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On November 30 2011 05:03 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 00:59 Almonjin wrote:
A year from now, there will be some lively editorials dedicated to analyzing why these unbeatable giants have failed to achieve success in SC2. They will arrive at a list of factors overlooked by the OP - including the age and financial status of the BW pros, shifts in the availability of high-level salaries for SC2 players, overall changes in the political economy of the scene itself, and of course - the differences between BW and SC2 that we don't yet fully understand.
My opinion is obviously unpopular on this subject but SC2 has more strategic potential than BW because the bar for perfection in mechanics is so much lower. I've never been terribly impressed by the ability to compensate for ridiculously antiquated pathfinding and design. The high level strategy/or "mind games," the chess element of Starcraft 2 will become increasingly pronounced as overall mechanics improve and players develop more mental breathing room with which to be devious. The reason Brood War was NOT superior to SC2 in terms of design (although more cultivated than the currently adolescent SC2) was precisely the intensity of the mechanics involved - to the point where high level strategy really only emerged from a handful of prodigies practicing seventy hours a week. This isn't admirable, from the standpoint of psychology its mindless. Training your brain to hold 9-10 tasks instead of the average seven is interesting but not when it is a requirement to even enter the higher echelons of play. We acknowledge that some Sc2 players are more "devious" or possessed of skill at mind games and high level strategy, but have poorer mechanics. This is great. It means that strength in another mental skillset can be brought to bear to win games and create more diversity. A more conventional player with superior mechanics can still win, easily, but could also lose. This is what gave rise to the cult of practice in BW and I think Sc2 teams have, rightly, mainly eschewed this defunct model in favor of a more circumspect practice structure in which players do more than grind game processes into their subconscious - exploring tactical approaches in an individual or small group setting along with the general milieu of the ladder.
The truth that the BW fetishists won't admit is that mechanics isn't, and isn't going to be enough to win in Sc2. It is the mixture of mechanics with strategic capabilities that I find impressive and fun to watch about BW. Day[9] said it best, you have to have the dexterity of a classically trained pianist and the mind of a chess grand master. I've reread your post a few times and I'm not sure what the purpose of it was. Okay, I get it, you don't like BW. However, you seem to be insinuating that in BW strategic capability pale's in such a way next to mechanical ability that it can't compensate against someone with superior mechanics. You are wrong. As of now those "devious" players you speak of exist in BW, and can be found in a large cluster on ACE right now. As a whole that entire team is likely mechanically inferior to many of the other players on other teams. But they win. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=289679Perhaps a bit early in the season (definitely early) but it makes a good point about teams without mechanical monsters on it, but very savvy players. I guess my rebuttal is, what? How and where are you getting your intimate knowledge of BW from? I don't understand what your point is, so I've made my attempt to respond to what I perceive to be your point.
Comparing individual leagues to proleague is nonsense. After your post I'm not sure you read the article...
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even the twitter world wants all of you to read this masterpiece =)
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 30 2011 05:26 zul wrote:even the twitter world wants all of you to read this masterpiece =) + Show Spoiler +
Unfortunately they are talking about Patrice O'Neal's "Elephant in the Room"
We can always dream though!
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Wow, former BW pro that has been playing for over a year beats some guy that was really good months ago but since then has borderline completely fallen to take his second GSL win ever off and Hot_Bid thinks this is relevant again......
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and I quote-
"yes it is too volatile and its not going to change
blizzards gone halfway between sc1 and chess and done a shitty job of it
sc1 had limited scouting and information but you could still hold a high winrate because the game was so difficult in terms of execution that it was possible to outplay your opponent in a million different ways. mbs, smartcasting, improved unit ai has changed that. we havent hit the skill ceiling yet, but it's low enough that theres not nearly as much differentiation between players already and thats only going to get worse as everyone improves.
people will say now its more of a pure strategy game, and that would be ok. except we still have limited information. a strategy game where its really hard to know what your opponent is doing, especially in the early game where everything is most fragile, fucking sucks. it guarantees theres always going to be a big guessing/luck factor in games."
any takers?
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On November 30 2011 05:34 slappy wrote:and I quote- Show nested quote +"yes it is too volatile and its not going to change
blizzards gone halfway between sc1 and chess and done a shitty job of it
sc1 had limited scouting and information but you could still hold a high winrate because the game was so difficult in terms of execution that it was possible to outplay your opponent in a million different ways. mbs, smartcasting, improved unit ai has changed that. we havent hit the skill ceiling yet, but it's low enough that theres not nearly as much differentiation between players already and thats only going to get worse as everyone improves.
people will say now its more of a pure strategy game, and that would be ok. except we still have limited information. a strategy game where its really hard to know what your opponent is doing, especially in the early game where everything is most fragile, fucking sucks. it guarantees theres always going to be a big guessing/luck factor in games." any takers?
To me it seems like there's more slumping going on than good players actually being beat due to lack of scouting. Also there's the difference of SC2 being global and people travel more or less 24/7 compared to how it was in BW where everything was in SK and people could prepare well before their matches.
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On November 30 2011 05:34 slappy wrote:and I quote- Show nested quote +"yes it is too volatile and its not going to change
blizzards gone halfway between sc1 and chess and done a shitty job of it
sc1 had limited scouting and information but you could still hold a high winrate because the game was so difficult in terms of execution that it was possible to outplay your opponent in a million different ways. mbs, smartcasting, improved unit ai has changed that. we havent hit the skill ceiling yet, but it's low enough that theres not nearly as much differentiation between players already and thats only going to get worse as everyone improves.
people will say now its more of a pure strategy game, and that would be ok. except we still have limited information. a strategy game where its really hard to know what your opponent is doing, especially in the early game where everything is most fragile, fucking sucks. it guarantees theres always going to be a big guessing/luck factor in games." any takers?
Looks like something Jinro would have said, just seems like his phrasing and verbiage to me. Or were you looking for someone to try to refute it?
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Question is: Will this article be bumped again if Fin loses and does not make it to Code S? Only time will tell.
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On November 30 2011 04:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 04:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I remember how provocing this article was when it first came out. Instead of just presenting facts mr Intrique and co. did everything they could to insult the proplayers and the SC2 fans.
That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar. I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now. Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu.
Hahahah.. Bisu and Boxer are obviously on the same level skillwise. try again.
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On November 30 2011 05:42 grs wrote:
Question is: Will this article be bumped again if Fin loses and does not make it to Code S? Only time will tell.
The thing I found most interesting when ForGG moved over, and this has happened for every player that has switched games as of yet, is that BW followers will kind of hedge their bets, say "oh yeah he was good for a time, but not TOP top tier, he might not dominate" but when the new guys start winning it's the same rhetoric that got this thread published and bumped again months later. Makes me feel like it's far less than 300 potential players to dominate the scene, and instead more like 1-2 dozen, with their 250 mid-tier brethren in tow.
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On November 30 2011 05:41 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 05:34 slappy wrote:and I quote- "yes it is too volatile and its not going to change
blizzards gone halfway between sc1 and chess and done a shitty job of it
sc1 had limited scouting and information but you could still hold a high winrate because the game was so difficult in terms of execution that it was possible to outplay your opponent in a million different ways. mbs, smartcasting, improved unit ai has changed that. we havent hit the skill ceiling yet, but it's low enough that theres not nearly as much differentiation between players already and thats only going to get worse as everyone improves.
people will say now its more of a pure strategy game, and that would be ok. except we still have limited information. a strategy game where its really hard to know what your opponent is doing, especially in the early game where everything is most fragile, fucking sucks. it guarantees theres always going to be a big guessing/luck factor in games." any takers? Looks like something Jinro would have said, just seems like his phrasing and verbiage to me. Or were you looking for someone to try to refute it?
Pulled that quote from an Idra interview. Was hoping someone who thought they knew everything about BW and SC2 would try to refute it so I could laugh at them. Although Idra has a temper, I have uber respect for him having lived in the CJ house during the BW days and now being a top sc2 foreigner
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On November 30 2011 04:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 04:38 jj33 wrote:On November 30 2011 04:31 Big J wrote:On November 30 2011 04:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I remember how provocing this article was when it first came out. Instead of just presenting facts mr Intrique and co. did everything they could to insult the proplayers and the SC2 fans.
That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar. I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now. Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu. boxer, nada, and julyzerg when they came to sc2 were way past their prime and would get absolutely slaughtered by the current top guys in bw. not even close. they would get folded like a lawnchair well, the question is, why aren't they not in their prime anymore? -) Because the game has developed? So how would this be a less radical change then switching a game? -) Because they are too old? NaDa is 27, July 24. I wouldn't call that too old! (even Boxer is only 31, which is still a good age in a lot of sports) -) Because they are burned out? Probably not. They could do something else than gaming then... So why should Flash keep his prime when/if he switched over? (not saying he doesn't... but repeat that question for every SC:BW top player and you'll see a decent amount of people "being out of their prime")
Oh that's a simple enough question to anser... Because if he switches right now, Flash would carry with him to SC2, the same mechanics, hard work and mental strength that took him to new heights in the most difficult-to-master RTS game of all times.
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On November 30 2011 00:59 Almonjin wrote:
A year from now, there will be some lively editorials dedicated to analyzing why these unbeatable giants have failed to achieve success in SC2. They will arrive at a list of factors overlooked by the OP - including the age and financial status of the BW pros, shifts in the availability of high-level salaries for SC2 players, overall changes in the political economy of the scene itself, and of course - the differences between BW and SC2 that we don't yet fully understand.
My opinion is obviously unpopular on this subject but SC2 has more strategic potential than BW because the bar for perfection in mechanics is so much lower. I've never been terribly impressed by the ability to compensate for ridiculously antiquated pathfinding and design. The high level strategy/or "mind games," the chess element of Starcraft 2 will become increasingly pronounced as overall mechanics improve and players develop more mental breathing room with which to be devious. The reason Brood War was NOT superior to SC2 in terms of design (although more cultivated than the currently adolescent SC2) was precisely the intensity of the mechanics involved - to the point where high level strategy really only emerged from a handful of prodigies practicing seventy hours a week. This isn't admirable, from the standpoint of psychology its mindless. Training your brain to hold 9-10 tasks instead of the average seven is interesting but not when it is a requirement to even enter the higher echelons of play. We acknowledge that some Sc2 players are more "devious" or possessed of skill at mind games and high level strategy, but have poorer mechanics. This is great. It means that strength in another mental skillset can be brought to bear to win games and create more diversity. A more conventional player with superior mechanics can still win, easily, but could also lose. This is what gave rise to the cult of practice in BW and I think Sc2 teams have, rightly, mainly eschewed this defunct model in favor of a more circumspect practice structure in which players do more than grind game processes into their subconscious - exploring tactical approaches in an individual or small group setting along with the general milieu of the ladder.
The truth that the BW fetishists won't admit is that mechanics isn't, and isn't going to be enough to win in Sc2.
This is an incredibly uneducated argument.
In a RTS high mechanical ceilings result in more decision making rather than less. That's a huge part of why Broodwar is such a hard game to play. Yes, the mechanics are hard, but it's not a game that's won by mechanics, and the human limitation of mechanical skill is responsible for a lot of strategic depth.
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On November 30 2011 05:49 slappy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 05:41 Zinjil wrote:On November 30 2011 05:34 slappy wrote:and I quote- "yes it is too volatile and its not going to change
blizzards gone halfway between sc1 and chess and done a shitty job of it
sc1 had limited scouting and information but you could still hold a high winrate because the game was so difficult in terms of execution that it was possible to outplay your opponent in a million different ways. mbs, smartcasting, improved unit ai has changed that. we havent hit the skill ceiling yet, but it's low enough that theres not nearly as much differentiation between players already and thats only going to get worse as everyone improves.
people will say now its more of a pure strategy game, and that would be ok. except we still have limited information. a strategy game where its really hard to know what your opponent is doing, especially in the early game where everything is most fragile, fucking sucks. it guarantees theres always going to be a big guessing/luck factor in games." any takers? Looks like something Jinro would have said, just seems like his phrasing and verbiage to me. Or were you looking for someone to try to refute it? Pulled that quote from an Idra interview. Was hoping someone who thought they knew everything about BW and SC2 would try to refute it so I could laugh at them. Although Idra has a temper, I have uber respect for him having lived in the CJ house during the BW days and now being a top sc2 foreigner
I don't feel like the quote has held up perfectly, there is of course less separation between the very top tier of players and the middle of the pack in sc2 as compared to brood war, but that could just as easily be attributable to the volatility of a game still in its infancy as tremendously flawed game design.
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On November 30 2011 05:48 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 05:42 grs wrote:
Question is: Will this article be bumped again if Fin loses and does not make it to Code S? Only time will tell. The thing I found most interesting when ForGG moved over, and this has happened for every player that has switched games as of yet, is that BW followers will kind of hedge their bets, say "oh yeah he was good for a time, but not TOP top tier, he might not dominate" but when the new guys start winning it's the same rhetoric that got this thread published and bumped again months later. Makes me feel like it's far less than 300 potential players to dominate the scene, and instead more like 1-2 dozen, with their 250 mid-tier brethren in tow.
I think Artosis said this in a SotG episode too... Something like "the far top players like Bisu, Jaedong and Flash will make their impact, but most other BroodWar players are only copycats."
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What will SC2 look like after it has another 5 years to develop? In reality SC2 has plenty of time to catch up to BW and surpass it.
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On November 30 2011 05:51 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 04:49 Big J wrote:On November 30 2011 04:38 jj33 wrote:On November 30 2011 04:31 Big J wrote:On November 30 2011 04:28 Archvil3 wrote:
I remember how provocing this article was when it first came out. Instead of just presenting facts mr Intrique and co. did everything they could to insult the proplayers and the SC2 fans.
That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar. I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now. Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu. boxer, nada, and julyzerg when they came to sc2 were way past their prime and would get absolutely slaughtered by the current top guys in bw. not even close. they would get folded like a lawnchair well, the question is, why aren't they not in their prime anymore? -) Because the game has developed? So how would this be a less radical change then switching a game? -) Because they are too old? NaDa is 27, July 24. I wouldn't call that too old! (even Boxer is only 31, which is still a good age in a lot of sports) -) Because they are burned out? Probably not. They could do something else than gaming then... So why should Flash keep his prime when/if he switched over? (not saying he doesn't... but repeat that question for every SC:BW top player and you'll see a decent amount of people "being out of their prime") Oh that's a simple enough question to anser... Because if he switches right now, Flash would carry with him to SC2, the same mechanics, hard work and mental strength that took him to new heights in the most difficult-to-master RTS game of all times.
you mean like when bisu redefined ZvP and savior kept on crushing every Protoss? wait a minute...
Could happen to Flash as well... or not...
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On November 30 2011 05:48 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 05:42 grs wrote:
Question is: Will this article be bumped again if Fin loses and does not make it to Code S? Only time will tell. The thing I found most interesting when ForGG moved over, and this has happened for every player that has switched games as of yet, is that BW followers will kind of hedge their bets, say "oh yeah he was good for a time, but not TOP top tier, he might not dominate" but when the new guys start winning it's the same rhetoric that got this thread published and bumped again months later. Makes me feel like it's far less than 300 potential players to dominate the scene, and instead more like 1-2 dozen, with their 250 mid-tier brethren in tow.
Best post I've read so far. <3
That actually provoked thought and made me realise something, instead of just making me sigh or nod in agreement. Excellent post.
I have no doubts now that fOrGG will be successful - his play vs Polt did look really damn good. But it wasn't magically superior or even completely different: it was completely standard Terran play, done very well. There was no sparkle to it. Of course, if a truly S class player came along, like Bisu or Flash, we would find out very quickly what that sparkle would look like; that the S-class players would dominate I have no doubts.
I guess we'll find out at some point, with a lot of Korean interviews now revealing that most, if not all, BW pros are at least partly practising SC2.
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I just really hope ForGG rides MMM to unprecedented 2-base dominance so maybe Blizzard will abandon their requirement that bio be viable in TvT (and as a result, very strong in all matchups).
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Funny thing is, if the Korean pro scene and competition is a farce, what does that make a team like TL? Team Liquid should apologize to the community for being such a joke and sad excuse for a well paid team imo. How can they justify running a team and pay salaries when all its players are so incredibly and unbelievably terribad?
Compared to the Korean teams and players you might ask?
No, no stupid, compared to how good Flash and Jaedong would have been had they been playing SC2!
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In fact, I think TLAF should pay back a few bucks to each and every forum member. It's only right.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uvzyw.jpg)
