed to flourish initially and that it still remains unlocked after being proven false long ago.
Let me explain. Already in the early days of SC2 there was some friction between the old guard of BW fans and the new blood of SC2 fans flooding the site. "MBS makes the game too easy!" vs "unnecessary clicks don't make a good game" and so on. Basically the elitism of TL in full force.
Enter this article. Wow! Not only is the game I love apparently made for children, but the stars that play it and the games I have watched are apparently illegitimate. It was a kick in the balls after being slapped in the face.
Now the staff of TL made great pains to distance themselves from the claims in the article. They put two disclaimers on the article itself. It's not our opinion they said. However, the fact that such an inflammatory article (even if well written) was allowed to stay alive I think is an implicit agreement to the claims in the article by the mods. If you read enough of TL you can see where their hearts truly lay in regards to BW and SC2. Even today we're constantly informed of the 'old ways' (oh OSL doesn't really start until RO16, PL format is best format etc) and how they're supposedly better.
Now, that's totally ok. It's TL's house and they have free reign to editorialize how they like. But, as someone who arrived when SC2 did, this stance is alienating. What's more, this stance led to this article given a free pass and started the Kespa vs ESF crap that we have to put up with every day now. I'm sure there are some people who had never even given a thought to the possibility of Kespa being naturally superior. But give people something they can hitch their wagon to, that makes them feel superior and they will do so in a second. The editors should have been smarter and seen that coming.
In short:
Instead of framing the BW switch over as a bunch of new awesome players coming over, this article framed it as an us vs them and is one of the main reasons we have the ESF vs Kespa nonsense we have today. It will be remembered as an infamous thread which did big damage to the community. Close it now before it does any more.
Shit he caught us everyone move to gosugamers
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I guess the only reason this thread is still alive is because its pretty hilarious.
there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch . Funny stuff
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On July 12 2013 12:19 figq wrote:
Sadly, now we have a reversed elephant - Flash, Jaedong and Bisu play SC2 and most likely if they went to compete with Sea, Killer and Movie in SSL, they'd smash them hard. Still, I enjoy the level of BW in SSL, it's actually pretty solid.
you think so? i think that Flash Jaedong etc haven't been training for 1 year, they wouldnt win in a current SSL. Sea and Killer havent been exactly weak players either before sc2.
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On July 12 2013 20:45 Snusmumriken wrote:I guess the only reason this thread is still alive is because its pretty hilarious. Show nested quote +there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch . Funny stuff
I think basically the whole Elephant argument was just WAY overstated, as shown in the quote above. They had a point, that Kespa guys were going to come over and up the game a bit (which they did - INoVation, Flash, Rain and so on are pretty good players), but, as I suspected, the level of domination (and speed) wasn't even close to what the original thread said.
I actually thought it was kinda rude to, calling all the current pro's crap and saying the Kespa guys practice WAY more. I do think that maybe the Kespa practice schedules are maybe slightly superior to esf practice... but the esf guys practice a ridiculous amount of time too, and it's just rude to go on about how the current pro's are bad and a bunch of guys that are good at a different game are going to come over and dominate them... But yea, whatever. :p
(I do think the Kespa vs Esf is fun though XD )
Edit: Come to think of it, this has probably been said a million times before (so many pages). Maybe it's time this thread was closed no?
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Bisutopia19234 Posts
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 12 2013 22:00 BisuDagger wrote:
If only you posters on this page had access the "TL+ The Elephant in the Room" article where the discussion gets really good and many dark secrets are revealed about staff and players. But judging by the quality of posting here, it seems like you guys will need to put a lot more effort in if you want someone to gift you some TL+ time.
TL+ has all the secrets.
Confirmed by lichter, the Kespa secrets revealer dude
Oh wait I do my revealing on TL+, my bad
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The real elephant is the fact that all but one of those Terran players mentioned in the OP are still around doing fine, while all but one of the Protoss players in the OP is no where to be seen. And that one, MC, has been in a major slump.
When is Blizzard going to fix Protoss? Or do they think the inability to out micro, out multi-task, or out macro as Protoss against other races is somehow OK because hidden all-ins balance winrates? Or does Blizzard just think that it's good enough if Terran and Zerg, now even foreign Zergs, winning everything is fine and balanced "just like in BW".
Our recent Protoss champions Parting, First, and Hero look great against slightly subpar opponents, but crumble against top opponents. Protoss is still the red headed stepchild. With unbeatable builds using swarmhosts late game vs. P, they have no chance in a true macro game PvZ. And with Terran's utter midgame dominance, Protoss get picked apart left and right.
The only way to get far in tournaments as P is to take a lot of risks, and while ANY race can and does win tournaments by taking big risks and getting lucky, Protoss is always the race that can't be consistent by trying to play a solid style.
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On July 12 2013 16:07 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 15:41 docvoc wrote:On July 12 2013 15:33 lichter wrote:On July 12 2013 15:26 Shellshock1122 wrote:On July 12 2013 15:26 Dodgin wrote:
It's probably about how good Polt would be at LoL The real 2nd elephant in the room article. MOBAs We're gonna need more animals with SC2, HoN, Dota2 players going into LoL for the moneys Or at least have them not move back/retire after failing to start a career in LoL (Looking at you Coca and Inori) it was coca and Puzzle.
I remember inori also going to try his luck out with LoL after he retired from sc2, then realized how different a skillset he would need to play the game, maybe I'm just mis-remembering.
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the writers of this article had good basis at the time for their argument...however they grossly underestimated Terrible Terrible Damage and a terrible stagnant metagame, and overestimated how far mechanical skill can carry you in Sc2.
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On July 12 2013 21:38 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 12:19 figq wrote:
Sadly, now we have a reversed elephant - Flash, Jaedong and Bisu play SC2 and most likely if they went to compete with Sea, Killer and Movie in SSL, they'd smash them hard. Still, I enjoy the level of BW in SSL, it's actually pretty solid. you think so? i think that Flash Jaedong etc haven't been training for 1 year, they wouldnt win in a current SSL. Sea and Killer havent been exactly weak players either before sc2.
Oh yes, for sure, they will need a couple of months training to get back to their real BW skill. But I bet it's not lost forever.
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EPT
