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The Elephant in the Room - Page 241

Forum Index > Final Edits
6513 CommentsPost a Reply
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cccever
Profile Joined June 2011
17 Posts
January 28 2012 14:51 GMT
#4801
On January 28 2012 23:12 Choboo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 23:10 prplhz wrote:
Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.

Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome.

Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though


And Flash isnt winning every OSL/MSL he enters, thats just impossible. The sport is over 100 years old and there is still room for teams like Barcelona with a winrate of 73% (since Guardiola is their coach) and players like Messi. There are basically always the same teams dominating their home leagues and do well in the CL and still people dont consider it to be boring.
shaftofpleasure
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Korea (North)1375 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 14:53:44
January 28 2012 14:53 GMT
#4802
It's funny how people address the elephant in the room argument using MVP to contradict it when in fact, MVP is just proving the idea of the elephant in the room along with many other ex-BW players. LOL
It's either the holes of my nose are getting smaller or my fingers are getting bigger. /// Always Rooting for the Underdog. Hyuk/Sin/Jaehoon/Juni/Hyvva/Hoejja/Canata //// Hiding in thread somewhere where BW is still in it's pure form here on TL.
Bottles
Profile Joined August 2011
Australia44 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 14:57:52
January 28 2012 14:56 GMT
#4803
Bring on the BW pros

EDIT: Is the elephant in the room banner (gsl studio with massive elephant) legit? if not photoshop skills are off the charts
elt
Profile Joined July 2010
Thailand1092 Posts
January 28 2012 14:59 GMT
#4804
On January 28 2012 23:42 Choboo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 23:32 elt wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:12 Choboo wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:10 prplhz wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.

Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome.

Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though


They've won three of the last six, that's pretty damn good. The reason they haven't won everything is because there's more to football than skill; it's not a game of rock, scissors, paper but at the same time you have to be able to compete strategically, athletically and skill-wise. By your logic about there being a low skill ceiling in football you could throw in, say, Bolton Wanderers into the UCL and they might have a chance of winning it all. While they might be able to win in a freak game, over more games played they'd just get rolled.

That sounds exactly like SC2 to me, maybe low skill-ceiling was the wrong word but volotileness is good so more players can win and not just the same player winning every tournament


Football is hardly volatile. Shifts only happen every 3-4 years depending on how players come and go, mature or retire. There's an equivalent to the TBLS in football, except that it's just bigger. Barcelona, Real Madrid; the previous years we had the 'Top Four' in England who looked nigh-untouchable; for the longest time Bayern Munich dominated everything in Germany etc etc The same teams in football always winning the same tournaments is a massive complaint about football. Look at the English Premier League. I think we're approaching 20 seasons, and there have only been 4 winners of which one team have won 12 seasons. I point to La Liga and ask if you remember a time when a winner wasn't Barca or Real. That's hardly volatility.

I agree some volatility is good, but too much makes the competition a joke. I started responding because of your comment about football more than anything else though; I follow SC2 much more than BW and I think the tangent you're going off is more SC2 v BW rather than the merits of BW progamers.
(Under Construction)
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
January 28 2012 14:59 GMT
#4805
On January 28 2012 23:56 Bottles wrote:
Bring on the BW pros

EDIT: Is the elephant in the room banner (gsl studio with massive elephant) legit? if not photoshop skills are off the charts


of course its legit, dont you see he is going to enter the booth for his team's next match?
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
Steveling
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Greece10806 Posts
January 28 2012 15:04 GMT
#4806
Can we drop this already.
For the 100th time, it's not the game, it's the players. If Flash with his current work ethic switches to sc2 he will be good.
If MMA with his current drive switches to bw he will be good. The end.

*If someone's gonna say that mma was in bw already and he wasn't that good you need to put your brain to work for a bit.
My dick has shrunk to the point where it looks like I have 3 balls.
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
January 28 2012 15:20 GMT
#4807
On January 28 2012 23:59 elt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 23:42 Choboo wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:32 elt wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:12 Choboo wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:10 prplhz wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Football doesn't have a high skill ceiling? Then why has Messi won player of the year for 3 years straight? Because no one else can reach him because he lives and breaths football. Imagine a StarCraft 2 player who can win GSL World Championship for 3 years straight. You can't. You can't imagine a player who can win a major StarCraft 2 tournament three times in a row.

Imagine a player who can win a major Brood War tournament three times in a row. You are now imagining NaDa. NaDa so awesome.

Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though


They've won three of the last six, that's pretty damn good. The reason they haven't won everything is because there's more to football than skill; it's not a game of rock, scissors, paper but at the same time you have to be able to compete strategically, athletically and skill-wise. By your logic about there being a low skill ceiling in football you could throw in, say, Bolton Wanderers into the UCL and they might have a chance of winning it all. While they might be able to win in a freak game, over more games played they'd just get rolled.

That sounds exactly like SC2 to me, maybe low skill-ceiling was the wrong word but volotileness is good so more players can win and not just the same player winning every tournament


Football is hardly volatile. Shifts only happen every 3-4 years depending on how players come and go, mature or retire. There's an equivalent to the TBLS in football, except that it's just bigger. Barcelona, Real Madrid; the previous years we had the 'Top Four' in England who looked nigh-untouchable; for the longest time Bayern Munich dominated everything in Germany etc etc The same teams in football always winning the same tournaments is a massive complaint about football. Look at the English Premier League. I think we're approaching 20 seasons, and there have only been 4 winners of which one team have won 12 seasons. I point to La Liga and ask if you remember a time when a winner wasn't Barca or Real. That's hardly volatility.

I agree some volatility is good, but too much makes the competition a joke. I started responding because of your comment about football more than anything else though; I follow SC2 much more than BW and I think the tangent you're going off is more SC2 v BW rather than the merits of BW progamers.


I wouldn't say it's volatile(and low skill ceiling is just...wow) but there is some randomness or unpredictability(if that's a word) to football, especially to short tournaments like World Cup or CL. It's far from certain the better team will win, which of course is what makes the game interesting for spectators. When going in to a World Cup as a Swede, I know we're probably get our asses kicked when playing one of the big nations - but the dream always live, upsets aren't that uncommon and has lead to magical summers in the past.
ratzp0li
Profile Joined December 2011
United States340 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 15:22:45
January 28 2012 15:21 GMT
#4808
On January 29 2012 00:04 Steveling wrote:
Can we drop this already.
For the 100th time, it's not the game, it's the players. If Flash with his current work ethic switches to sc2 he will be good.
If MMA with his current drive switches to bw he will be good. The end.

*If someone's gonna say that mma was in bw already and he wasn't that good you need to put your brain to work for a bit.

ofc. Who says that Moon won't be able to dominate if he is able to reattain the level he achieved in wc3? The dude practices an insane amount and has a sick drive.

It all comes down to how much you practice, really.
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
January 28 2012 15:36 GMT
#4809
On January 28 2012 23:00 Dodgin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 22:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On January 28 2012 22:32 Dodgin wrote:
The arguments in this thread has changed so many times since the original article was posted. From what I can see now we've gotten to the point of arguing about if God would be good at sc2.

At first it was " 300 players could dominate the sc2 scene at any moment " Maybe it was true when this was posted but times have changed. No one is going to argue about Flash, Jaedong or Bisu. It's the other " alright " A-teamers that are being doubted at this point I think. Some of the current sc2 progamers are really stepping up their skill level in recent months.

We are starting to see the real " S Class " of SC2. I doubt most of the current BW A-teamers could switch over and be better than MVP, MMA, DRG, Jjakji, Leenock with ease.

I have to agree with Thombur on the longer the BW guys wait the harder it will be to catch up.

We've seen ForGG come into the GSL, dominate code A. But then fail hard in Code S the following season. I have to admit I was part of the hype train for him but now that we've seen a lot more televised games he seems to be just another mid tier terran in the grand scheme of Code S. Now people will make the arguments " He has not won anything since 2008! "

Where does it end? Who is good enough to prove the " Elephant " really exists? If we're waiting for Flash to switch over to prove that BW players are better at this point I think the true meaning has been lost.


But MVP was an A - Teamer.

I think ForGG has a lot of potential, even though he slacked off for the last few years and lost nearly every game, he has a bit of catching up to do.


Your post does not really address my points but I will respond anyway.

MVP was an A-teamer back in 2010, he has grown as a player since then and during his year of dominance over the sc2 scene starting with GSL 2011 January up until this point. He is not the same person the BW fans will remember. Every month the top tier of sc2 players widen the gap between them and the lesser players as people who follow the GSL know very well.

MVP has had all the time from when he switched to sc2 to now to be as good as he is. He started out being one of the best players in the world because sc2 was so new and the established sc2 pros we have today were not something that existed back then in terms of skill level. His BW experience shined through in the early days of the game. Make no mistake had it not been for his continued determination to be the best and keep practicing every day, he would not still, a year or so later be considered the best there is. ( I don't want to start an argument about MMA vs MVP in skill, I am fans of them both let's keep that for a different thread )

Look at July and Nada. They are not even close to the top of sc2 players right now, because they stopped practicing as much as the other guys.

As far as your second point goes ForGG does indeed have potential. But he is not exactly sweeping the floor with the current sc2 scene as predicted, for one reason or another.

Let's just throw a random current BW A-teamer into the mix and say they switched over when MVP did. Let's say that Jangbi had followed MVP's path from the start and trained every day just as he has. In my opinion he would be at the top as well. But the chances of that happening now and having them catch up quickly enough to compete are rather low as MVP has had all this time to perfect his game in SC2. Unless some of the " rumors " are true and a really good BW player has been practicing sc2 full time for a while now.


Well you know as well as i do that Nada is the "Michael Jordan" of BW, he was great during his prime, but he is no longer capable of being the best, he is also studying. As for July, he was great, but he was never really good like Nada. He is also past his prime by many years.

As for this article, it was in the context of May last year. At that time BW players could have switched over and made a huge impact on the scene.

I agree that it would now take longer for BW players to get better, but the potential level at which they will rise to will be higher. I can see ForGG if he practises as much as he can, to be as good as if not better than MVP over time. I foresee ForGG winning a GSL over MVP if he plays enough that he can start creating really powerful builds, like he did during his (only) MSL run in BW.

And then after he achieves that, he will probably just slump like never before.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 28 2012 16:37 GMT
#4810
On January 28 2012 23:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:
It's funny how people address the elephant in the room argument using MVP to contradict it when in fact, MVP is just proving the idea of the elephant in the room along with many other ex-BW players. LOL


It's funny that you haven't read the OP (can't blame you though, it's as awful as the rest of this thread which you just contributed to.) The OP states that MVP is one of those "fake competitors" and that if "any of the 300 BW pros" were to switch mvp would be dominated by them because he is now an SC2 player and was bad in BW. So no, MVP is not part of the elephant, because according to the OP people who switched to SC2 early on don't count as BW players because they were "bad at BW." Next time please actually read before posting, it makes you look like slightly less of a fanatic.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
January 28 2012 16:54 GMT
#4811
On January 28 2012 16:56 The KY wrote:
Now please; no one bump Elephant in the Room.


On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





God damn you.
Seraphone
Profile Joined January 2012
United Kingdom1219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 16:58:57
January 28 2012 16:58 GMT
#4812
On January 28 2012 23:05 Choboo wrote:
Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?


ROFL at Football not having a high skill ceiling? Are you insane? Football has a near infinite skill ceiling way, way higher than Starcraft.
Mvp, Nestea, Leenock, MC, Oz, Jjakji!
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
January 28 2012 17:00 GMT
#4813
On January 28 2012 20:52 cydial wrote:
I wish that people who play SC2 would at least try to play BW before saying that, "It's a different game, therefore it doesn't carry over". Actually... it does.

I agree, anyone who says otherwise should probs be ignored. And only mechanics carry over, not game knowledge.

Because BW was a harder game the top pros have a training regiment that is similar to professional sports. Look around at the SC2 teams now... aside from Slayers and a few other korean teams none of them have regular coaches (ESPECIALLY FOREIGNERS).
I get the vibe that if you stay in Korean houses you are forced to practice, since thats why many Korean players say they leave. Foreigners: It's not their fault. They didn't have this in BW either. Also, to my understanding neither game can be played to the tip top level of skill by any human, so regardless of the training regimen "similar to professional sports", I feel those truly dedicated to either game cannot be surpassed by simply doing a hardcore training regimen.

LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
January 28 2012 17:03 GMT
#4814
On January 29 2012 01:37 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 23:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:
It's funny how people address the elephant in the room argument using MVP to contradict it when in fact, MVP is just proving the idea of the elephant in the room along with many other ex-BW players. LOL


It's funny that you haven't read the OP (can't blame you though, it's as awful as the rest of this thread which you just contributed to.) The OP states that MVP is one of those "fake competitors" and that if "any of the 300 BW pros" were to switch mvp would be dominated by them because he is now an SC2 player and was bad in BW. So no, MVP is not part of the elephant, because according to the OP people who switched to SC2 early on don't count as BW players because they were "bad at BW." Next time please actually read before posting, it makes you look like slightly less of a fanatic.



Well, when they both switched over, MVP was certainly playing better than Forgg. So if MVP doesn't "count", then using Forgg as a way to prove/disaprove the elephant doesn't really work.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
Bippzy
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1466 Posts
January 28 2012 17:04 GMT
#4815
On January 29 2012 01:58 Seraphone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 23:05 Choboo wrote:
Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?


ROFL at Football not having a high skill ceiling? Are you insane? Football has a near infinite skill ceiling way, way higher than Starcraft.


-_- I don't like football's skill ceiling. It's like body natural potential plus training plus teamwork plus intelligence, which all adds up to unmeasurable. Besides the fact that it's a team sport, which makes it like watching COD for me. Starcraft and Soccer both have skill in repudiating the enemy's greed(greed or bad team arrangement), playing reactively, and they both have an ideal position one wants to be in(late game comps or ideal scoring situations.). I'd say they are about the same/
LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK LEENOCK
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 28 2012 17:17 GMT
#4816
On January 29 2012 02:03 1Eris1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 01:37 hunts wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:
It's funny how people address the elephant in the room argument using MVP to contradict it when in fact, MVP is just proving the idea of the elephant in the room along with many other ex-BW players. LOL


It's funny that you haven't read the OP (can't blame you though, it's as awful as the rest of this thread which you just contributed to.) The OP states that MVP is one of those "fake competitors" and that if "any of the 300 BW pros" were to switch mvp would be dominated by them because he is now an SC2 player and was bad in BW. So no, MVP is not part of the elephant, because according to the OP people who switched to SC2 early on don't count as BW players because they were "bad at BW." Next time please actually read before posting, it makes you look like slightly less of a fanatic.



Well, when they both switched over, MVP was certainly playing better than Forgg. So if MVP doesn't "count", then using Forgg as a way to prove/disaprove the elephant doesn't really work.


Now try reading the OP and realizing how funny you sound.
"You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset."
Well forgg has accomplished more than mvp so he should be dominating right? owait... jk... code A. I await your next "clever" and uninformed argument as you madly mash f5 to see this reply
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Seraphone
Profile Joined January 2012
United Kingdom1219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 17:18:30
January 28 2012 17:17 GMT
#4817
On January 29 2012 02:04 Bippzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 01:58 Seraphone wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:05 Choboo wrote:
Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?


ROFL at Football not having a high skill ceiling? Are you insane? Football has a near infinite skill ceiling way, way higher than Starcraft.


-_- I don't like football's skill ceiling. It's like body natural potential plus training plus teamwork plus intelligence, which all adds up to unmeasurable. Besides the fact that it's a team sport, which makes it like watching COD for me. Starcraft and Soccer both have skill in repudiating the enemy's greed(greed or bad team arrangement), playing reactively, and they both have an ideal position one wants to be in(late game comps or ideal scoring situations.). I'd say they are about the same/


They are not even close. Football just has a way, way higher skill ceiling in every way.

Take Messi, the undisputed current best player in the world and in the minds of many the greatest of all time. Messi picks up the ball around 30-50 times a game, of those he turns around 2 of those in goals for himself or his team mates on average per match, and he is the absolute best there is. The majority of attacking players are well under doing that even once a game on average.

Unless you are able to always score from every realistic position on the field, always pick out the perfect pass with the perfect weight and height on the ball, always make the correct decision on where to run, when to commit to a tackle when to make your run to beat the offside trap etc.. you are not playing at full capacity and aren't at the skill cap. Messi is not even close to managing this, he is absolutely nowhere near and yet he is the best in the world.

In Starcraft you are limited by your resources and the capabilities of your units which is such an insanely tighter restriction. The number of potential successful things you can do is far lower and the ease at which you can do them is far greater.

At best you could argue Starcraft is a more strategical game but that's incredibly debatable not to mention it's way harder to strategise when you're reliant on a team and not just yourself. The mechanical skill of executing what Lionel Messi does on a football field is far, far harder than anything Flash will ever do with a keyboard.

There is no justification at all for suggesting Starcraft has a higher skill ceiling. It's a fucking ridiculous suggestion, completely brainless.
Mvp, Nestea, Leenock, MC, Oz, Jjakji!
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
January 28 2012 17:26 GMT
#4818
On January 29 2012 02:17 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 02:03 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 01:37 hunts wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:
It's funny how people address the elephant in the room argument using MVP to contradict it when in fact, MVP is just proving the idea of the elephant in the room along with many other ex-BW players. LOL


It's funny that you haven't read the OP (can't blame you though, it's as awful as the rest of this thread which you just contributed to.) The OP states that MVP is one of those "fake competitors" and that if "any of the 300 BW pros" were to switch mvp would be dominated by them because he is now an SC2 player and was bad in BW. So no, MVP is not part of the elephant, because according to the OP people who switched to SC2 early on don't count as BW players because they were "bad at BW." Next time please actually read before posting, it makes you look like slightly less of a fanatic.



Well, when they both switched over, MVP was certainly playing better than Forgg. So if MVP doesn't "count", then using Forgg as a way to prove/disaprove the elephant doesn't really work.


Now try reading the OP and realizing how funny you sound.
"You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset."
Well forgg has accomplished more than mvp so he should be dominating right? owait... jk... code A. I await your next "clever" and uninformed argument as you madly mash f5 to see this reply



Wtf are you talking about? Did you even read what I had said?

When MVP switched over, he was already a better player than Forgg. Forgg has been slowing down for sometime. Just because he had won a Starleague 2 years back does not automatically mean he was going to be amazing two years later. It's the exact same thing with Boxer, Nada, July, etc., who were amazing once but by the time they switched over they were mediocre, if no downright terrible, in comparison to the current S class/high end A players.

And how does the OP have anything to do with it? He wrote the OP when Forgg was still technically playing BW... But guess what! When Forgg switched over he wasn't even an A team level player anymore. I don't know if there are hundreds of players like MVP in BW (at the same skill level when he switched) but they're certainly dozens of them.
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
TolEranceNA
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada434 Posts
January 28 2012 17:27 GMT
#4819
On January 29 2012 02:17 Seraphone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 02:04 Bippzy wrote:
On January 29 2012 01:58 Seraphone wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:05 Choboo wrote:
Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?


ROFL at Football not having a high skill ceiling? Are you insane? Football has a near infinite skill ceiling way, way higher than Starcraft.


-_- I don't like football's skill ceiling. It's like body natural potential plus training plus teamwork plus intelligence, which all adds up to unmeasurable. Besides the fact that it's a team sport, which makes it like watching COD for me. Starcraft and Soccer both have skill in repudiating the enemy's greed(greed or bad team arrangement), playing reactively, and they both have an ideal position one wants to be in(late game comps or ideal scoring situations.). I'd say they are about the same/


They are not even close. Football just has a way, way higher skill ceiling in every way.

Take Messi, the undisputed current best player in the world and in the minds of many the greatest of all time. Messi picks up the ball around 30-50 times a game, of those he turns around 2 of those in goals for himself or his team mates on average per match, and he is the absolute best there is. The majority of attacking players are well under doing that even once a game on average.

Unless you are able to always score from every realistic position on the field, always pick out the perfect pass with the perfect weight and height on the ball, always make the correct decision on where to run, when to commit to a tackle when to make your run to beat the offside trap etc.. you are not playing at full capacity and aren't at the skill cap. Messi is not even close to managing this, he is absolutely nowhere near and yet he is the best in the world.

In Starcraft you are limited by your resources and the capabilities of your units which is such an insanely tighter restriction. The number of potential successful things you can do is far lower and the ease at which you can do them is far greater.

At best you could argue Starcraft is a more strategical game but that's incredibly debatable not to mention it's way harder to strategise when you're reliant on a team and not just yourself. The mechanical skill of executing what Lionel Messi does on a football field is far, far harder than anything Flash will ever do with a keyboard.

There is no justification at all for suggesting Starcraft has a higher skill ceiling. It's a fucking ridiculous suggestion, completely brainless.


Except comparing a team game's skill ceiling to the skill ceiling of Starcraft is way more brainless? Skill ceiling can not be measured quantitatively, then why are we comparing skill ceilings between radically different games? It make more sense if we compare sc2 to sc:bw since they are similar in concept...
Arotsis:"Nestea, what do you think about Zerg?" Nestea:"...Sad."
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 28 2012 17:36 GMT
#4820
On January 29 2012 02:26 1Eris1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 02:17 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 02:03 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 01:37 hunts wrote:
On January 28 2012 23:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:
It's funny how people address the elephant in the room argument using MVP to contradict it when in fact, MVP is just proving the idea of the elephant in the room along with many other ex-BW players. LOL


It's funny that you haven't read the OP (can't blame you though, it's as awful as the rest of this thread which you just contributed to.) The OP states that MVP is one of those "fake competitors" and that if "any of the 300 BW pros" were to switch mvp would be dominated by them because he is now an SC2 player and was bad in BW. So no, MVP is not part of the elephant, because according to the OP people who switched to SC2 early on don't count as BW players because they were "bad at BW." Next time please actually read before posting, it makes you look like slightly less of a fanatic.



Well, when they both switched over, MVP was certainly playing better than Forgg. So if MVP doesn't "count", then using Forgg as a way to prove/disaprove the elephant doesn't really work.


Now try reading the OP and realizing how funny you sound.
"You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset."
Well forgg has accomplished more than mvp so he should be dominating right? owait... jk... code A. I await your next "clever" and uninformed argument as you madly mash f5 to see this reply



Wtf are you talking about? Did you even read what I had said?

When MVP switched over, he was already a better player than Forgg. Forgg has been slowing down for sometime. Just because he had won a Starleague 2 years back does not automatically mean he was going to be amazing two years later. It's the exact same thing with Boxer, Nada, July, etc., who were amazing once but by the time they switched over they were mediocre, if no downright terrible, in comparison to the current S class/high end A players.

And how does the OP have anything to do with it? He wrote the OP when Forgg was still technically playing BW... But guess what! When Forgg switched over he wasn't even an A team level player anymore. I don't know if there are hundreds of players like MVP in BW (at the same skill level when he switched) but they're certainly dozens of them.


But every time forgg won a game the elephant was "proved" according to all the imbeciles in this thread, so surely forgg must be awesome! Just because he's getting his ass handed to him by the actual SC2 players now doesn't mean all you BW fanatics have to disown him and shit on him, when he was your knight in shining armor when he was beating code A players. And all this started with someone bumping this thread every time forgg won a game vs some bad code A player, so I guess now it will continue every time he gets his ass handed to him.
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