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Trizz
Netherlands1318 Posts
ForGG was not a top tier player which this article is all about. When (if) Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Hydra or Stork switch and they fail to have decent results in Code S then you have the permission to "bash" this thread. Don't pick players like ForGG or Hyun, while they were certainly good, definitely not S-Class. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On January 12 2012 22:35 Trizz wrote: I lol @ people who bash this thread. ForGG was not a top tier player which this article is all about. When (if) Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Hydra or Stork switch and they fail to have decent results in Code S then you have the permission to "bash" this thread. Don't pick players like ForGG or Hyun, while they were certainly good, definitely not S-Class. This article was saying that there are 300+ pro's and semi-pro's who could dominate within a few months of switching. ForGG wasn't in the top 300 players? Ofcourse Flash, Jeadong and Biso are gonna do great in SC2 if they switch, noone who thinks this article is bollocks is arguing that. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On January 12 2012 19:15 sandyph wrote: read OP, they are low level BW player which made SC2 competition a farce That's not the point I was making with that. The point I was making was to counter the trolls who are only talking about ForGG when there's tons of other SC2 players who played BW professionally. Also, ForGG when switching was not that great. He probably wasn't too much better than MVP when switching, if not worse actually. He really fell off after his 2008 MSL win. In other words, he's just part of the "farce" as well. | ||
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
On January 12 2012 22:35 Trizz wrote: I lol @ people who bash this thread. ForGG was not a top tier player which this article is all about. When (if) Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Hydra or Stork switch and they fail to have decent results in Code S then you have the permission to "bash" this thread. Don't pick players like ForGG or Hyun, while they were certainly good, definitely not S-Class. Well, that is a different argument than the one made by the OP. He states there are 300 BW players who can come over and dominate. If that were true... I agree it would be a LARGE elephant in the room.... but if it is as you say where Flash, Jaedong, Bisu have "decent code S results.... well that's just a small blip on the SC2 competitive landscape and the OP is being hyperbolic. + Show Spoiler + This threat is already debunked in the sense, that if there is an ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.... he's been sitting there quietly for over a year now.... maybe the elephant is on its last legs? Young SC2 talents that have played SC2 for 18 months, have logged 10 hours a day for 300 days. That's 3000 man hours. I don't think there are that many people SO much more talented than the current top sc2 pros, that they can overcome that time deficit in SC2. Clearly ForGG is a hint that the skill translation is not without loss, or that the SC2 talent is not so poor. You can see he's a great great player by watching his builds and how he controls his units and multitasks.... but that doesn't mean he wins the game. I've seen him lose many games on his stream where his skills showed brilliantly, but he lost to solid, well executed play. Knowing how to win in SC2 is a big factor... actual game experience in the actual game means something. BW provides mechanics similarities, but the "game" and the mind games are different. Those differences take time to overcome, and that time deficit continues to grow. I agree, that BW pro's moving over the SC2 is a huge factor, but I no longer think that it is earth shattering. It will simply be a shakeup in the SC2 landscape that is already in constant flux. If 5 of the top 10 Worlds Best players in 2012 or 2013 are current BW pro's. I'll concede OP was right. If 2 or less, the OP wrong. In two years we'll know :D | ||
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FunnyPicture
Sweden147 Posts
On January 12 2012 22:35 Trizz wrote: I lol @ people who bash this thread. ForGG was not a top tier player which this article is all about. When (if) Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Hydra or Stork switch and they fail to have decent results in Code S then you have the permission to "bash" this thread. Don't pick players like ForGG or Hyun, while they were certainly good, definitely not S-Class. Exactly. I feel that there is a gap on this site between people that followed BW and understand the crazy skill in that scene and the people that are "new" to RTS games. The SC2 fangroup are taking a shot at bashing this article because it caters to the more old-school audience that have deeper knowledge in the metagame and general direction of Starcraft esport. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:56 FunnyPicture wrote: Exactly. I feel that there is a gap on this site between people that followed BW and understand the crazy skill in that scene and the people that are "new" to RTS games. The SC2 fangroup are taking a shot at bashing this article because it caters to the more old-school audience that have deeper knowledge in the metagame and general direction of Starcraft esport. Except this article wasn't about the top Code S players of BW, it was about how any BW pro could switch over and dominate the scene. So unless you're saying that ForGG wasn't in the top 300 BW players then yes this article has been proven to be the farce many of us thought it was. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On January 12 2012 22:35 Trizz wrote: I lol @ people who bash this thread. ForGG was not a top tier player which this article is all about. When (if) Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Hydra or Stork switch and they fail to have decent results in Code S then you have the permission to "bash" this thread. Don't pick players like ForGG or Hyun, while they were certainly good, definitely not S-Class. i quote from the article: "I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games." 300 current pro's and semi pro's. Where exactly do you see S-Class Brood war players? | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On January 13 2012 20:56 FunnyPicture wrote: Exactly. I feel that there is a gap on this site between people that followed BW and understand the crazy skill in that scene and the people that are "new" to RTS games. The SC2 fangroup are taking a shot at bashing this article because it caters to the more old-school audience that have deeper knowledge in the metagame and general direction of Starcraft esport. Funny that Artosis and Idra thought it was a piece of trash article. I guess they're not old school enough, damn nubs. | ||
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Sawofhackness
Afghanistan183 Posts
It was a good experiment because top players often switched. However a player who was very dominant in one incarnation of the game didn't necessarily perform well in another. It was down to the player himself and a myriad of factors. Claiming the top 300 Broodwar players will dominate Starcraft 2 is ridiculous. However, claiming the top 10 Broodwar players should do well because their mechanics are finely honed over a decade is a more accurate portrayal. Just take a look at the hierarchy of US and European Broodwar players who made the switch to Starcraft 2 - some were successful, some .. not so much. TL;DR Being at the top of Broodwar helps but doesn't guarantee success in Starcraft 2 | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
On January 13 2012 21:27 Sawofhackness wrote: I've seen the progression of top players through Quake 1, 2, 3 and onto 4 and back to Quakelive (essentially Quake 3) It was a good experiment because top players often switched. However a player who was very dominant in one incarnation of the game didn't necessarily perform well in another. It was down to the player himself and a myriad of factors. Claiming the top 300 Broodwar players will dominate Starcraft 2 is ridiculous. However, claiming the top 10 Broodwar players should do well because their mechanics are finely honed over a decade is a more accurate portrayal. Just take a look at the hierarchy of US and European Broodwar players who made the switch to Starcraft 2 - some were successful, some .. not so much. TL;DR Being at the top of Broodwar helps but doesn't guarantee success in Starcraft 2 I like this TL;DR, i think it will always have more to do with their insane practice schedule, and less to do with their BW experience. | ||
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FunnyPicture
Sweden147 Posts
On January 13 2012 21:23 Longshank wrote: Funny that Artosis and Idra thought it was a piece of trash article. I guess they're not old school enough, damn nubs. Yeah, you are right. Artosis and Idra are well known for their completely factual and unbiasade viewpoints on the current Starcraft metagame.. | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On January 13 2012 22:02 figq wrote: The hypothesis of this article is unfalsifiable. There will never be a current top BW player in SC2. By the time they convert to SC2, they can't be considered top BW players anymore. If Bisu and Jaedong now transfer to SC2, people will remember that they haven't won major titles lately, Bisu despite record of wins last year was just getting shaky in SPL, Jeadong way past his peak, and other such crap will be said. But moreover, in the meantime Baby and Killer, for example, will start winning titles, and they will be viewed as the best RTS gamers in the world, people will not even want Jaedong and Flash anymore. But then if Baby and Killer also switch, they will be replaced too, and so on. The hypothesis is unfalsifiable, and the argument will be open forever, because BW will live forever. That doesn't change that SC2 is easy mode compared to BW, which auto-makes the competition there a farce. We all know it, but we also like it, just as we like showmatches and Fantasy leagues. What you are saying is waaaaaaaaaay more extreme as the article states. In the article there stands "300 pro's or semi pro's. You are saying only the current very top, no matter the time. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote: Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. Lol no. He's not even the best at sc2 yet. Had he been mid level A team before he switched I'd give him more credit, but Flash, Jaedong, etc. are out of reach in terms of talent. No one in sc2 has reigned over a game for as long as they have, holding the records they have. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On January 13 2012 22:26 FunnyPicture wrote: Yeah, you are right. Artosis and Idra are well known for their completely factual and unbiasade viewpoints on the current Starcraft metagame.. Continuing on your example of completely unrelated things such as the meta game, they also don't like the colour blue. | ||
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Keone
United States812 Posts
On January 13 2012 22:36 Steveling wrote: Btw if MMA switched now from sc2 to bw with his current mindset and work ethic he would reign over the bw scene. This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this thread. If MMA switched over, he wouldn't even be able to make the A-Team, and very likely not even make the B-Team anymore. MMA has BW experience but was only in a B-Team before switching to SC2. Don't get it twisted. The road between BW and SC2 only goes one way. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On January 13 2012 22:26 FunnyPicture wrote: Yeah, you are right. Artosis and Idra are well known for their completely factual and unbiasade viewpoints on the current Starcraft metagame.. And what does the "metagame" have to do with how they feel sc2 relates to bw exactly? | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On January 13 2012 22:43 Assirra wrote: I know. If you ask me, actually it's already proven that BW progamers dominate the SC2 scene, as I pointed out before with stats. But look at the responses. They will always see something more out there, in the BW world. This kind of hypothesis ("there're much better RTS players in BW at the moment, hence the SC2 scene is a farce") will always be open.What you are saying is waaaaaaaaaay more extreme as the article states. In the article there stands "300 pro's or semi pro's. You are saying only the current very top, no matter the time. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On January 13 2012 23:43 figq wrote: I know. If you ask me, actually it's already proven that BW progamers dominate the SC2 scene, as I pointed out before with stats. But look at the responses. They will always see something more out there, in the BW world. This kind of hypothesis ("there're much better RTS players in BW at the moment, hence the SC2 scene is a farce") will always be open. Well the thing is, SC2 is still to young to not be dominted by ex BW players. Almost every korean that is playing SC2 the first couple years will be ex brood war players. We should wait a while till we see some people who never played brood war professionally before we make any judgements. Oh and if we play by your own logic you cannot prove that the best BW pro's dominate SC2 since they are still playing BW. I only recently got in to BW and while i agree that is more skill based i don't consider SC2 scene a farce since even tough there are a lot of resemblence, it's still a different game. Hell if we go by the article logic the whole foreigner scene is basically a farce. | ||
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