On January 14 2012 11:38 StarscreamG1 wrote: BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level. SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play. Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard.
Elephant in the room indeed , you are just denying the fact that bw at a professional level stump sc2 competitive level , Let's say if your top sc2 players were to switch to Bw and try to take on flash in a bo5. It will be so one sided , it will even make pokju retire again for the second time .
Can Flash switch to WC3 and win bo5 against Moon or Grubby?
On January 14 2012 14:20 snakeeyez wrote: I agree with this mostly, but I still argue that top brood war players that are better then immvp will not consistently beat immvp or many other starcraft 2 players. They could practice 14 hours a day for years and still lose games to stephano or some random player like sase or machine. The game has balance problems but they are more deep rooted and complicated then just looking at some stats and saying every race is at about 50 percent wins. Some battles end game end up being a joke. I mean brood lords, infestors, corrupters basically counters every unit terran makes except for 1 other broken unit called the ghost but 1 fungal growth or a couple since you cant move after the first one kills all the ghosts and zerg wins. Its just not well designed. Nothing in brood war is that broken and stupid all the battles come down to skill from both players and that what made that game so good. I would love to see flash end game TvZ facing a max zerg army of infestor,brood lord, and corruptor. If he does not have enough ghosts or gets them killed by fungal growths guess what flash loses no amount of skill changes that battle around except not losing all the ghosts. Its stupid just by design because blizzard never felt like making big changes.
maybe not after 10 years of patching, but when starcraft originally came out? i would definately bet there were balance issues. i think geneside hit the nail on the head a few posts up
On January 14 2012 14:20 snakeeyez wrote: I agree with this mostly, but I still argue that top brood war players that are better then immvp will not consistently beat immvp or many other starcraft 2 players. They could practice 14 hours a day for years and still lose games to stephano or some random player like sase or machine. The game has balance problems but they are more deep rooted and complicated then just looking at some stats and saying every race is at about 50 percent wins. Some battles end game end up being a joke. I mean brood lords, infestors, corrupters basically counters every unit terran makes except for 1 other broken unit called the ghost but 1 fungal growth or a couple since you cant move after the first one kills all the ghosts and zerg wins. Its just not well designed. Nothing in brood war is that broken and stupid all the battles come down to skill from both players and that what made that game so good. I would love to see flash end game TvZ facing a max zerg army of infestor,brood lord, and corruptor. If he does not have enough ghosts or gets them killed by fungal growths guess what flash loses no amount of skill changes that battle around except not losing all the ghosts. Its stupid just by design because blizzard never felt like making big changes.
maybe not after 10 years of patching, but when starcraft originally came out? i would definately bet there were balance issues. i think geneside hit the nail on the head a few posts up
THere wasn't 10 years of patching
last balance patch was 1.08 and that came in like 2002
On January 14 2012 14:20 snakeeyez wrote: I agree with this mostly, but I still argue that top brood war players that are better then immvp will not consistently beat immvp or many other starcraft 2 players. They could practice 14 hours a day for years and still lose games to stephano or some random player like sase or machine. The game has balance problems but they are more deep rooted and complicated then just looking at some stats and saying every race is at about 50 percent wins. Some battles end game end up being a joke. I mean brood lords, infestors, corrupters basically counters every unit terran makes except for 1 other broken unit called the ghost but 1 fungal growth or a couple since you cant move after the first one kills all the ghosts and zerg wins. Its just not well designed. Nothing in brood war is that broken and stupid all the battles come down to skill from both players and that what made that game so good. I would love to see flash end game TvZ facing a max zerg army of infestor,brood lord, and corruptor. If he does not have enough ghosts or gets them killed by fungal growths guess what flash loses no amount of skill changes that battle around except not losing all the ghosts. Its stupid just by design because blizzard never felt like making big changes.
maybe not after 10 years of patching, but when starcraft originally came out? i would definately bet there were balance issues. i think geneside hit the nail on the head a few posts up
THere wasn't 10 years of patching
last balance patch was 1.08 and that came in like 2002
I don't get why everyone who cites that the last BW patch came out in 2001 ignores that the change list on that one patch alone is longer than like every patch that has come out for SC2 yet total... not that I don't like both games, but it seems like such a useless number to cite.
Just running through some like basic counting, in a period between 1998 - 2001 (1.07 in 1999 actually) BW recieved roughly 92 balance changes to gameplay. Between 2010 - 2011 SC2 received 81 tweaks to gameplay. So while BW's patches may have been spread out over a longer time frame, the game was not magically balanced in one patch with 5 changes like everyone loves to think it is. It just means Blizzard is more active in patching issues now instead of waiting two years to fix them. Stop using it to make BW > SC2 arguments. (Numbers just quickly pulled from Liquipedia)
On January 14 2012 11:38 StarscreamG1 wrote: BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level. SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play. Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard.
Elephant in the room indeed , you are just denying the fact that bw at a professional level stump sc2 competitive level , Let's say if your top sc2 players were to switch to Bw and try to take on flash in a bo5. It will be so one sided , it will even make pokju retire again for the second time .
Can Flash switch to WC3 and win bo5 against Moon or Grubby?
Can Moon or Grubby even take a single game from flash in bo5 in broodwar ?? This is going no where .
On January 15 2012 04:22 BritWrangler wrote: The OP has already been proven to be true. ALL of the top sc2 players played BW professionally.
You didn't read the OP did you? It stated that the competition in SC2 is a farce because all the ex BW players that are at the top of SC2 were bad in BW and that the people who were better than them in BW could come to SC2 and dominate within a month of switching. And if anything it has been proven false but the BW fanboys keep claiming "nope the guy that switched over that we hyped is actually bad and we don't like him anymore, wait until the next guy"
On January 15 2012 04:22 BritWrangler wrote: The OP has already been proven to be true. ALL of the top sc2 players played BW professionally.
You didn't read the OP did you? It stated that the competition in SC2 is a farce because all the ex BW players that are at the top of SC2 were bad in BW and that the people who were better than them in BW could come to SC2 and dominate within a month of switching. And if anything it has been proven false but the BW fanboys keep claiming "nope the guy that switched over that we hyped is actually bad and we don't like him anymore, wait until the next guy"
I think the issue is really all the hype. Will the top BW players have an edge mechanics wise on most of the SC2 pros? yes. Will it make them unstoppable juggernauts of doom? Probably not. Will it make them very good at SC2? Yes.
On January 14 2012 11:38 StarscreamG1 wrote: BW is not harder than SC2 at competitive level. SC2 is much harder to master, cause it's easier to play. Stop those kind of posts. They are both hard.
Elephant in the room indeed , you are just denying the fact that bw at a professional level stump sc2 competitive level , Let's say if your top sc2 players were to switch to Bw and try to take on flash in a bo5. It will be so one sided , it will even make pokju retire again for the second time .
Can Flash switch to WC3 and win bo5 against Moon or Grubby?
Can Moon or Grubby even take a single game from flash in bo5 in broodwar ?? This is going no where .
i believe he is trying to say that the games arent different. flash not winning against moon or grubby in wc3 doesnt mean he isnt up to their level, because they cannot take games off him in bw.
so until we actually see results, this whole debate is a farce. excuses for forgg is just feeding the trolls more, lets just sit back and wait for when it actually happens.
On January 14 2012 14:20 snakeeyez wrote: I agree with this mostly, but I still argue that top brood war players that are better then immvp will not consistently beat immvp or many other starcraft 2 players. They could practice 14 hours a day for years and still lose games to stephano or some random player like sase or machine. The game has balance problems but they are more deep rooted and complicated then just looking at some stats and saying every race is at about 50 percent wins. Some battles end game end up being a joke. I mean brood lords, infestors, corrupters basically counters every unit terran makes except for 1 other broken unit called the ghost but 1 fungal growth or a couple since you cant move after the first one kills all the ghosts and zerg wins. Its just not well designed. Nothing in brood war is that broken and stupid all the battles come down to skill from both players and that what made that game so good. I would love to see flash end game TvZ facing a max zerg army of infestor,brood lord, and corruptor. If he does not have enough ghosts or gets them killed by fungal growths guess what flash loses no amount of skill changes that battle around except not losing all the ghosts. Its stupid just by design because blizzard never felt like making big changes.
maybe not after 10 years of patching, but when starcraft originally came out? i would definately bet there were balance issues. i think geneside hit the nail on the head a few posts up
THere wasn't 10 years of patching
last balance patch was 1.08 and that came in like 2002
Watch this video to see how imba SC1 was in its time.
I would say that on retail release SC2 was INCREDIBLY balanced compared to its predecessors release. That video brings back terrifying memories from my childhood of trying to hold off ling rushes...I remember the first time I walled off correctly it was like a breath of fresh air.
Now we have SC1 to thank for that balance that we had(which wasnt great but be honest it wasnt bad, it wasnt completely broken in any way, shape, or form).
On January 15 2012 04:22 BritWrangler wrote: The OP has already been proven to be true. ALL of the top sc2 players played BW professionally.
You didn't read the OP did you? It stated that the competition in SC2 is a farce because all the ex BW players that are at the top of SC2 were bad in BW and that the people who were better than them in BW could come to SC2 and dominate within a month of switching. And if anything it has been proven false but the BW fanboys keep claiming "nope the guy that switched over that we hyped is actually bad and we don't like him anymore, wait until the next guy"
Hasn't been proven false at all since none of the titans have switched. No-one is denying fOrGG or HyuN were pretty good players but they arent on the level of Flash, JD (not at his best of late T_T), Hydra, Fantasy etc
Agree 100% honestly if some one disagrees I feel like they didn't watch much BW. That said, thus far I feel as though BW is just a better game. I have been watching and playing alot of SC2 but when proleage was on the other night i remembered how much more fun it was to watch BW games with action all over the map and not just death balls smashing together.
My opinion: replace the colossus, get rid of concussive shells and make so warp gates take longer to recharge and shorten the time on units created from a non warpgate gateway.
On January 15 2012 05:51 Polygamy wrote: Agree 100% honestly if some one disagrees I feel like they didn't watch much BW. That said, thus far I feel as though BW is just a better game. I have been watching and playing alot of SC2 but when proleage was on the other night i remembered how much more fun it was to watch BW games with action all over the map and not just death balls smashing together.
My opinion: replace the colossus, get rid of concussive shells and make so warp gates take longer to recharge and shorten the time on units created from a non warpgate gateway.
i'd say deathball syndrome is more due to the fact that now we can select a full 200/200 army with one box, and not due to specific units like collosi/marauders
On January 15 2012 04:22 BritWrangler wrote: The OP has already been proven to be true. ALL of the top sc2 players played BW professionally.
You didn't read the OP did you? It stated that the competition in SC2 is a farce because all the ex BW players that are at the top of SC2 were bad in BW and that the people who were better than them in BW could come to SC2 and dominate within a month of switching. And if anything it has been proven false but the BW fanboys keep claiming "nope the guy that switched over that we hyped is actually bad and we don't like him anymore, wait until the next guy"
Hasn't been proven false at all since none of the titans have switched. No-one is denying fOrGG or HyuN were pretty good players but they arent on the level of Flash, JD (not at his best of late T_T), Hydra, Fantasy etc
The article claims that there is 300 people who can just switch over and start to dominate the SC2 scene, now unless you're trying to say ForGG wasn't in the top 300 BW players then yes this has been disproven. Nobody is claiming that a Code S BW player like Flash, JD or Bisu won't be able to switch over and being a dominant force but the idea that any BW pro can switch over and just start to dominate (which is what the article claims) has been disproven.
On January 14 2012 14:20 snakeeyez wrote: I agree with this mostly, but I still argue that top brood war players that are better then immvp will not consistently beat immvp or many other starcraft 2 players. They could practice 14 hours a day for years and still lose games to stephano or some random player like sase or machine. The game has balance problems but they are more deep rooted and complicated then just looking at some stats and saying every race is at about 50 percent wins. Some battles end game end up being a joke. I mean brood lords, infestors, corrupters basically counters every unit terran makes except for 1 other broken unit called the ghost but 1 fungal growth or a couple since you cant move after the first one kills all the ghosts and zerg wins. Its just not well designed. Nothing in brood war is that broken and stupid all the battles come down to skill from both players and that what made that game so good. I would love to see flash end game TvZ facing a max zerg army of infestor,brood lord, and corruptor. If he does not have enough ghosts or gets them killed by fungal growths guess what flash loses no amount of skill changes that battle around except not losing all the ghosts. Its stupid just by design because blizzard never felt like making big changes.
maybe not after 10 years of patching, but when starcraft originally came out? i would definately bet there were balance issues. i think geneside hit the nail on the head a few posts up
The last balance patch was in 2001... and was essentially over 20 random changes. You could hardly call it a balance patch as it almost seemed to make completely random changes. The thing is that Blizzard didn't care to balance BW very much. Even after that, BW was pretty imbalanced from what old guards from that era have told me. Not completely disgusting game breaking imbalance like Ottoman Turks in Age of Empires 3, but it was bad.
What alleviated a lot of the balance issues, especially for Protoss, sometimes for Zerg, were maps. This was playing a huge role by the time I came around the SC scene back in '06. Things were looking a lot better, but I'd say Terran was still on top. The game was still imbalanced and maps can't fix everything. Terran was just really strong and that's actually the main reason why I played them. I would have gone with Protoss because they have fewer units to control, which is nice when you can only select 12 units at a time, but Protoss just wasn't as great past the D range, where players were actually getting decent. :S Just a couple days ago I read a Bisu interview where he's saying why some of the new maps are just terrible for Protoss. It makes me even gladder I stuck with Terran .
I'd say SC2 is more balanced than BW (especially considering Blizzard is actually trying to balance SC2), BUT BW is better designed. Hopefully we can see better game design with HOTS, but atm it isn't looking too promising. Radical changes are going to be needed in HOTS by the time it's released.
On January 15 2012 04:22 BritWrangler wrote: The OP has already been proven to be true. ALL of the top sc2 players played BW professionally.
You didn't read the OP did you? It stated that the competition in SC2 is a farce because all the ex BW players that are at the top of SC2 were bad in BW and that the people who were better than them in BW could come to SC2 and dominate within a month of switching. And if anything it has been proven false but the BW fanboys keep claiming "nope the guy that switched over that we hyped is actually bad and we don't like him anymore, wait until the next guy"
Hasn't been proven false at all since none of the titans have switched. No-one is denying fOrGG or HyuN were pretty good players but they arent on the level of Flash, JD (not at his best of late T_T), Hydra, Fantasy etc
it has been proven false. No one is saying that flash and Jd wouldn't do well in Sc2. The OP says "there are 300 pros and semi pros in BW that can come in and completely dominate the SC2 scene within a month, at any given moment" Are you saying that forgg and hyun weren't part of the top 300 Bw players then? I agree that players like jaedong or flash would do extremely well, and I would wet my pants with joy if I could see jaedong switch to SC2 and revolutionize the way zerg is played. But the OP is just silly.
On January 15 2012 04:22 BritWrangler wrote: The OP has already been proven to be true. ALL of the top sc2 players played BW professionally.
You didn't read the OP did you? It stated that the competition in SC2 is a farce because all the ex BW players that are at the top of SC2 were bad in BW and that the people who were better than them in BW could come to SC2 and dominate within a month of switching. And if anything it has been proven false but the BW fanboys keep claiming "nope the guy that switched over that we hyped is actually bad and we don't like him anymore, wait until the next guy"
Hasn't been proven false at all since none of the titans have switched. No-one is denying fOrGG or HyuN were pretty good players but they arent on the level of Flash, JD (not at his best of late T_T), Hydra, Fantasy etc
The article claims that there is 300 people who can just switch over and start to dominate the SC2 scene, now unless you're trying to say ForGG wasn't in the top 300 BW players then yes this has been disproven. Nobody is claiming that a Code S BW player like Flash, JD or Bisu won't be able to switch over and being a dominant force but the idea that any BW pro can switch over and just start to dominate (which is what the article claims) has been disproven.
ForGG swept through Code A and lost to a repeat GSL champ and last month's finalist. This is the entirety of your sample size. I'd still say he has it in him to dominate. Will he dominate the best of the best? Not at the moment, but watching his games, he was easily on the same level despite having played for far less time. It's also worth noting that ForGG and MC were on the same team, so they would know each other's strategies better than others.
EPT
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