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Wawa
United States215 Posts
Its kinda weird that people are already assuming that Flash and JD will be moving to SC2 after BW. They already have a ton of money and at the top of the game. Wouldn't you want to retire while you're on top rather than a well respected veteran in a new game? | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On November 30 2011 02:54 price wrote: I'm surprised this thread was revisited. It looks so silly now. Just think of all the great stuff that happened between then and now. Why? MVP is the best import from BW and is the best player in SC2. ForGG looks like hes going to pubstomp the current scene once he goes into full swing. On November 30 2011 02:55 raf3776 wrote: If people read the lastest flash interview, he even said he wasnt born with natural talent and it was just tons of hard work. his other sense of picking off drops etc, are just luck and gut feeling from tons of playing and he said even the most "talented" people and the considered genius's like bisu work their asses off. So i dont think natural talent is going even a topic of discussion in this as hard work > talent. That interview should be taken with a grain of salt. Flash was banned from using a computer till middle-school, he then begged his parents and bet that he could become a progamer in 1 month or else he would quit starcraft forever, no normal person could make the finals of Courage after 1 month of playing. Even though he started very late, he is the youngest player to win a Starleague. He also trains the hardest out of all the players though, he will train till his fingers literally start bleeding (Stork interview), and sleep 3 hours a day. | ||
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jj33
802 Posts
On November 30 2011 02:55 raf3776 wrote: If people read the lastest flash interview, he even said he wasnt born with natural talent and it was just tons of hard work. his other sense of picking off drops etc, are just luck and gut feeling from tons of playing and he said even the most "talented" people and the considered genius's like bisu work their asses off. So i dont think natural talent is going even a topic of discussion in this as hard work > talent. Of course he'll say it's hard work. what's he going to say "I'm so talented none of you can touch me" and I absolutely agree, hard work is very very important. but so is talent. I never said it's just talent, its both. | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On November 30 2011 02:55 raf3776 wrote: If people read the lastest flash interview, he even said he wasnt born with natural talent and it was just tons of hard work. his other sense of picking off drops etc, are just luck and gut feeling from tons of playing and he said even the most "talented" people and the considered genius's like bisu work their asses off. So i dont think natural talent is going even a topic of discussion in this as hard work > talent. In fact, I always thought labeling someone as talented is unfair to them. Most people at the top of what they do, including people like FlasH/JD/Bisu, did a shit ton of work to get there. To undermine that as just "oh, don't worry, that's talent!" is unfair. Way unfair. I know if I spend 14 hours a day doing something to be really good at it, I wouldn't want someone brushing it up as something I was born with. | ||
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
On November 30 2011 02:55 raf3776 wrote: If people read the lastest flash interview, he even said he wasnt born with natural talent and it was just tons of hard work. his other sense of picking off drops etc, are just luck and gut feeling from tons of playing and he said even the most "talented" people and the considered genius's like bisu work their asses off. So i dont think natural talent is going even a topic of discussion in this as hard work > talent. No natural talent? lol yeah... i have no doubt in my mind that hes a hard worker, but he has natural talent, to say otherwise would be dumb. | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
On November 30 2011 03:01 mprs wrote: In fact, I always thought labeling someone as talented is unfair to them. Most people at the top of what they do, including people like FlasH/JD/Bisu, did a shit ton of work to get there. To undermine that as just "oh, don't worry, that's talent!" is unfair. Way unfair. I know if I spend 14 hours a day doing something to be really good at it, I wouldn't want someone brushing it up as something I was born with. Agreed! Wise words! | ||
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7596 Posts
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Zinjil
United States166 Posts
On November 30 2011 03:26 Slardar wrote: How are people debating between natural talent and worth ethic?! The people at the top of the game have both working for them, e.g. not everyone can lift 500 pounds even if they trained their hardest. Perhaps if you want to exaggerate and waste 15 years so you can lift "500 pounds", there are external factors, bodily constraints are one. I just struggle sometimes to figure out what "talent" is in a game like starcraft where there are much less rigorous physical barriers to entry than in power lifting or the like. Is it just genetic physical attributes? Is there something about perseverance and work ethic, or tactical thought, or multitasking, that is inherent and untrainable? Or is talent just the application of accumulated training? | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On November 30 2011 03:58 Zinjil wrote: I just struggle sometimes to figure out what "talent" is in a game like starcraft where there are much less rigorous physical barriers to entry than in power lifting or the like. Is it just genetic physical attributes? Is there something about perseverance and work ethic, or tactical thought, or multitasking, that is inherent and untrainable? Or is talent just the application of accumulated training? Tactical thought, ingenuity, the ability to make snap decisions in strange situations etc. I can't believe people are arguing whether or not the best BW pros are talented. Of course they fucking are, they just put a hell of a lot more hours in than most people as well. Stephano is an example of a person who's done really well so far off of pure talent. His practice seems to be minimal, allegedly, anyway. To get an idea of Jaedong, imagine Stephano with about 5 times the work ethic. THAT is what makes a pro great: a combination of practice and talent. | ||
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trias_e
United States520 Posts
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On November 30 2011 03:58 Zinjil wrote: I just struggle sometimes to figure out what "talent" is in a game like starcraft where there are much less rigorous physical barriers to entry than in power lifting or the like. Is it just genetic physical attributes? Is there something about perseverance and work ethic, or tactical thought, or multitasking, that is inherent and untrainable? Or is talent just the application of accumulated training? Talent can be anything. Some people are naturally better at memorizing long strings of numbers, some people naturally understand organic chemistry. Some people are naturally good at multitasking. Most of all though I think what separates the top from the middle is gamesense and mental form. You can definitely see it if you watch bw a lot. All bw guys practice a ton but you'll only see the top 10 or so do things that make you go wtf. Like, maphack comsat scans from flash cause he just somehow KNOWS where that lurker field is, I don't think that you can practice that stuff. Stuff like July double cheesing to destabilize Best and then crushing him in a macro game, not everyone has the balls/mindset to pull that off. To say that starcraft doesn't require talent implies that the best are the ones who practice the most when its fairly obvious that many people practice a ton and never win anything. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On November 30 2011 03:58 Zinjil wrote: I just struggle sometimes to figure out what "talent" is in a game like starcraft where there are much less rigorous physical barriers to entry than in power lifting or the like. Is it just genetic physical attributes? Is there something about perseverance and work ethic, or tactical thought, or multitasking, that is inherent and untrainable? Or is talent just the application of accumulated training? There are baselines, of course. Mental and physical handicaps can severely restrict decision making and/or reactions. Some people must work much harder than others to learn anything, including StarCraft. However, there's no real difference between someone who thinks quickly and reacts properly because it's natural for him/her and the person who thinks quickly and reacts properly because he/she put in the practice necessary. The more "natural" player will likely be faster on the uptake and, if also creative, likely to be a strategic leader, but that advantage is fleeting. EDIT: wow, guess that's a common opinion. ^^ | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
especially NesTea, i heard he went into his code s matchs hung voer from aprtying so hard the night before -.- | ||
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jj33
802 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:07 SeaSwift wrote: Tactical thought, ingenuity, the ability to make snap decisions in strange situations etc. I can't believe people are arguing whether or not the best BW pros are talented. Of course they fucking are, they just put a hell of a lot more hours in than most people as well. Stephano is an example of a person who's done really well so far off of pure talent. His practice seems to be minimal, allegedly, anyway. To get an idea of Jaedong, imagine Stephano with about 5 times the work ethic. THAT is what makes a pro great: a combination of practice and talent. Agreed 100% Stephano sayig he only practices like 4 hrs a day or so, and with his skill, it's obvious that's just alot of talent. Now mix in his talent with a real work schedule and it's a recipe for success. | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
very interesting read. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
really narrow minded and elitist point of view, It's threads like this that hurt e-sports.. why even try to undermine the skill level of SC2 players and the SC2 e-sports scene. User was warned for this post | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
On November 30 2011 04:15 VPCursed wrote: derp derp no good BW players switched over so SC2 players are shit and BW players are gods Derp. really narrow minded and elitist point of view, It's threads like this that hurt e-sports.. why even try to undermine the skill level of SC2 players and the SC2 e-sports scene. you should actually read the OP | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
he actually summarized it | ||
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