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On January 28 2012 18:40 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 18:37 MrCon wrote:
So, MMA and MVP are the best sc2 players but the skill celling is too low to differentiate sc2 players.
But MMA and MVP are the best players.
But the skill celling is too low.
Yeah, ok. I don't think anyone has any idea of what's going on with sc2 right now until another expansion comes out and the game is more fully fleshed out like BW. Too high of expectations and too much elitisim to get a discussion getting anything other than "my game is better than yours" going when the game is so young/simplistic.
That's not his point. He's saying that the people who are calling MVP and MMA the best are also saying that the skill ceiling is too low to separate brood war pros in terms of skill. Except that's contradictory, because they're saying MVP and MMA are the best, ergo, they are above the others (like Forgg) so there is a separation of skill so their second point cannot be true.
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On January 28 2012 18:43 courtpanda wrote:
this thread should be locked until a year after flash and jaedong switch over full time.
How do you know that there won't be some newcomer who will embarass them horribly when they switch over? (Incomming history lesson im sure i'll earn) Nada as an example probably looked pretty damn good in his day and nobody considered that his skill level would be surpassed so much. Then people like flash came along with no history before and now makes Nada's reign look amateurish. For all we know there will be some new kid who will come in BW to for all we know and make flash look like an amateur after a few years, and I'm sure there will be a new comer who will make the current champions and the BW champions look like complete noobs in SC2 after awhile.
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On January 28 2012 18:52 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 18:43 courtpanda wrote:
this thread should be locked until a year after flash and jaedong switch over full time. How do you know that there won't be some newcomer who will embarass them horribly when they switch over? (Incomming history lesson im sure i'll earn) Nada as an example probably looked pretty damn good in his day and nobody considered that his skill level would be surpassed so much. Then people like flash came along with no history before and now makes Nada's reign look amateurish. For all we know there will be some new kid who will come in BW to for all we know and make flash look like an amateur after a few years, and I'm sure there will be a new comer who will make the current champions and the BW champions look like complete noobs in SC2 after awhile.
I'm pretty sure you just missed out the bonjwas in between. Which states that Nadas prime was kinda over since a while when Flash started playing. He took gold as 15 year old, and was (still is) a unstoppable force at the age of 17.
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I wish that people who play SC2 would at least try to play BW before saying that, "It's a different game, therefore it doesn't carry over". Actually... it does.
Because BW was a harder game the top pros have a training regiment that is similar to professional sports. Look around at the SC2 teams now... aside from Slayers and a few other korean teams none of them have regular coaches (ESPECIALLY FOREIGNERS).
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I think a lot of the BW fanatics are underestimating the top SC2 players in general. But even if all top BW players are way above in "potential" SC2 skill, the longer they wait with switching the less chance they will have of eventually using it. When they have gotten accomodated to the differences between the games and caught up on the meta game there will be lots of new (and old) SC2 players that have caught up in skill level.
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From what I understand of the RTS games in general is usually, if you're good at one you're good at all of them.
That being said, Broodwar still has our most talented players because the pay is simply better.
Now when they transfer, will they all be amazing Gosu Code S players? Probably not all of them, but a good percentage will be.
Starcraft 2 has just a few basic requirements to be good, three of which the Broodwar players already have.
1.Micro/Macro management
2.Good decision making skills
3.Mechanics
4.Knowledge of units/structures.
How long do you think it's going to take Flash or Jaedong or any of the other top players to learn how the new units operate?
Flash is one of, if not the best Macro player in the world, his mechanics are flawless, he's created numerous builds. He's a starcraft genius, you can't seriously think that when these top BW players switch over that they're not going to dominate?
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The arguments in this thread has changed so many times since the original article was posted. From what I can see now we've gotten to the point of arguing about if God would be good at sc2.
At first it was " 300 players could dominate the sc2 scene at any moment " Maybe it was true when this was posted but times have changed. No one is going to argue about Flash, Jaedong or Bisu. It's the other " alright " A-teamers that are being doubted at this point I think. Some of the current sc2 progamers are really stepping up their skill level in recent months.
We are starting to see the real " S Class " of SC2. I doubt most of the current BW A-teamers could switch over and be better than MVP, MMA, DRG, Jjakji, Leenock with ease.
I have to agree with Thombur on the longer the BW guys wait the harder it will be to catch up.
We've seen ForGG come into the GSL, dominate code A. But then fail hard in Code S the following season. I have to admit I was part of the hype train for him but now that we've seen a lot more televised games he seems to be just another mid tier terran in the grand scheme of Code S. Now people will make the arguments " He has not won anything since 2008! "
Where does it end? Who is good enough to prove the " Elephant " really exists? If we're waiting for Flash to switch over to prove that BW players are better at this point I think the true meaning has been lost.
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On January 28 2012 22:32 Dodgin wrote:
The arguments in this thread has changed so many times since the original article was posted. From what I can see now we've gotten to the point of arguing about if God would be good at sc2.
At first it was " 300 players could dominate the sc2 scene at any moment " Maybe it was true when this was posted but times have changed. No one is going to argue about Flash, Jaedong or Bisu. It's the other " alright " A-teamers that are being doubted at this point I think. Some of the current sc2 progamers are really stepping up their skill level in recent months.
We are starting to see the real " S Class " of SC2. I doubt most of the current BW A-teamers could switch over and be better than MVP, MMA, DRG, Jjakji, Leenock with ease.
I have to agree with Thombur on the longer the BW guys wait the harder it will be to catch up.
We've seen ForGG come into the GSL, dominate code A. But then fail hard in Code S the following season. I have to admit I was part of the hype train for him but now that we've seen a lot more televised games he seems to be just another mid tier terran in the grand scheme of Code S. Now people will make the arguments " He has not won anything since 2008! "
Where does it end? Who is good enough to prove the " Elephant " really exists? If we're waiting for Flash to switch over to prove that BW players are better at this point I think the true meaning has been lost.
But MVP was an A - Teamer.
I think ForGG has a lot of potential, even though he slacked off for the last few years and lost nearly every game, he has a bit of catching up to do.
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Denmark3553 Posts
I think it's more about, when sc1 coaches turn over more so than the actual players.
Nada is the best example of a sc1 real pro, HE HAS THE MECHANICS, and he has done fairly well in sc2, but even he is starting to fade out a little, as hard it is to say for me.
But i'm liking what i'm seeing the skilled players are starting to raise to the top:
MVP, MMA, Sage, MC, Hero, DRG
Foreign: Stephano, Thorzain, MaNa, Ret
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On January 28 2012 22:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 22:32 Dodgin wrote:
The arguments in this thread has changed so many times since the original article was posted. From what I can see now we've gotten to the point of arguing about if God would be good at sc2.
At first it was " 300 players could dominate the sc2 scene at any moment " Maybe it was true when this was posted but times have changed. No one is going to argue about Flash, Jaedong or Bisu. It's the other " alright " A-teamers that are being doubted at this point I think. Some of the current sc2 progamers are really stepping up their skill level in recent months.
We are starting to see the real " S Class " of SC2. I doubt most of the current BW A-teamers could switch over and be better than MVP, MMA, DRG, Jjakji, Leenock with ease.
I have to agree with Thombur on the longer the BW guys wait the harder it will be to catch up.
We've seen ForGG come into the GSL, dominate code A. But then fail hard in Code S the following season. I have to admit I was part of the hype train for him but now that we've seen a lot more televised games he seems to be just another mid tier terran in the grand scheme of Code S. Now people will make the arguments " He has not won anything since 2008! "
Where does it end? Who is good enough to prove the " Elephant " really exists? If we're waiting for Flash to switch over to prove that BW players are better at this point I think the true meaning has been lost. But MVP was an A - Teamer. I think ForGG has a lot of potential, even though he slacked off for the last few years and lost nearly every game, he has a bit of catching up to do.
Your post does not really address my points but I will respond anyway.
MVP was an A-teamer back in 2010, he has grown as a player since then and during his year of dominance over the sc2 scene starting with GSL 2011 January up until this point. He is not the same person the BW fans will remember. Every month the top tier of sc2 players widen the gap between them and the lesser players as people who follow the GSL know very well.
MVP has had all the time from when he switched to sc2 to now to be as good as he is. He started out being one of the best players in the world because sc2 was so new and the established sc2 pros we have today were not something that existed back then in terms of skill level. His BW experience shined through in the early days of the game. Make no mistake had it not been for his continued determination to be the best and keep practicing every day, he would not still, a year or so later be considered the best there is. ( I don't want to start an argument about MMA vs MVP in skill, I am fans of them both let's keep that for a different thread )
Look at July and Nada. They are not even close to the top of sc2 players right now, because they stopped practicing as much as the other guys.
As far as your second point goes ForGG does indeed have potential. But he is not exactly sweeping the floor with the current sc2 scene as predicted, for one reason or another.
Let's just throw a random current BW A-teamer into the mix and say they switched over when MVP did. Let's say that Jangbi had followed MVP's path from the start and trained every day just as he has. In my opinion he would be at the top as well. But the chances of that happening now and having them catch up quickly enough to compete are rather low as MVP has had all this time to perfect his game in SC2. Unless some of the " rumors " are true and a really good BW player has been practicing sc2 full time for a while now.
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The original thread just smacks of ego over a game
We went through all this with each of the Quake's. How Quake 1 players would utterly dominate Quake 2 players when Quake 3 came out.
The experiment already took place and it didn't happen.
There is a certain timeframe for high class pro's in previous similar game to make the switch and "quickly dominate" - but that window has now virtually closed..
When the top pro's DO actually switch - we will hear more excuses why they aren't taking the top 3 places in the first GSL season they enter. I expect them to EVENTUALLY do well, but certainly not dominate from the START.
Jesus this thread gets on my nerves 
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Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?
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On January 28 2012 23:05 Choboo wrote:
Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?
No. If players get good enough to hit the skill ceiling games will mean fuck all between those players and the game will be shit at a high level.
Luckily enough, there is no evidence of a close skill ceiling just yet.
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Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.
Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome.
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On January 28 2012 23:05 Choboo wrote:
Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?
I have no idea what you're talking about. Football has an incredible skill ceiling; there's a reason Barcelona keeps winning in Spain, and why there's a top 4 in England (and in every other European league). In football having money means you keep buying the best players and keep winning because, well, frankly they can do what other players can't.
IMO one of the main draws of sports or ESPORTS is watching players do things that you know you'll never be able to do in your life on a consistent basis. In SC:BW that might have been JangBi storms, Flash maphack-like StarSense, in SC2 MKP's marine splitting comes to mind, and in football players like Messi and Ronaldo.
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On January 28 2012 23:10 prplhz wrote:
Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.
Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome.
Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though
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4713 Posts
While I don't usually post here, I think I could contribute with something useful now.
I believe the thread was most relevant at the time of its creation, because at that time people where still learning how to play, people where still learning how to macro properly, micro properly, timings, compositions etc. Maybe at that time if any BW pro switched right then he could have made just as big of a splash as anyone else.
However, as time went on, its dedication that payed of. The one thing about SC BW and SC2 I've learned is that, you never get anywhere if you don't put in the time neccessary. I think, more importantly than mechanics, MVP took away from his BW A-team, the mentality and dedication. That mindset that allows you to keep grinding games, hour after hour, day after day until you become the best, and once then still do it to remain the best.
This partially the reason why Koreans are considered, in general, better than EU or NA players, they are more dedicated. I'm not saying all EU or NA players are lazy or what not, but in general Koreans seem to be even more dedicated and willing to put in more time.
So, if all the BW pros switch in April, as is being hinted at. I think that, what will make them shine trough is the dedication, as first they won't be as strong, but given 6-9, months, they should be some serious contenders.
But on the flip side, if players like MMA, MVP, DRG, NesTea, Leenock etc, are already practicing to the best of their ability, than its quite possible they will still remain the best in the world.
I'm really not siding with anyone, I am mearly curious. I want the BW pros to switch already, because I want to see what happens, and potentially I want to see more competitiveness, more inovation and more brilliance.
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On January 28 2012 23:12 Choboo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 28 2012 23:10 prplhz wrote:
Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.
Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome. Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though
They've won three of the last six, that's pretty damn good. The reason they haven't won everything is because there's more to football than skill; it's not a game of rock, scissors, paper but at the same time you have to be able to compete strategically, athletically and skill-wise. By your logic about there being a low skill ceiling in football you could throw in, say, Bolton Wanderers into the UCL and they might have a chance of winning it all. While they might be able to win in a freak game, over more games played they'd just get rolled.
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On January 28 2012 23:32 elt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 23:12 Choboo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 28 2012 23:10 prplhz wrote:
Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.
Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome. Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though They've won three of the last six, that's pretty damn good. The reason they haven't won everything is because there's more to football than skill; it's not a game of rock, scissors, paper but at the same time you have to be able to compete strategically, athletically and skill-wise. By your logic about there being a low skill ceiling in football you could throw in, say, Bolton Wanderers into the UCL and they might have a chance of winning it all. While they might be able to win in a freak game, over more games played they'd just get rolled.
That sounds exactly like SC2 to me, maybe low skill-ceiling was the wrong word but volotileness is good so more players can win and not just the same player winning every tournament
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On January 28 2012 23:42 Choboo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 23:32 elt wrote:On January 28 2012 23:12 Choboo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 28 2012 23:10 prplhz wrote:
Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.
Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome. Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though They've won three of the last six, that's pretty damn good. The reason they haven't won everything is because there's more to football than skill; it's not a game of rock, scissors, paper but at the same time you have to be able to compete strategically, athletically and skill-wise. By your logic about there being a low skill ceiling in football you could throw in, say, Bolton Wanderers into the UCL and they might have a chance of winning it all. While they might be able to win in a freak game, over more games played they'd just get rolled. That sounds exactly like SC2 to me, maybe low skill-ceiling was the wrong word but volotileness is good so more players can win and not just the same player winning every tournament
referees making the wrong calls in football is good, because we don't get the best teams winning every game!
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EPT
