• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:07
CEST 19:07
KST 02:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)11Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho4Code S RO8 Preview: ByuN, Rogue, herO, Cure5[ASL19] Ro4 Preview: Storied Rivals7
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results162025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14Code S Season 1 - Classic & GuMiho advance to RO4 (2025)4[BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET7
StarCraft 2
General
Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results Replay cast herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) Power Rank: October 2018
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series DreamHack Dallas 2025 announced (May 23-25) [GSL 2025] Code S Season 1 - RO4 and Grand Finals PIG STY FESTIVAL 6.0! (28 Apr - 4 May) Monday Nights Weeklies
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
who is JiriKara /Cipisek/ from CZ BW General Discussion Where is effort ? ASL 19 Tickets for foreigners BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues The Casual Games of the Week Thread [ASL19] Semifinal A [USBL Spring 2025] Groups cast
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games? Grand Theft Auto VI Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Narcissists In Gaming: Why T…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7351 users

The Elephant in the Room - Page 243

Forum Index > Final Edits
6513 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 241 242 243 244 245 326 Next
NoobSkills
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1597 Posts
January 28 2012 19:14 GMT
#4841
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


The thread meant current S Class BW players Flash Jaedong Bisu ect the top 20 or so of BW. But ForGG was still practicing quite a bit, though he wasn't playing at the skill level of his MSL victory which was a mixture of timings and outside the box play which got him an early lead in most of his games. Though I love how everyone seems to be living and dying by ForGG when there are better players who have switched over (at least better at the time of switch over).
rysecake
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2632 Posts
January 28 2012 19:23 GMT
#4842
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


i lol at this post which insults flash as a player.
The Notorious Winkles
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 19:27:04
January 28 2012 19:26 GMT
#4843
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 28 2012 19:29 GMT
#4844
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
BritWrangler
Profile Joined October 2011
United Kingdom120 Posts
January 28 2012 19:31 GMT
#4845
On January 29 2012 04:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.

This guy has to be trolling
Linwelin
Profile Joined March 2011
Ireland7554 Posts
January 28 2012 19:36 GMT
#4846
On January 29 2012 04:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.


I think you're the one that needs to quit raging and calm down
Fuck Razor and Death Prophet
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
January 28 2012 19:38 GMT
#4847
On January 29 2012 04:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.



HAHAHAHA

good laff thanks
▲ ▲ ▲
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 28 2012 19:39 GMT
#4848
On January 29 2012 04:36 Linwelin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:29 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.


I think you're the one that needs to quit raging and calm down


I'm quite calm. I'm also quite amused by the amount of blind BW fanboyism. Honestly makes me lose a lot of faith in TL mods for letting this thread exist. In the Sc2 section where a bunch of blind BW fanboys just bash the game because they don't want to face the fact that it is usurping their precious BW. If an SC2 version of this was made in the BW section it would instanntly be deleted and the OP banned. It's quite funny.


User was warned for this post
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
1Eris1
Profile Joined September 2010
United States5797 Posts
January 28 2012 19:39 GMT
#4849
On January 29 2012 04:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.



Yeah, if Flash continued to play BW for the next 4 years, and in 2015 he was going like 4-20 or something and then he switched to SC2, I probably wouldn't expect him to do much...Which is exactly the case with someone like Forgg. In 2008, you could make a case for him being S class (for a while at least), but by 2010 when he retired he was doing worse than someone like MVP
But if he switched right now? Your damn right I would expect him to be dominant...

And I'm getting mad? Okay "bro"
Known Aliases: Tyragon, Valeric ~MSL Forever, SKT is truly the Superior KT!
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 19:44:43
January 28 2012 19:40 GMT
#4850
On January 29 2012 03:09 Chunhyang wrote:
All it will take is the mild success of one BW player, and the pro-elephant people will say that they're right. It will eventually happen. It's inevitable. That's why I classify it as a coward's opinion.


You mean the mild success of BW player(s), MVP, Leenock, MMA, MC, etc.



On January 29 2012 04:39 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:36 Linwelin wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:29 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
[quote]

Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.


I think you're the one that needs to quit raging and calm down


I'm quite calm. I'm also quite amused by the amount of blind BW fanboyism. Honestly makes me lose a lot of faith in TL mods for letting this thread exist. In the Sc2 section where a bunch of blind BW fanboys just bash the game because they don't want to face the fact that it is usurping their precious BW. If an SC2 version of this was made in the BW section it would instanntly be deleted and the OP banned. It's quite funny.


Nah, there are a ton of SC2 threads (mostly wanting to switch from SC2 to BW, or SC2 BW comparisons), and the responses are actually more mature for the most part. They never get deleted.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=306678

The responses in the BW forum are a lot more mature in general, as expected of an older generation.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
DKR
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom622 Posts
January 28 2012 19:56 GMT
#4851
It's nice to find that the trolls still have a watering hole from which to feed.

But in all seriousness, this influx of top level players from BW, as has been said, isn't as worrying as once it was. In May it could have ripped the current scene apart. But the game has moved on a lot since then and with the exception of the Flashs and Jaedongs of this world, the Pro BW scene would probably merge into the existing structure of the game quite nicely, some bursting into the scene, others greatly skilled but failing to get through the Code-B qualifiers.

Granted it would be a large influx of players, but that only brings in more fans, more demand for competition and greater growth.
"1 base. Cheese man." - MKP. "[MVP] is not stylistic, his style is winning, which is the style you want to have." - Artosis
dsousa
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1363 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-28 20:13:24
January 28 2012 20:09 GMT
#4852
On January 29 2012 01:54 The KY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 16:56 The KY wrote:
Now please; no one bump Elephant in the Room.


Show nested quote +
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





God damn you.


Ya, that really set off a storm of posts to this thread... I didn't see the thread where someone said NOT to bump this thread, I did it independently :D

Its good the battle lines have been drawn clearly, when an elephant does finally crush the SC2 scene I'm sure we'll hear about it, so I think its only fair that when Zenex_Treme crushed two (former) elephants we should also take note.

Nada and ForGG are old though, good for the OP that the rest of the BW scene are immune to the passage of time.
cydial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States750 Posts
January 28 2012 20:29 GMT
#4853
On January 29 2012 04:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:26 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"


Wow, like honestly wow...

Forgg was a top level player in 2008. Not in 2010/11 when he switched/retired. What don't you freaking understand about that?

Also the fact that you think that would apply to Flash, wow


And the fact that you don't think it would apply to flash, wow. Guess what bro? There's no proof either way, and you're getting mad about someone making the same type of assumptions you've been making. My advice? Quit raging, calm down, and relax. Or try to, you're having a hard time doing this whole being calm thing. But try to, at least untill the next Bw player switches and everyone makes a big deal of them everytime they win a game, and then goes "oh well they were bad" when they get stomped.


I don't think you've ever watched Brood War regularly like the MSL or OSL matches to fully appreciate what forGG did to defeat flash and jaedong....


Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
January 28 2012 20:31 GMT
#4854
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.

it's pretty clear that you've never played BW from the rest of your posts, but okay:

last time he won was in code A? yeah, where he went undefeated on his first try while making people like Polt look like amateurs. Then he loses against Leenock and MC in Code S, one of whom is a previous finalist and the other of whom has won multiple GSLs. And even with all that, it's not like he got crushed; he put up competitive games.

i really think you underestimate how good people like flash/bisu/jaedong are. i'm not even a bw fanboy and i can admit that once they get used to the game, their sheer ability to multitask and play at a consistently high APM is going to make them leagues ahead of more or less anybody around right now.
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
January 28 2012 20:34 GMT
#4855
On January 29 2012 04:14 NoobSkills wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


The thread meant current S Class BW players Flash Jaedong Bisu ect the top 20 or so of BW. But ForGG was still practicing quite a bit, though he wasn't playing at the skill level of his MSL victory which was a mixture of timings and outside the box play which got him an early lead in most of his games. Though I love how everyone seems to be living and dying by ForGG when there are better players who have switched over (at least better at the time of switch over).


That isnt what the writer of the article meant. He actually meant that there were about 200 better players who with "2 months of practice could own up the current scene"
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 28 2012 20:37 GMT
#4856
On January 29 2012 05:31 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.

it's pretty clear that you've never played BW from the rest of your posts, but okay:

last time he won was in code A? yeah, where he went undefeated on his first try while making people like Polt look like amateurs. Then he loses against Leenock and MC in Code S, one of whom is a previous finalist and the other of whom has won multiple GSLs. And even with all that, it's not like he got crushed; he put up competitive games.

i really think you underestimate how good people like flash/bisu/jaedong are. i'm not even a bw fanboy and i can admit that once they get used to the game, their sheer ability to multitask and play at a consistently high APM is going to make them leagues ahead of more or less anybody around right now.


What does me playing BW have to do with it? If you want to bring skill into it, you've been diamond forever and will forever remain that way. And I've played SC1 since it first came out way before BW. Granted I never played 1v1, I did UMS and team games since I was still a kid, but that's beside the point. lol "leagues ahead of more or less anybody around right now" If mechanics were the deciding factor Idra would've won a GSL by now since he has by far the best mechannics out of any zerg player in the world right now.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
January 28 2012 20:38 GMT
#4857
On January 29 2012 05:37 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 05:31 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.

it's pretty clear that you've never played BW from the rest of your posts, but okay:

last time he won was in code A? yeah, where he went undefeated on his first try while making people like Polt look like amateurs. Then he loses against Leenock and MC in Code S, one of whom is a previous finalist and the other of whom has won multiple GSLs. And even with all that, it's not like he got crushed; he put up competitive games.

i really think you underestimate how good people like flash/bisu/jaedong are. i'm not even a bw fanboy and i can admit that once they get used to the game, their sheer ability to multitask and play at a consistently high APM is going to make them leagues ahead of more or less anybody around right now.


What does me playing BW have to do with it? If you want to bring skill into it, you've been diamond forever and will forever remain that way. And I've played SC1 since it first came out way before BW. Granted I never played 1v1, I did UMS and team games since I was still a kid, but that's beside the point. lol "leagues ahead of more or less anybody around right now" If mechanics were the deciding factor Idra would've won a GSL by now since he has by far the best mechannics out of any zerg player in the world right now.

hit masters today so i guess the joke's on you. idra doesn't have the best...wtf am i reading?
MercilessMonkey
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada150 Posts
January 28 2012 20:39 GMT
#4858
On January 29 2012 05:34 Adreme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:14 NoobSkills wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


The thread meant current S Class BW players Flash Jaedong Bisu ect the top 20 or so of BW. But ForGG was still practicing quite a bit, though he wasn't playing at the skill level of his MSL victory which was a mixture of timings and outside the box play which got him an early lead in most of his games. Though I love how everyone seems to be living and dying by ForGG when there are better players who have switched over (at least better at the time of switch over).


That isnt what the writer of the article meant. He actually meant that there were about 200 better players who with "2 months of practice could own up the current scene"


I'm glad someone finally brought this up. OP was explicitly not talking only about the best 3 BW players.

On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games.


Linwelin
Profile Joined March 2011
Ireland7554 Posts
January 28 2012 20:40 GMT
#4859
On January 29 2012 05:37 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 05:31 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.

it's pretty clear that you've never played BW from the rest of your posts, but okay:

last time he won was in code A? yeah, where he went undefeated on his first try while making people like Polt look like amateurs. Then he loses against Leenock and MC in Code S, one of whom is a previous finalist and the other of whom has won multiple GSLs. And even with all that, it's not like he got crushed; he put up competitive games.

i really think you underestimate how good people like flash/bisu/jaedong are. i'm not even a bw fanboy and i can admit that once they get used to the game, their sheer ability to multitask and play at a consistently high APM is going to make them leagues ahead of more or less anybody around right now.


What does me playing BW have to do with it? If you want to bring skill into it, you've been diamond forever and will forever remain that way. And I've played SC1 since it first came out way before BW. Granted I never played 1v1, I did UMS and team games since I was still a kid, but that's beside the point. lol "leagues ahead of more or less anybody around right now" If mechanics were the deciding factor Idra would've won a GSL by now since he has by far the best mechannics out of any zerg player in the world right now.


IdrA doesn't have the best mechanics of any Zerg player, what are you talking about...
Fuck Razor and Death Prophet
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
January 28 2012 20:42 GMT
#4860
On January 29 2012 04:13 BritWrangler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 29 2012 04:09 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 04:01 1Eris1 wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:58 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:53 Shiori wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:46 hunts wrote:
On January 29 2012 03:26 dekarp wrote:
On January 28 2012 17:48 dsousa wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenex_Treme just beat BW legend Nada and oGsForGG back-to-back.





Did you know that SuperNova was a BW pro? He cleaned up ZeNEX and is in Code S RO16, please add that to the spoiler. I love it when people take individual, isolated results and apply it to this thread.

Like when everyone wanted to take forgg's 6-0 w/l in Code A and say he was the GOAT and was going to destroy everyone in Code S blah blahblah.

With that being said, in general, CURRENT BW A-teamers would probably mop the floor with non-GSL finalist caliber players.


lol no they won't they'll get owned just like forgg has beenn so far, get real.

i'd hardly say forgg is getting owned.


Last time he won was in code A, yup he's REALLY tearing up the SC2 scene lol. The rest won't do much better.


And as I said before, comparing Forgg to current A-Teamers is stupid. A closer comparison would be MVP


I can see it all now. A year from now flash switches over to SC2, proceeds to get roflstomped, 1eris1: "Comparing flash to current A-teamers is stupid, he never achieved anything, i now disown him as a star because he didn't dominate the Sc2 scene like the awful thread predicted"

You really have no idea exactly how good flash is, do you? Have you ever even watched him play?


Judging from the comment, I'm surprised you bother asking.

Flash has a working ethic and raw talent a currently utterly and completely unmatched by any Starcraft II progamer. I would love to see Flash getting stomped if he (against all odds) switched over to SCII, but that wouldn't happen for a really, really long time. His dedication is simply unmatched. I'm sorry, but no one Starcraft II pro would, in the current situation, be able to beat Flash if he had some time to practice. In fact, I would wager he could kill a bunch of top-notch players after less than a month.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Prev 1 241 242 243 244 245 326 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 54m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 813
MindelVK 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 4256
Shuttle 1956
Jaedong 1781
Soulkey 564
Snow 518
firebathero 373
Rush 150
BeSt 143
Dewaltoss 131
JYJ88
[ Show more ]
ToSsGirL 35
sSak 28
sorry 25
Terrorterran 19
soO 19
IntoTheRainbow 15
Backho 14
Shine 11
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
Dota 2
Gorgc10361
qojqva2436
Dendi669
XcaliburYe182
Counter-Strike
olofmeister7666
fl0m4628
ceh9417
Other Games
FrodaN1153
hiko1121
Beastyqt589
Mlord411
Lowko322
crisheroes226
ArmadaUGS165
Livibee90
Trikslyr82
QueenE57
febbydoto1
Organizations
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv115
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 72
• LUISG 19
• Hinosc 8
• Adnapsc2 5
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV397
League of Legends
• Nemesis4800
• Jankos1337
• TFBlade799
Other Games
• imaqtpie366
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
6h 54m
The PondCast
16h 54m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Road to EWC
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
SC Evo League
3 days
Road to EWC
3 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Heroes 10 EU
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.