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On January 18 2012 17:33 FunnyPicture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 22:15 aderum wrote:On January 17 2012 21:56 FunnyPicture wrote:On January 16 2012 12:12 SkimGuy wrote:
I have a feeling we're going to look back on this topic one year from now, and a lot of naysayer's faces will be red Word. It's basically the people that have been around for a while and understand the level of skill in the BW scene vs people new to RTS games. Funny how forGG, a person who surely would fit in the top 300 that OP is talking about, had 9 months for him to be the best but still only managed to drop out of the first round in code s. Im pretty sure the faces who are red will be the yaysayers. Well the people than know and understand the BW scene don't really care about the top 300, we care about the top 10. Until a truly prominent player switch over to SC2 we just won't know. See, that's why this thread will never end. Even if the OP has much wider claims, most interpretations narrow the requirement to only the very top BW. And this will never be verifiable, because by the time a full conversion of any BW player happens, he would not be considered top BW anymore and will be replaced by others in the BW scene. So in SC2 we will always talk only about B-teamers and post-peak A-teamers who've been replaced. The dream of the great BW players who never switch will remain open forever. Of course, that doesn't mean the claim that they are the best RTS players in the world at any moment is wrong (I'm pretty sure it's correct), but that will never be strictly verifiable, except by our intuition, and indirect implication.
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On January 18 2012 17:59 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 17:33 FunnyPicture wrote:On January 17 2012 22:15 aderum wrote:On January 17 2012 21:56 FunnyPicture wrote:On January 16 2012 12:12 SkimGuy wrote:
I have a feeling we're going to look back on this topic one year from now, and a lot of naysayer's faces will be red Word. It's basically the people that have been around for a while and understand the level of skill in the BW scene vs people new to RTS games. Funny how forGG, a person who surely would fit in the top 300 that OP is talking about, had 9 months for him to be the best but still only managed to drop out of the first round in code s. Im pretty sure the faces who are red will be the yaysayers. Well the people than know and understand the BW scene don't really care about the top 300, we care about the top 10. Until a truly prominent player switch over to SC2 we just won't know. See, that's why this thread will never end. Even if the OP has much wider claims, most interpretations narrow the requirement to only the very top BW. And this will never be verifiable, because by the time a full conversion of any BW player happens, he would not be considered top BW anymore and will be replaced by others in the BW scene. So in SC2 we will always talk only about B-teamers and post-peak A-teamers who've been replaced. The dream of the great BW players who never switch will remain open forever. Of course, that doesn't mean the claim that they are the best RTS players in the world at any moment is wrong (I'm pretty sure it's correct), but that will never be strictly verifiable, except by our intuition, and indirect implication.
Of course its not about only top10 people, actually the whole mystery of how BW talents translate into sc2 still is complete mystery, people are chanting flash bisu jaedong like a chant without thinking. Why i said that because the scenario whenl some up and coming b teamer from bw who only played for 1 year switched and dominate sc2 for 5 years can happen aswell. In fact most up and coming sc2 players (like leenock etc)were good mechanical bw players who only lacked polishment, strategies, and only top portion of mechanics which to be frank are not that relevant in sc2, adaptability (in terms of hotkeying, mechanics, mind set)is rewarded much more in for players who switched to sc2 rather than their "raw talent". The guy who has only 200 apm but adapt better than the guy with 400 apm will be better period (in reality, in sc2 mechanical effort equals less outcome based on disparity of players mechanical prowess in match).
Yes this article treats everything in black and white notion which is not the best, but dont forget this article was a bait, and treat it like that, not to say this article actually has valid informations and has truth in it. But people here are mostly occupied with either saying this article is still true or no its complete bullshit look forgg fails. And to be frank both are wrong. Flash, well flash seems like a player with one of the best adaptiness, JD? Not sure, Bisu? Well maybe. I mean despite all of this they all will be scary good even if all bw scene switched but in the long run the one who adaps perfetively with how sc2 works both mechanically and in their mindset will win. And that doesnt necceserily mean it has to be JD/flash/bisu.
There are also psychological issues, if players will continue to have the same drive? Will we see Bisu grinding 70 games(dont remember the exact ammount) like he did once for bw? Who knows, names are names people are people, but 2 years ago everyone would laugh at zergbong, and rightfully so because everyone thought sc2 will really mirror bw, however now no one would dare now, because he proved despite all of his crap play in 1/1 leagues he is in fact beating his superiors in sc2. Why? Who knows. The ammount of variables is too big.
For me the underlying notion of this article was always "Look at those names and respect them, you will probably never ever care about their bw history, but they were good, so i hope they will dominate in sc2 to gave a last honor to dying bw". The ammount of people who jumped from the bw ship is really big, the media transition only fueled this. This is all an effect of this.
If we really want to talk about how one or other individual will fare in sc2 we should actually refrain from trying to either prove or disprove this article, if we REALLY want to talk about this that is. This whole article was just a bait a hype train, based on sc2 switch. Maybe im first to say this but there will be some players who will not adapt(at least there is a high possibility for this), even the prominent ones, that doesnt mean bw is easy sc2 hard. Its just different testing field, which in fact has ONLY slight correlation to highest level of bw competition.
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Seems to me Brood War fans are being too zealous in their support of Brood War players and SC2 fans are being too zealous in their support of SC2 players. The notion that BW pros will dominate SC2 pros because when they switch to SC2 they will practice harder makes perfect sense to me - provided they do actually practice harder than SC2 pros. At the same time, these BW pros weren't born with the skill they now possess. If new talent can grow to excel in BW, then it can in SC2 as well.
For all their similarities SC2 and BW are still different games, and whilst the mechanics of playing should transfer over from BW to SC2 perfectly, one advantage SC2 players will undeniably have is that SC2 is still evolving whereas BW is not. The current crop of BW pros did not pave the way, they refined, and in SC2 there's still a lot more room for creativity. I have no doubt that the top BW players will be successful in SC2 simply by virtue of them having everything required to succeed, but I would not be surprised if the status quo is upset, and some BW pros struggle to adapt to the rapidly changing meta-game as well as many BW fans expect them to.
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I bet MMA and MVP are awaiting the elephant this year. Hopefully, elephant proves to be bigger than Forgg.
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Everytime one of them wins "OMG BW gonna kick yo ass lolololol"
Everytime one of them loses "He was never good, will never be good and if a real BW pro ever showed up then you wouldn't even be able to watch sc2 because the games would be over so quickly"
Really wish that this discussion would die completely though >< I really like watching ForGG play, and MVP and MMA despite how awful the BW people say they are.
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On January 26 2012 17:31 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I bet MMA and MVP are awaiting the elephant this year. Hopefully, elephant proves to be bigger than Forgg.
The top SC2 player (MVP) is part of the elephant. Just saying. He was a Woongjin Terran, and then switched to SC2.
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On January 28 2012 17:58 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 17:31 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I bet MMA and MVP are awaiting the elephant this year. Hopefully, elephant proves to be bigger than Forgg. The top SC2 player (MVP) is part of the elephant. Just saying.
So is MMA really. He was being trained by iloveoov personally before he switched.
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lol at the Small Elephants who switched. You guys need to wait for the humongous ones to truly realize that the scene you're following has thus far has been a farce.
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If you ask me, riptide is wrong. But not for the reasons that many of you think.
The top BW players, should they switch, will NOT dominate players like MVP, MMA, Nestea etc.
They will not dominate because the SC2 skill ceiling is too low to effectively differentiate the professional BW players from each other.
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On January 28 2012 18:05 writer22816 wrote:
If you ask me, riptide is wrong. But not for the reasons that many of you think.
The top BW players, should they switch, will NOT dominate players like MVP, MMA, Nestea etc.
They will not dominate because the SC2 skill ceiling is too low to effectively differentiate the professional BW players from each other.
Like counter-strike? 
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On January 28 2012 17:58 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 17:31 NightOfTheDead wrote:
I bet MMA and MVP are awaiting the elephant this year. Hopefully, elephant proves to be bigger than Forgg. The top SC2 player (MVP) is part of the elephant. Just saying. He was a Woongjin Terran, and then switched to SC2.
No he's not. The entire point of the OP is about how dominant players who have not yet switched would be if they were to switch, as evidenced by how terrible the players who have switched (MVP being one of them) were at BW. The point of the OP was not, is not, and will never be that people with BW experience make good SC2 players, no matter how much the BW elitists want it to be. That's simply not what was said.
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United Kingdom38256 Posts
On January 28 2012 18:05 shaftofpleasure wrote:
lol at the Small Elephants who switched. You guys need to wait for the humongous ones to truly realize that the scene you're following has thus far has been a farce.
On January 28 2012 18:05 writer22816 wrote:
If you ask me, riptide is wrong. But not for the reasons that many of you think.
The top BW players, should they switch, will NOT dominate players like MVP, MMA, Nestea etc.
They will not dominate because the SC2 skill ceiling is too low to effectively differentiate the professional BW players from each other.
It's funny to see the two flimsy reasons back to back that would still prompt continued discussion of this thread if a sizable player migration did happen but most failed to make a mark.
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On January 28 2012 18:05 writer22816 wrote:
If you ask me, riptide is wrong. But not for the reasons that many of you think.
The top BW players, should they switch, will NOT dominate players like MVP, MMA, Nestea etc.
They will not dominate because the SC2 skill ceiling is too low to effectively differentiate the professional BW players from each other.
That doesn't seem to be the case though, because the top players in SC2 have differentiated themselves with most of the GSL's going to a handful of players. Also, the way top pro's and KR players go through the open bracket at MLG consistently. That too shows that its not a luck based or skill ceiling-ed game.
Despite that, you drawing the correct conclusion that the BW players will not dominate :D
There has been too many man-hours invested by talented young gamers in SC2, for any BW pro's to just switch over and start dominating. They are at least 6 months intense training behind and losing ground by the day.
Time is not on their side, even if you concede they are truly special in their talent.
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On January 28 2012 18:05 writer22816 wrote:
If you ask me, riptide is wrong. But not for the reasons that many of you think.
The top BW players, should they switch, will NOT dominate players like MVP, MMA, Nestea etc.
They will not dominate because the SC2 skill ceiling is too low to effectively differentiate the professional BW players from each other.
This seems pretty intuitive to me, since sc2 is a different playing field and all that.
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So, MMA and MVP are the best sc2 players but the skill celling is too low to differentiate sc2 players.
But MMA and MVP are the best players.
But the skill celling is too low.
Yeah, ok.
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On January 28 2012 18:37 MrCon wrote:
So, MMA and MVP are the best sc2 players but the skill celling is too low to differentiate sc2 players.
But MMA and MVP are the best players.
But the skill celling is too low.
Yeah, ok.
I don't think anyone has any idea of what's going on with sc2 right now until another expansion comes out and the game is more fully fleshed out like BW. Too high of expectations and too much elitisim to get a discussion getting anything other than "my game is better than yours" going when the game is so young/simplistic.
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this thread should be locked until a year after flash and jaedong switch over full time.
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It's really hard to tell if anyone from BW would dominate SC2 if they switched over. There's too many variables. It's like asking if aliens existed.
Maybe Jaedong or Flash or a few of the current good BW players has tried SC2 and given it a legitimate crack and they haven't been able to succeed as a top SC2 players. Maybe the competition hasn't been a farce.
Or maybe the top SC2 players really don't have the talent of the top BW players.
Maybe I'm wrong and when the top 10 of BW right now, switch over to SC2, they'll dominate. Maybe. Hard to tell. Gut instinct is that BW players are still better.
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EPT
