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On January 13 2012 23:56 Assirra wrote:
Oh and if we play by your own logic you cannot prove that the best BW pro's dominate SC2 since they are still playing BW. That's not my logic, but the logic that will be used on every iteration of BW transfers to SC2, that's why I didn't say "the best" this time. Also, certainly there will be more and more young players (in both games) that may defeat anyone in their respective game, and the discussion will be open which ones would be better if they played the same game.
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On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way.
But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that. 
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On January 14 2012 00:23 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that.
Considering a lot of the names that are doing well right now had a history with BW and either went no where fast or were mediocre at best given the time of their switch. No. They had their chance and chose to switch. Some of them have been playing BW for a while. It's bloody unlikely that players would switch from SC2 to BW, so in theory. Fat chance.
If a really young player did decide to switch. Then we have no idea how good he'd be. He could be really, really good or not have a snowball's chance in hell. No point arguing that. I'll say this though, there are very and I mean very few guys like Kolll out in the world. It can take a really long time for players to get good because the rulesets are different and the competition at the highest level is ridiculous. Many players tried; many have failed. Furthermore, you have to get a pro license first and that's one of the hardest things to do of all. Not as many teams anymore either.
Once again it's a nonsensical argument because its fiction. No point on saying, "well, if this and this happened.."
We have to stick to the facts that we have and the climates are very different.
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On January 14 2012 00:31 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 00:23 hunts wrote:On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that. Considering a lot of the names that are doing well right now had a history with BW and either went no where fast or were mediocre at best given the time of their switch. No. They had their chance and chose to switch. Some of them have been playing BW for a while. It's bloody unlikely that players would switch from SC2 to BW, so in theory. Fat chance. If by chance some really young player who had never played BW did decide to try their hand at going pro after starting with SC2. Then we have no idea how good he'd be. He could be really, really good or not have a snowball's chance in hell. No point arguing that. Once again it's a nonsensical argument because its fiction. No point on saying, "well, if this and this happened.." We have to stick to the facts that we have.
But now you see how silly that argument is, going both ways. And honestly, same goes for Bw players switching over. You have forgg who was supposed to be so good and was hyped by everyone to be amazing and the best bw player to switch to sc2, until he lost. He got absolutely curb stomped by leenock who I believe was an amateur in BW, and MC who all the BW fanatics say was so awful in BW and is proof of why SC2 is a farce.
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On January 14 2012 00:37 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 00:31 StarStruck wrote:On January 14 2012 00:23 hunts wrote:On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that. Considering a lot of the names that are doing well right now had a history with BW and either went no where fast or were mediocre at best given the time of their switch. No. They had their chance and chose to switch. Some of them have been playing BW for a while. It's bloody unlikely that players would switch from SC2 to BW, so in theory. Fat chance. If by chance some really young player who had never played BW did decide to try their hand at going pro after starting with SC2. Then we have no idea how good he'd be. He could be really, really good or not have a snowball's chance in hell. No point arguing that. Once again it's a nonsensical argument because its fiction. No point on saying, "well, if this and this happened.." We have to stick to the facts that we have. But now you see how silly that argument is, going both ways. And honestly, same goes for Bw players switching over. You have forgg who was supposed to be so good and was hyped by everyone to be amazing and the best bw player to switch to sc2, until he lost. He got absolutely curb stomped by leenock who I believe was an amateur in BW, and MC who all the BW fanatics say was so awful in BW and is proof of why SC2 is a farce.
No because its similar skillsets and we have tangible evidence. Like I said the climates are very different. BW culture is very strict and a lot of the top players in the SC2 scene today WERE BW pro's! There is a correlation between the skill sets. As I've said time and time again in all my posts. Tired of repeating myself. You can do a search if you want to see what I've already said because at this point it's getting old.
When forgg switched he was not soo good. See what I said about mediocrity. He's a veteran and he has proved himself in the past. Once again, you are talking about a group of death. MC and Leenock have proved they have what it takes to win games in SC2. I'm not surprised those two manage to qualify for the next round. I knew it would be within a hair for MC to continue and it was.
On that note, becoming a BW pro is much harder than becoming a SC2 pro and there are a number of reasons for this. Don't believe me? Ask any pro gamer playing SC2. One of the biggest being you actually have to qualify for pro gamer status or receive one of two licenses a team is allowed to give out (see IdrA) annually.
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On January 14 2012 00:37 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 00:31 StarStruck wrote:On January 14 2012 00:23 hunts wrote:On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that. Considering a lot of the names that are doing well right now had a history with BW and either went no where fast or were mediocre at best given the time of their switch. No. They had their chance and chose to switch. Some of them have been playing BW for a while. It's bloody unlikely that players would switch from SC2 to BW, so in theory. Fat chance. If by chance some really young player who had never played BW did decide to try their hand at going pro after starting with SC2. Then we have no idea how good he'd be. He could be really, really good or not have a snowball's chance in hell. No point arguing that. Once again it's a nonsensical argument because its fiction. No point on saying, "well, if this and this happened.." We have to stick to the facts that we have. But now you see how silly that argument is, going both ways. And honestly, same goes for Bw players switching over. You have forgg who was supposed to be so good and was hyped by everyone to be amazing and the best bw player to switch to sc2, until he lost. He got absolutely curb stomped by leenock who I believe was an amateur in BW, and MC who all the BW fanatics say was so awful in BW and is proof of why SC2 is a farce.
The comparison of BW->SC2 and SC2->BW is rather laughable. Although we'll never see it happen, it's still painfully obvious that anyone who tries to convert from SC2 to BW right now will get stomped for all eternity.
SC2 is an easier and newer game, which means that it's easier to get to the top of the competition. If a Brood War player switches to SC2, on average they'll do very well, even if they may not win a GSL. Getting to Code S is still difficult and the fact that most former BW pros have been able to achieve it shows that their skills cross over quite well (ForGG, July, Nada, Boxer, MC, MVP, Nestea, etc.).
BW is a harder and much older game, where you're competing against people who have trained in it for 10 years. Even if every single SC2 player switched over to BW right now and trained for a year, none of them would achieve Ro16 in the OSL.
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BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level.
SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play.
Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard.
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On January 14 2012 11:38 StarscreamG1 wrote:
BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level.
SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play.
Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard.
Elephant in the room indeed , you are just denying the fact that bw at a professional level stump sc2 competitive level , Let's say if your top sc2 players were to switch to Bw and try to take on flash in a bo5. It will be so one sided , it will even make pokju retire again for the second time .
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On January 14 2012 00:23 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that.
you are either a massive troll or mentally challenged. there are literally thousands of semipros that train fulltime in korea that aren't even good enough to pass the professional license tournament.
and considering that the entire korean starcraft 2 scene is composed of those semipros who gave up because it was too hard or b-teamers who quit because it was too hard, i don't think your statement holds water.
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On January 14 2012 11:38 StarscreamG1 wrote:
BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level.
SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play.
Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard.
Even if BW is not harder to play than SC2, it would still be harder for a player to reach a competitive level, simply because people have played it for much longer. This is pretty much inarguable.
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This article makes me wonder why people like Nada and July are not doing that well in starcraft 2...
considering they were the top of the top in BW.
Citing this, I would say that a top career in BW does not always translate to certain success in SC2.
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On January 14 2012 12:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
This article makes me wonder why people like Nada and July are not doing that well in starcraft 2...
considering they were the top of the top in BW.
Citing this, I would say that a top career in BW does not always translate to certain success in SC2.
i didnt follow BW but from what i heard i thought Nada and July were not at the top of BW when sc2 came out
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wild claim appears! it uses no evidence!
It's not very effective...
I roll my eyes every time this thread resurfaces, because so far every posterboy for this way of thinking gets roflstomped when they hit code S.
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On January 14 2012 11:44 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 11:38 StarscreamG1 wrote:
BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level.
SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play.
Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard. Elephant in the room indeed , you are just denying the fact that bw at a professional level stump sc2 competitive level , Let's say if your top sc2 players were to switch to Bw and try to take on flash in a bo5. It will be so one sided , it will even make pokju retire again for the second time .
wow what a sick post i never realized that, sc2 is so fucking easy it's so clear now
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On January 14 2012 12:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
This article makes me wonder why people like Nada and July are not doing that well in starcraft 2...
considering they were the top of the top in BW.
Citing this, I would say that a top career in BW does not always translate to certain success in SC2.
They weren't doing very well by the end of their BW career. They were top in terms of overall career rating, not monthly kespa rating. If you can't grasp this, I'm gonna assume you do not understand why Boxer is such a hype either.
Even if we are talking about Nada or July, it is safe to say top career in BW does translate to certain success in SC2. Nada and July were in Code S for a long time, which is a great accomplishment.
ForGG played great for his first GSL, especially if you consider how late he joined the party (actual team and GSL experience). Looking at foreigners trying to go through code A and S, that was a successful run for him.
No matter where you look in SC2, you see BW. I cannot imagine how you came to your conclusion.
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On January 14 2012 11:44 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 11:38 StarscreamG1 wrote:
BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level.
SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play.
Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard. Elephant in the room indeed , you are just denying the fact that bw at a professional level stump sc2 competitive level , Let's say if your top sc2 players were to switch to Bw and try to take on flash in a bo5. It will be so one sided , it will even make pokju retire again for the second time .
Gee, never would've guessed that the competition is harder and more refined when the pro scene has been around for over 10 years.
Have Flash play a BO5 against MVP in SC2, guarantee you he will get stomped. Does that mean a goddamn thing? Nope.
This post is just so random I can't believe it.
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On January 14 2012 11:44 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 00:23 hunts wrote:On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that. you are either a massive troll or mentally challenged. there are literally thousands of semipros that train fulltime in korea that aren't even good enough to pass the professional license tournament. and considering that the entire korean starcraft 2 scene is composed of those semipros who gave up because it was too hard or b-teamers who quit because it was too hard, i don't think your statement holds water.
Eh? That's a gross misrepresentation of the Korean SC2 scene. It has former MSL and OSL champions, it has players who qualified for these top BW tournaments, either earlier in their career or as recent as just before their switch to SC2. It also has BW b-teamers and semi-pros. It has former top WC3 pros/champions. The list goes on.
It's also absurd that you put words in peoples' mouths and say they only switched because BW was "too hard" to play. Though there are numerous stated reasons for why Korean BW pros switched/are switching, the most prevalent reason in 2010/2011 was because SC2 is a new game, and like anything where you're able to get in early, it was seen to be a golden opportunity for people to make a name for themselves before the talent pool really started flooding in.
When you look at guys like IMMVP, it's a no-brainer. The guy was making it into MSL Ro8 back in 2010 and facing off against Flash, and suddenly SC2 comes out. Do you stick with BW and have to compete against the likes of Flash and Jaedong for a tournament title, or do you transition early and gain an early foothold to be one of the leaders in this new scene?
fOrGG is another one who was qualifying for these same 2010 MSLs as MVP, and even had a better overall record. He sure seemed to have a difficult time in his GSL Code S matches earlier in the week.
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I think the fundamental problem with this argument and the many like it is that the BW fans show a remarkable lack of respect for the game which is basically their grandson.
For the most part SC2 players on this forum tread around like BW was the holy grail of gaming, having played Blizzard games since Warcraft I loved SC1 and BW as much as alot of us. However, the problem is that there is a erroneous assumption that BW's extreme demands in the mechanics and micromanagement aspect of the game will automatically lead BW pros to the top of our scene. While yes, this does make a solid grounding in how good a player is, I think people miss out on the fact that BW needed these high mechanics because it was SO unbelievably unforgiving, difficult to manage and clunky. Yes having the ability to nearly instantly move 3 SCVS from CC to minerals was all well and good in BW, but does that skill REALLY translate when you now have automining? You no longer need to use screen save and spam 15 hotkeys just to change the rally point of 5 factories. And in response to those who say this makes SC2 "easy mode", do you really want to watch a game where players can win by pure mechanical advantage.(which alot of BW games are decided on, why do you think the top dogs stay on top for so long? because they have a unique amount of speed that no one else has). It's the equivalent of MKP going mass marines against Zergs early in SC2 history, where they had the perfect counters but literally could not keep up with the micro and macro.
SC2 still has yet to see a "perfect" game, there is still quite a workload to make mechanics important, the difference is that instead of players having to fly back to their base to macro, the "easier" system is freeing up APM and is allowing them to use it to do things that are actually interesting, like multitasking attacks and combat micro etc..pro players still slip in macro and micro on a regular basis, maybe not huge slips but nonetheless it does happen. There is no skill ceiling to bash your head against. This has the added consequence of making the game more about build orders, unit comps, micro and strategy/tactics, which all in all is a good thing.
And to finish it off, YES this huge mechanical ability will push the utter top of BW players in the sense that they will probably show us some crazy games, but you cant deny that this will be because guys like JD, Flash etc. have impeccable decision making, which once they figure out SC2 and how it works, will be able to use it to great effect. To say that any of the current BW pros will dominate simply because BW is harder and apparently more dedicated? No way.
Saying that, I will say that if the KeSPa teams switch with their management intact, they will grow to be good teams. But their is a difference between success and domination. I would love to see SKT1 in SC2!
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On January 14 2012 00:23 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 22:54 Keone wrote:On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote:
Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. But until an Sc2 player switches over to Bw you have no way of proving that. I'm actually quite sure SC2 has at least 300 pros and semi pros that could at any given moment switch over to BW ad within a span of a couple months absolutely dominate the scene, and until they try to, you can't disprove that.
doesn't mean you can prove it.. your logic is circular therefore useless and not an argument.. its like debating religion..
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I agree with this mostly, but I still argue that top brood war players that are better then immvp will not consistently beat immvp or many other starcraft 2 players. They could practice 14 hours a day for years and still lose games to stephano or some random player like sase or machine. The game has balance problems but they are more deep rooted and complicated then just looking at some stats and saying every race is at about 50 percent wins.
Some battles end game end up being a joke. I mean brood lords, infestors, corrupters basically counters every unit terran makes except for 1 other broken unit called the ghost but 1 fungal growth or a couple since you cant move after the first one kills all the ghosts and zerg wins. Its just not well designed. Nothing in brood war is that broken and stupid all the battles come down to skill from both players and that what made that game so good.
I would love to see flash end game TvZ facing a max zerg army of infestor,brood lord, and corruptor. If he does not have enough ghosts or gets them killed by fungal growths guess what flash loses no amount of skill changes that battle around except not losing all the ghosts. Its stupid just by design because blizzard never felt like making big changes.
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EPT
