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On June 17 2012 11:14 SCMatterhorn wrote:
Is it awkward now that StarCraft II has developed further and this article is only slightly relevant because of the skill disparity between the BW and WoL players? They are practicing two games for a short time, so it doesnt really mean much til the full switch is done. Plus some of them dont seem to want to play, such as stork which means they are being forced to play, how well do you think these sorts of players will do? As DRG said, 2 months of only sc2 for the bw players to become good and 6 months if they are playing bw and sc2 side by side.
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I don't think the Kespa players can become relevant before Heart of the Swarm comes out, but at least that will help them catch up. It really takes a long time of practicing to become good, I mean, take people like Parting and Symbol who have only risen to fame in the last six months when they have been playing for far longer. Even for Flash I would imagine it would take six months of pure SC2 to catch up, let alone dominate. With him still playing in the OSL and the hybrid pro-league I just don't see it happening so fast.
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SC2 COMPETITION IS A FARCE
The opinions expressed by this post do not necessarily reflect the official position of myself or myself.
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Well, after the Korean Qualifiers it looks like this was wrong.
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On July 23 2012 04:05 koecim wrote:
Well, after the Korean Qualifiers it looks like this was wrong.
...you can't be serious?
Several KeSPA players made the finals of their groups. Light beat Jjakji 2-1. Almost all of these guys are playing at a level at least Code A after playing the game for less than six months, while still practicing Brood War at the exact same time. Even the GSL players have come out and said that the hybrid format is BS, and it's very obviously holding them back in both games.
If anything, this helps support the article rather than rebutts it.
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On July 23 2012 17:32 ShiroKaisen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 04:05 koecim wrote:
Well, after the Korean Qualifiers it looks like this was wrong. ...you can't be serious? Several KeSPA players made the finals of their groups. Light beat Jjakji 2-1. Almost all of these guys are playing at a level at least Code A after playing the game for less than six months, while still practicing Brood War at the exact same time. Even the GSL players have come out and said that the hybrid format is BS, and it's very obviously holding them back in both games. If anything, this helps support the article rather than rebutts it.
Not really. You're essentially saying that the BroodWar players weren't completely and utterly dominated by the Starcraft 2 players (merely beaten hard), and gave a couple reasons for it. The article claimed that sc2 players would be utterly dominated by the BroodWar players. The fact you have to make excuses for the BroodWar players shows how far from the article's scenario we are.
Compare what you said with the actual article:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.
So far, the BroodWar pros have been practicing for a few months, and while they have the handicap of the dual tournament format, the results were seeing aren't even anywhere close to suggesting that 300 pros will come in and 'dominate SC2 at any moment', or that we'd have a few that 'CRUSH' the sc2 pros. With a body of 300 to choose from and with a few months of practice already, you'd expect at least a handful of outliers to start to do something that might suggest the forthcoming dominating and crushing that the article was telling us about.
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wow reality 2-0 over Symbol
I think the foreign scene is done..
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On July 23 2012 18:25 Aim Here wrote:
stuff
Obviously the language used in the article is very strong. "From the day they switched" is absurd and the idea that all 300 KeSPA players would be better than even the likes of Mvp etc. is simply untrue.
The spirit of the article though is still pretty true. The idea that the KeSPA practice system and the best KeSPA players would be able to very quickly reach the top of StarCraft II is only being supported by this event. Reality 2-0 Symbol. Light 2-1 Jjakji. Snow 2-0 Nestea. These aren't coincidences.
And it's not "making excuses" for them to blame the Hybrid League on the sluggish transition. The players in KeSPA have always prioritized Proleague over individual leagues, and in order to win Proleague you have to be a professional quality Brood War player. Being a professional quality player in two different games is not just a tall order, it's an impossible one. It's a testament to just how incredible these gamers are that they're doing this well at all. JangBi is poised to become the champion of the OSL, the most difficult tournament in all of Starcraft and possibly all of eSports, and he STILL made the semifinals of his group and lost to ANOTHER KESPA PLAYER.
This article wasn't written to crap all over the GSL players. It used strong, hyperbolic language to put forth the point that the KeSPA progaming system is simply on another level from the practice environment in Star2 up til now, and that some of the most talented RTS players in the world are about to start playing this game and that they WILL be top-tier at it. So will Mvp, MKP, DRG, MC, etc. But KeSPA is coming. The fact that only one KeSPA player qualified for WCS isn't the point. The point is just how well they did behind that.
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On July 24 2012 01:32 ShiroKaisen wrote:Obviously the language used in the article is very strong. "From the day they switched" is absurd and the idea that all 300 KeSPA players would be better than even the likes of Mvp etc. is simply untrue. The spirit of the article though is still pretty true. The idea that the KeSPA practice system and the best KeSPA players would be able to very quickly reach the top of StarCraft II is only being supported by this event. Reality 2-0 Symbol. Light 2-1 Jjakji. Snow 2-0 Nestea. These aren't coincidences. And it's not "making excuses" for them to blame the Hybrid League on the sluggish transition. The players in KeSPA have always prioritized Proleague over individual leagues, and in order to win Proleague you have to be a professional quality Brood War player. Being a professional quality player in two different games is not just a tall order, it's an impossible one. It's a testament to just how incredible these gamers are that they're doing this well at all. JangBi is poised to become the champion of the OSL, the most difficult tournament in all of Starcraft and possibly all of eSports, and he STILL made the semifinals of his group and lost to ANOTHER KESPA PLAYER. This article wasn't written to crap all over the GSL players. It used strong, hyperbolic language to put forth the point that the KeSPA progaming system is simply on another level from the practice environment in Star2 up til now, and that some of the most talented RTS players in the world are about to start playing this game and that they WILL be top-tier at it. So will Mvp, MKP, DRG, MC, etc. But KeSPA is coming. The fact that only one KeSPA player qualified for WCS isn't the point. The point is just how well they did behind that.
Lol 3 games out of the hundreds won by GSL players=irrelevant. They just had a bad day..
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On July 24 2012 01:32 ShiroKaisen wrote:Obviously the language used in the article is very strong. "From the day they switched" is absurd and the idea that all 300 KeSPA players would be better than even the likes of Mvp etc. is simply untrue. The spirit of the article though is still pretty true. The idea that the KeSPA practice system and the best KeSPA players would be able to very quickly reach the top of StarCraft II is only being supported by this event. Reality 2-0 Symbol. Light 2-1 Jjakji. Snow 2-0 Nestea. These aren't coincidences. And it's not "making excuses" for them to blame the Hybrid League on the sluggish transition. The players in KeSPA have always prioritized Proleague over individual leagues, and in order to win Proleague you have to be a professional quality Brood War player. Being a professional quality player in two different games is not just a tall order, it's an impossible one. It's a testament to just how incredible these gamers are that they're doing this well at all. JangBi is poised to become the champion of the OSL, the most difficult tournament in all of Starcraft and possibly all of eSports, and he STILL made the semifinals of his group and lost to ANOTHER KESPA PLAYER. This article wasn't written to crap all over the GSL players. It used strong, hyperbolic language to put forth the point that the KeSPA progaming system is simply on another level from the practice environment in Star2 up til now, and that some of the most talented RTS players in the world are about to start playing this game and that they WILL be top-tier at it. So will Mvp, MKP, DRG, MC, etc. But KeSPA is coming. The fact that only one KeSPA player qualified for WCS isn't the point. The point is just how well they did behind that.
You're still moving the goalposts away from the article's language now. The article doesn't merely say that some players will be top-tier once they switch over - I don't think anyone's disputing that. The article is saying that KeSPA players will dominate once they show up, and all you can justify it with is cherrypicking two or three good bo3 results. It's a bit like saying that Foreigners were going to dominate Korean Starcraft based on the results of the GSL third open prelims in 2010, when not one but five foreigners qualified. They each won a whole bunch of bo3s, as did the foreigners who failed to qualify.
Being a professional quality player in two different games is not just a tall order, it's an impossible one.
Really? Elky was an OSL semifinalist and an OGN Warcraft 3 finalist in the same year. Moon won a $10k WC3 tourney and came 2nd in an IEM and a Dreamhack last year. And outside RTS, you have the likes of Fatal1ty who was beating everyone at a bunch of different FPSes in succession, and Daigo Umehara, who used to regularly place in the finals of multiple different fighting games in top notch Fighting-game tourneys like Evo. It might be unusual to be a great player in multiple games, but it's certainly not impossible or unprecedented.
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i don't see how the debate should end.. give them time. time, in which they play SC2 fulltime. i'm sure they will outclass the current top players. hell even now they can beat mid-tier GSL players.
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Hyun... BW A-teamer destined to dominate the SC2 scene... maybe the OP meant destined to dominate the foreign SC2 scene lol? Even then, he couldn't even beat a foreigner...
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Alive the poacher in the elephant safari!
And I think it's a farce that ex BW-pros have to play against SC2 players
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Still after all this time, I can't believe Teamliquid staff not only allowed but featured this piss-poor article. Maybe it shouldn't surprise me, Teamliquid does still after all have this "ESPORTS" thing self-mockery going on for some reason.
Anyhow, I guess this thing at least got sent to its own little dark corner now. Should be deleted entirely for its stupidity.
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The first thing we can say, even if it was obvious to the non BW fanboys is that the competition has not been a farce...
Some exBW pros will most likely be championship winners in the future and lots of them will be top players and will increase the competition level but the majority of them won't dominate the current scene as it was implied. The thing that could help them would be the lack of fresh blood because of the lack of popularity of sc2 in Korea. We will see
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Hey, the Elephant, what's up?
I just finished re-reading this article, remembering how much that "master E-Sport race" theory upset me at the time.
I was not dissapointed. I love how that Intrigue guy is on his way to become the most joked farce around here.
This article was irrelevant and stupid then, it turns out -just- stupid now.
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please delete this article, false advertising at its finest. the top bw pros cant even win anything, let alone 300 would dominate.
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Well, well, well...
Isnt this all very silly now.
(btw just because I posted that doesn't mean it's my opinion)
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EPT
