• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:18
CEST 19:18
KST 02:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection5Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June0Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th151Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection My starcraft 2 changes SCFusion - WoL, HotS & LotV Build Order Optimizer TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes?
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event FlaSh's ASL S21 Finals Review 14k games analyzed: Cross Spawn Nexus first good? Tesagi Viewer - A new era of replay watching BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Path of Exile ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Dating: How's your luck? Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How cold is too cold to be outdoors?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5995 users

The Elephant: a Probability Exercise

Blogs > Primadog
Post a Reply
Primadog
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-20 23:34:35
January 20 2012 23:33 GMT
#1
We evaluate how fast can the GSL absorb a mass BW transition,
[image loading]
as proposed by "The Elephant in the Room.
"


I. Introduction

One of the most controversial editorial published on TeamLiquid.net, "The Elephant" hit a sore spot within the StarCraft fanbase. "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce" instantly become a galvanizing meme and divisive force between SC2 and BW fans, generating hundreds of pages of debate within weeks. Even now, the topic resurfaces each time new ammunition appears for either side - the spectacular GSL debut of (T)fOrGG, FXOBoss' vague blogs, or forGG's poor Code S run. It will probably never run its course until the foretold flood finally hit.

We will make no attempt to settle the score in this post.

Instead, this is an attempt to see how well the newer, more flexible GSL format can cope with the predicted sudden talent influx. Has the GSL made sufficient incremental steps to accommodate a rapidly shifting talent pool? Will 2012 be the year were Code S properly includes the Top-32 players of the world? How fast will ex-BW pros elbow out the pretenders?


II. 2011 GSL Format

To judge finesse, we must first have something to compare with.

Until late 2011, the GSL tournament was under a completely different format. Inflexible, the format's most glaring flaw was limiting player shifts between Code S and Code A (with one Foreigner seed) to only 8 each season. This resulted in players often lingering in Code S beyond their welcome and difficulty for rising stars to compete for the big prize. This fault would later force a complete revamp in tournament format by GSL November. We will use the last format before the revamp - GSL October (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October#Information ) - as the control comparison sample.

If "The Elephant" is true, then all ex-BW pros belong in Code S. Suppose 20 ex-BW pros transitioned suddenly ( with 20 the typical size of a BW team). How many season will it take to fit them all in there?

For simplicity's sake, let's assume all ex-BW pros are far more skilled than the existing talent pool of SC2, that they win 100% of their sets against anyone but each other. Let's also assume that the brackets distributed them in such a way that ex-BW pros only meet at the latest round possible. Finally, let's assume that they won all the Code A spots available from the Preliminaries.

In that case, for the following GSL season:
  • 12 will qualify for Code [image loading], occupying all available spots; 8 will have to requalify.
  • All 12 advanced to ro16;
  • 8 advances to ro8, 4 eliminated by each other;
  • 1 wins Code [image loading] and earns Code [image loading] status.
  • The other 7 advance to Up-N-Down;
  • 6 wins their respective group and earns Code [image loading].

Thus, every season a maximum of 7 ex-BW pros can advance into Code S. 20 players, then, will take 3 GSL season, under the 2011 format.


III. 2012 Format; 100% set winrate; 20 players

How does the same conditions compare under the 2012 GSL format (details http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1 )?

The answer is surprisingly simple! Under the new format, 20 players can qualify for Code [image loading] each season, and up to 24 Code [image loading] spots are up for grasp. Therefore, it's theoretically possible all 20 ex-BW players to advance into Code [image loading], in a single season!

How much more efficient is the format? A 2012 season lasts 8 weeks compares to 2011's 5-week season. Since the 2011 format will take 3 seasons to complete "The Elephant" transition, the new format accelerates the transition by an entire 7 weeks!
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]

IV. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 20 Players

Of course, even for ex-BW pros, sweeping all sets would be rather difficult and unrealistic. Luckly, we have (T)fOrGG to thank for a single available datapoint in how well a top ex-BW pro can do. According to TLPD, he has a match winrate just shy of 60% and won 7 of his 12 GSL matches. A 58% match winrate is equivalent to 62% set winrate (all relevant matches are bo3's), based on the following formula:

+ Show Spoiler [set winrate] +
Each match-up is a bo3 with game 3 not played if the results are already determined (WW or LL). The possible winning permutations then are WLW, WW, LWW, with the possible losing permutations of a bo3 are WLL, LL, LWL. Projected record R is determined using expected value E for a win and 1-E:
Projected Record = expected value of WLW or WW or LWW 
R = E * (1-E) * E + E * E + (1-E) * E * E
R = 2 * E * E * (1-E) + E * E


For simplicity's sake, let's simply assume that all the ex-BW pros have a 60% set winrate. Furthermore, they also have a 60% success rate for advancing through group stages. We will also give them the benefit of the doubt by rounding up with remainders. For simplicity's sake, let's also assume they all advance through the preliminaries.

Given this, how many will secure Code [image loading] status in the first season? In the first season:
  • 20 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 12 players {20 * 60%} advances to the ro32, 8 drop out;
  • 8 players {12 * 60%} advances to ro24, 4 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 5 players { 8 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 3 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 5 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].


Thus, next season will start with 10 players are in Code [image loading] and 10 in Code [image loading]. Due to the convoluted format, the flowchart becomes a bit more complicated, thus I'll simply leave my notes in the spoiler. Season 2 will end with 14 players in Code [image loading] ; season 3 with 15[image loading] , and so forth.

+ Show Spoiler [Case 3 notes] +
[image loading]
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]


Two observations from this result:
  1. Ex-BW pros no longer sweeps in a single season. It will take longer than 2012 for all the ex-BW pros to join Code [image loading].
  2. As the talent pool improve each season, even ex-BW pros will find it harder to make Code [image loading].


V. 2012 Format; 60% Set Winrate; 6 Players

What if the assumption that a mass transition is wrong? What if only a small number of BW pros change game? Let's assume only 6 BW pros made the jump:
  • 6 players qualify for Code [image loading] through preliminaries into the ro48;
  • 4 players {6* 60%} advances to the ro32, 2 drop out;
  • 3 players {4 * 60%} advances to ro24, 1 moves into Up-N-Down;
  • 2 players {3 * 60%} won ro24 and earned Code [image loading], 1 moves into Up-N-Down.
  • 2 players won their Up-N-Down group and earned Code [image loading].

A funny thing happens next season, with 4 players in Code [image loading] and 2 in Code [image loading], all 6 advances to Code [image loading].

+ Show Spoiler [Case 4 notes] +
[image loading]
  • 2011 format: Week-0 12[image loading] | Week-6 7[image loading] 13[image loading] | Week-11 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-16 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 20[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60%: Week-0 20[image loading] | Week-9 10[image loading] 10[image loading] | Week-17 14[image loading] 6[image loading] | Week-25 15[image loading] 5[image loading]
  • 2012 format & 60% & 6 players: Week-0 6[image loading] | Week-9 4[image loading] 2[image loading] | Week-17 6[image loading]



VI. Conclusion

This exercise was never an attempt to answer "The Elephant", but we did never-the-less found some interesting results. Under the 2012 format, GSL has become much more adaptive to a talent pool in flux. As long as the talents coming in are not all superman (yet high caliber like (T)fOrGG), we can expect an orderly and efficient induction into Code S. However, this orderly induction only happens up to a transition of a certain size. Above which, a progressively stronger talent pool will naturally make it harder for even ex-BW pros to admit into Code S.

Instead, some of our current talents would remain in place of the ex-BW pros. Math says so.

***
Thank God and gunrun.
Wohmfg
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1292 Posts
January 21 2012 00:00 GMT
#2
Interesting read.

As much as I hate the demise of BW, it is always very interesting to see how the BW players fare in the world of SC2. forgg was a good player but it will be exciting when the great and legendary players get to test themselves in SC2.
BW4Life!
Caladbolg
Profile Joined March 2011
2855 Posts
January 21 2012 01:37 GMT
#3
Hyun is kinda sneaking into things as well. Might even do better than ForGG. Especially since ForGG had been playing for quite some time and Hyun only recently picked things up (and they're already comparable, skill-wise).
"I don't like the word prodigy at all. To me prodigy sounds like a person who was 'gifted' all these things rather than a person who earned all these talents by hard training... I must train harder to reach my goal." - Flash
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
16:00
FSL s11 TeamLeague: ASH vs ST
Freeedom35
Liquipedia
Grudge Match
16:00
Best of 7
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm
Discussion
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
15:00
Season Finals: Group Stage 1
Serral1980
uThermal1582
TaKeTV 360
Classic296
mouzHeroMarine263
SteadfastSC243
SHIN 50
SKillous24
Shameless19
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Serral 1980
uThermal 1582
Classic 296
mouzHeroMarine 263
SteadfastSC 243
ProTech81
BRAT_OK 50
trigger 41
SKillous 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26562
Calm 7833
EffOrt 923
Hyuk 559
ggaemo 297
sorry 35
yabsab 25
Rock 24
IntoTheRainbow 19
GoRush 18
[ Show more ]
Sexy 5
Light 0
Dota 2
Gorgc7267
Counter-Strike
fl0m7918
byalli561
zeus288
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King111
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor405
MindelVK6
Other Games
gofns21504
tarik_tv9625
Grubby2163
FrodaN2144
Mlord473
Dendi463
B2W.Neo332
KnowMe233
Hui .97
SHIN 50
OptimusSC212
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV931
gamesdonequick384
StarCraft 2
angryscii 1
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 4
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach45
• Azhi_Dahaki24
• Michael_bg 15
• FirePhoenix4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota240
League of Legends
• Jankos1926
Other Games
• WagamamaTV291
• Shiphtur140
• tFFMrPink 10
Upcoming Events
OSC
3h 42m
MaxPax vs YoungYakov
Krystianer vs Shameless
GgMaChine vs Creature
LetaleX vs MiniZergUA
ReBellioN vs TBD
ArT vs HiGhDrA
Nicoract vs Azura
GSL
14h 42m
herO vs Rogue
Maru vs Cure
Patches Events
19h 42m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
21h 42m
BSL
1d 1h
Bonyth vs Dewalt
OSC
1d 6h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Classic vs Lambo
Clem vs Maru
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.