EPTThat was my initial response when I read the thread a long time ago too, the wording is especially combative and it's hard to see past that to get to the meat of the argument.
The Elephant in the Room - Page 176
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Zinjil
United States166 Posts
That was my initial response when I read the thread a long time ago too, the wording is especially combative and it's hard to see past that to get to the meat of the argument. | ||
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Danzo
2820 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:15 VPCursed wrote: derp derp no good BW players switched over so SC2 players are shit and BW players are gods Derp. really narrow minded and elitist point of view, It's threads like this that hurt e-sports.. why even try to undermine the skill level of SC2 players and the SC2 e-sports scene. User was warned for this post It's comments like these that hurt esports. Please read the article. | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
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jj33
802 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:21 p1cKLes wrote: Brutal, but true. MVP is an amazing player there’s no doubt about it, and I don’t think anyone should take that away from him, but someone like Flash is literally in a league of his own. With his work ethic matched with his talent, it wouldn’t take Flash very long to start dominating the scene and taking SC2 to new heights. I drool at the thought of flash/bisu/jaedong in sc2. flash is only 20 yrs old? bisu/jd im sure a bit older than him but still plenty of time. | ||
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FaZe
Canada472 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:15 VPCursed wrote: derp derp no good BW players switched over so SC2 players are shit and BW players are gods Derp. really narrow minded and elitist point of view, It's threads like this that hurt e-sports.. why even try to undermine the skill level of SC2 players and the SC2 e-sports scene. Sorry VPCursed, Your feelings aren't ESports. Sometimes the truth hurts. | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:28 Archvil3 wrote: I remember how provocing this article was when it first came out. Instead of just presenting facts mr Intrique and co. did everything they could to insult the proplayers and the SC2 fans. That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar. I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now. Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu. | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:23 jj33 wrote: I drool at the thought of flash/bisu/jaedong in sc2. flash is only 20 yrs old? bisu/jd im sure a bit older than him but still plenty of time. Me too! Those would EPIC games. | ||
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jj33
802 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:31 Big J wrote: I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now. Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu. boxer, nada, and julyzerg when they came to sc2 were way past their prime and would get absolutely slaughtered by the current top guys in bw. not even close. they would get folded like a lawnchair | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:31 Big J wrote: I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now. Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu. Right, it would only be like that if the invasion actually happens. I personally think it may happen around HoTS release but that is a completely different debate so I will rephrase. If it happens then 6 months after the event(I love talking about it as an event like an alien invasion  ) the top 20 of the world will have more current BW players then current SC2 players in it. It will not be pure BW elites though.I would say, and I will do my best not to insult them, that Boxer and co. are way past their prime though and despite their great history and achievements they do not stand up to the current BW elite. The current BW elite is going to have a way bigger impact on the scene. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
 Holdddd ~! | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:38 jj33 wrote: boxer, nada, and julyzerg when they came to sc2 were way past their prime and would get absolutely slaughtered by the current top guys in bw. not even close. they would get folded like a lawnchair well, the question is, why aren't they not in their prime anymore? -) Because the game has developed? So how would this be a less radical change then switching a game? -) Because they are too old? NaDa is 27, July 24. I wouldn't call that too old! (even Boxer is only 31, which is still a good age in a lot of sports) -) Because they are burned out? Probably not. They could do something else than gaming then... So why should Flash keep his prime when/if he switched over? (not saying he doesn't... but repeat that question for every SC:BW top player and you'll see a decent amount of people "being out of their prime") | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
1. it´s a new game so it will take some time( as already said hots release might be a nice opportunity to switch over because it will even out the playfield for the "newbies" again - calling bw legends that is kind of funny :D) and 2. though there are some very valid points that there are simply amazing characters with talents + amazing work ethic in korea generally - let´s wait and see if this unstoppable invasion will take place and nullify everything that was before, because that is exactly what the title implies in sort of a bw elitist fashion.(me coming from wc3 and being a scrub in both actually amuses this rivalry ^^) either way we - the fans - will win in any case because of more competition. | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
On November 30 2011 02:32 Wren wrote: I think I understand what you mean. Problem is that if talent is supposed to mean things, that when narrowed down to a certain level are somewhat set in stone, then commitment and work ethics are probably talents as well.Talent implies that you were born with something, but work ethic is a decision and a commitment that anyone is capable of making. HuK and NaNiwa have work ethic in spades and we are already seeing that translate to incredible quality. That they are non-BW-playing foreigners serves to further undercut the opinion of this editorial that BW pros will dominate sc2 because they played BW. Guess it's relevant if we want admire more specific parts of peoples abilities like their amazing work ethic or strategical thinking instead of just going with that they are great at sc1 or sc2.. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
2. increased talent in the field means they become relatively worse 3. evolution of gameplay no longer favors their playing style and keep in mind, flash is the one most responsible for the progress of terran play since iloveoov. but when you want to talk about boxer etc, you don't even have to mention flash. any A team or upper level b team prospect is better than them on pure mechanical dominance alone. | ||
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bobthebo
101 Posts
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On November 30 2011 00:59 Almonjin wrote: A year from now, there will be some lively editorials dedicated to analyzing why these unbeatable giants have failed to achieve success in SC2. They will arrive at a list of factors overlooked by the OP - including the age and financial status of the BW pros, shifts in the availability of high-level salaries for SC2 players, overall changes in the political economy of the scene itself, and of course - the differences between BW and SC2 that we don't yet fully understand. My opinion is obviously unpopular on this subject but SC2 has more strategic potential than BW because the bar for perfection in mechanics is so much lower. I've never been terribly impressed by the ability to compensate for ridiculously antiquated pathfinding and design. The high level strategy/or "mind games," the chess element of Starcraft 2 will become increasingly pronounced as overall mechanics improve and players develop more mental breathing room with which to be devious. The reason Brood War was NOT superior to SC2 in terms of design (although more cultivated than the currently adolescent SC2) was precisely the intensity of the mechanics involved - to the point where high level strategy really only emerged from a handful of prodigies practicing seventy hours a week. This isn't admirable, from the standpoint of psychology its mindless. Training your brain to hold 9-10 tasks instead of the average seven is interesting but not when it is a requirement to even enter the higher echelons of play. We acknowledge that some Sc2 players are more "devious" or possessed of skill at mind games and high level strategy, but have poorer mechanics. This is great. It means that strength in another mental skillset can be brought to bear to win games and create more diversity. A more conventional player with superior mechanics can still win, easily, but could also lose. This is what gave rise to the cult of practice in BW and I think Sc2 teams have, rightly, mainly eschewed this defunct model in favor of a more circumspect practice structure in which players do more than grind game processes into their subconscious - exploring tactical approaches in an individual or small group setting along with the general milieu of the ladder. The truth that the BW fetishists won't admit is that mechanics isn't, and isn't going to be enough to win in Sc2. It is the mixture of mechanics with strategic capabilities that I find impressive and fun to watch about BW. Day[9] said it best, you have to have the dexterity of a classically trained pianist and the mind of a chess grand master. I've reread your post a few times and I'm not sure what the purpose of it was. Okay, I get it, you don't like BW. However, you seem to be insinuating that in BW strategic capability pale's in such a way next to mechanical ability that it can't compensate against someone with superior mechanics. You are wrong. As of now those "devious" players you speak of exist in BW, and can be found in a large cluster on ACE right now. As a whole that entire team is likely mechanically inferior to many of the other players on other teams. But they win. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=289679 Perhaps a bit early in the season (definitely early) but it makes a good point about teams without mechanical monsters on it, but very savvy players. I guess my rebuttal is, what? How and where are you getting your intimate knowledge of BW from? I don't understand what your point is, so I've made my attempt to respond to what I perceive to be your point. | ||
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jj33
802 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:56 oneofthem wrote: 1. they got old and became slower 2. increased talent in the field means they become relatively worse 3. evolution of gameplay no longer favors their playing style and keep in mind, flash is the one most responsible for the progress of terran play since iloveoov. but when you want to talk about boxer etc, you don't even have to mention flash. any A team or upper level b team prospect is better than them on pure mechanical dominance alone. Just to add to your last part, boxer even in his prime was never really known for his mechanics. It was always a weak spot for him, for pro standards at least. | ||
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DruidzHistory
Sweden231 Posts
I have to agree | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
Flash and Jaedong are prime examples of what can be achieved. Their raw "power" didn't just manifest itself out of nowhere. Everyone who followed both of these players saw a steady curve. Bonjwas are not born that way, it is a process that we as the viewers catch glimps of by realising how much stronger their mental and physical game got over time. In Flash's case it was scary because he matured with such a noticeable pace. The best of the best are not just great at winning, they grow by winning titles. Which is something not many players who touched a trophy were able to do. The peak of a lot of good players career was winning a title. Immediately followed by loosing momentum in sometimes catastrophic manner. We will see this in Starcraft 2. Believe me I watched BW for many years thinking that since so much is "known" there is not much to raise the level with. And time and time again players emerged and introduced a new aspect. Players with a will not only to win once or twice. But all the time. Nomatter what workload they have to put on themselves. Nomatter any circumstances. | ||
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