The Elephant in the Room - Page 241

On January 28 2012 23:12 Choboo wrote:

Sure, but Barcelona isn't winning every Champion's league are they? Maybe that's more because of the team aspect of things though

On January 28 2012 23:42 Choboo wrote:

That sounds exactly like SC2 to me, maybe low skill-ceiling was the wrong word but volotileness is good so more players can win and not just the same player winning every tournament

On January 28 2012 23:59 elt wrote:


Football is hardly volatile. Shifts only happen every 3-4 years depending on how players come and go, mature or retire. There's an equivalent to the TBLS in football, except that it's just bigger. Barcelona, Real Madrid; the previous years we had the 'Top Four' in England who looked nigh-untouchable; for the longest time Bayern Munich dominated everything in Germany etc etc The same teams in football always winning the same tournaments is a massive complaint about football. Look at the English Premier League. I think we're approaching 20 seasons, and there have only been 4 winners of which one team have won 12 seasons. I point to La Liga and ask if you remember a time when a winner wasn't Barca or Real. That's hardly volatility.

I agree some volatility is good, but too much makes the competition a joke. I started responding because of your comment about football more than anything else though; I follow SC2 much more than BW and I think the tangent you're going off is more SC2 v BW rather than the merits of BW progamers.

On January 29 2012 00:04 Steveling wrote:
Can we drop this already.
For the 100th time, it's not the game, it's the players. If Flash with his current work ethic switches to sc2 he will be good.
If MMA with his current drive switches to bw he will be good. The end.

*If someone's gonna say that mma was in bw already and he wasn't that good you need to put your brain to work for a bit.

On January 28 2012 23:00 Dodgin wrote:


Your post does not really address my points but I will respond anyway.

MVP was an A-teamer back in 2010, he has grown as a player since then and during his year of dominance over the sc2 scene starting with GSL 2011 January up until this point. He is not the same person the BW fans will remember. Every month the top tier of sc2 players widen the gap between them and the lesser players as people who follow the GSL know very well.

MVP has had all the time from when he switched to sc2 to now to be as good as he is. He started out being one of the best players in the world because sc2 was so new and the established sc2 pros we have today were not something that existed back then in terms of skill level. His BW experience shined through in the early days of the game. Make no mistake had it not been for his continued determination to be the best and keep practicing every day, he would not still, a year or so later be considered the best there is. ( I don't want to start an argument about MMA vs MVP in skill, I am fans of them both let's keep that for a different thread )

Look at July and Nada. They are not even close to the top of sc2 players right now, because they stopped practicing as much as the other guys.

As far as your second point goes ForGG does indeed have potential. But he is not exactly sweeping the floor with the current sc2 scene as predicted, for one reason or another.

Let's just throw a random current BW A-teamer into the mix and say they switched over when MVP did. Let's say that Jangbi had followed MVP's path from the start and trained every day just as he has. In my opinion he would be at the top as well. But the chances of that happening now and having them catch up quickly enough to compete are rather low as MVP has had all this time to perfect his game in SC2. Unless some of the " rumors " are true and a really good BW player has been practicing sc2 full time for a while now.

On January 28 2012 23:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:
It's funny how people address the elephant in the room argument using MVP to contradict it when in fact, MVP is just proving the idea of the elephant in the room along with many other ex-BW players. LOL

On January 28 2012 16:56 The KY wrote:
Now please; no one bump Elephant in the Room.

On January 28 2012 23:05 Choboo wrote:
Is a low skill-ceiling really that bad? I mean will the game really be more successful if ONE player wins EVERY competition? I mean soccer doesn't have that high of a skill ceiling and you can cheer on any team and they can win almost any match. Isn't that better for ESPORTS?

On January 28 2012 20:52 cydial wrote:
I wish that people who play SC2 would at least try to play BW before saying that, "It's a different game, therefore it doesn't carry over". Actually... it does.

I agree, anyone who says otherwise should probs be ignored. And only mechanics carry over, not game knowledge.

Because BW was a harder game the top pros have a training regiment that is similar to professional sports. Look around at the SC2 teams now... aside from Slayers and a few other korean teams none of them have regular coaches (ESPECIALLY FOREIGNERS).
I get the vibe that if you stay in Korean houses you are forced to practice, since thats why many Korean players say they leave. Foreigners: It's not their fault. They didn't have this in BW either. Also, to my understanding neither game can be played to the tip top level of skill by any human, so regardless of the training regimen "similar to professional sports", I feel those truly dedicated to either game cannot be surpassed by simply doing a hardcore training regimen.

On January 29 2012 01:37 hunts wrote:


It's funny that you haven't read the OP (can't blame you though, it's as awful as the rest of this thread which you just contributed to.) The OP states that MVP is one of those "fake competitors" and that if "any of the 300 BW pros" were to switch mvp would be dominated by them because he is now an SC2 player and was bad in BW. So no, MVP is not part of the elephant, because according to the OP people who switched to SC2 early on don't count as BW players because they were "bad at BW." Next time please actually read before posting, it makes you look like slightly less of a fanatic.

On January 29 2012 01:58 Seraphone wrote:


ROFL at Football not having a high skill ceiling? Are you insane? Football has a near infinite skill ceiling way, way higher than Starcraft.

On January 29 2012 02:03 1Eris1 wrote:



Well, when they both switched over, MVP was certainly playing better than Forgg. So if MVP doesn't "count", then using Forgg as a way to prove/disaprove the elephant doesn't really work.

On January 29 2012 02:04 Bippzy wrote:


-_- I don't like football's skill ceiling. It's like body natural potential plus training plus teamwork plus intelligence, which all adds up to unmeasurable. Besides the fact that it's a team sport, which makes it like watching COD for me. Starcraft and Soccer both have skill in repudiating the enemy's greed(greed or bad team arrangement), playing reactively, and they both have an ideal position one wants to be in(late game comps or ideal scoring situations.). I'd say they are about the same/

On January 29 2012 02:17 hunts wrote:


Now try reading the OP and realizing how funny you sound.
"You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset."
Well forgg has accomplished more than mvp so he should be dominating right? owait... jk... code A. I await your next "clever" and uninformed argument as you madly mash f5 to see this reply

On January 29 2012 02:17 Seraphone wrote:


They are not even close. Football just has a way, way higher skill ceiling in every way.

Take Messi, the undisputed current best player in the world and in the minds of many the greatest of all time. Messi picks up the ball around 30-50 times a game, of those he turns around 2 of those in goals for himself or his team mates on average per match, and he is the absolute best there is. The majority of attacking players are well under doing that even once a game on average.

Unless you are able to always score from every realistic position on the field, always pick out the perfect pass with the perfect weight and height on the ball, always make the correct decision on where to run, when to commit to a tackle when to make your run to beat the offside trap etc.. you are not playing at full capacity and aren't at the skill cap. Messi is not even close to managing this, he is absolutely nowhere near and yet he is the best in the world.

In Starcraft you are limited by your resources and the capabilities of your units which is such an insanely tighter restriction. The number of potential successful things you can do is far lower and the ease at which you can do them is far greater.

At best you could argue Starcraft is a more strategical game but that's incredibly debatable not to mention it's way harder to strategise when you're reliant on a team and not just yourself. The mechanical skill of executing what Lionel Messi does on a football field is far, far harder than anything Flash will ever do with a keyboard.

There is no justification at all for suggesting Starcraft has a higher skill ceiling. It's a fucking ridiculous suggestion, completely brainless.

On January 29 2012 02:26 1Eris1 wrote:



Wtf are you talking about? Did you even read what I had said?

When MVP switched over, he was already a better player than Forgg. Forgg has been slowing down for sometime. Just because he had won a Starleague 2 years back does not automatically mean he was going to be amazing two years later. It's the exact same thing with Boxer, Nada, July, etc., who were amazing once but by the time they switched over they were mediocre, if no downright terrible, in comparison to the current S class/high end A players.

And how does the OP have anything to do with it? He wrote the OP when Forgg was still technically playing BW... But guess what! When Forgg switched over he wasn't even an A team level player anymore. I don't know if there are hundreds of players like MVP in BW (at the same skill level when he switched) but they're certainly dozens of them.