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On Waxen Wings - Page 4

Forum Index > Final Edits
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jodogohoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada2533 Posts
February 23 2010 00:47 GMT
#61
Amazing article
Simplistik
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
2173 Posts
February 23 2010 01:01 GMT
#62
But what about Federer?
Dear BW Gods, it IS now autumn, so...
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
February 23 2010 01:03 GMT
#63
On February 23 2010 04:17 WWJDD wrote:
Why is this in Final Edit again? How can this post possibly be awesomer??

And if you want to compare someone in cricket to Flash, look no further than Virender Sehwag. The man scores triple centuries easier than Don Bradman did in his prime. And seemingly nothing can be done to stop him going on a streak.


Hm? It's in final edit because it is awesome.
RIP Aaliyah
EAGER-beaver
Profile Joined March 2004
Canada2799 Posts
February 23 2010 02:46 GMT
#64
Bout time someone quoted simon and garfunkle in one of their articles
Simon and Garfunkel rock my face off
akisa
Profile Joined February 2010
Jamaica98 Posts
February 23 2010 05:10 GMT
#65
Fantastic read.
;-;
Cauld
Profile Joined February 2010
United States350 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 05:46:47
February 23 2010 05:46 GMT
#66
On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find?


Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond.

Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition.

Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example.

Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again.

While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes).

Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose.

Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too.
Alethios
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
New Zealand2765 Posts
February 23 2010 08:50 GMT
#67
On February 23 2010 14:46 Cauld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find?


Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond.

Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition.

Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example.

Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again.

While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes).

Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose.

Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too.


Excellent first post man. Welcome to TeamLiquid!

We could well be seeing a simple stagnation. As you suggested, a further boom could probably be caused if there was a significant development in the way the game is played.

It all comes back to whether factors conspire to increase the level of variation amongst players, then we will likely see an increase in outstanding player frequency.
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
SiDX
Profile Joined July 2009
New Zealand1975 Posts
February 23 2010 09:56 GMT
#68
On February 23 2010 10:01 Simplistik wrote:
But what about Federer?


There will never be another player like him you will see. Everyone is becoming good and eventually everyone will be even.
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 11:51:30
February 23 2010 11:48 GMT
#69
What you say about golf is absolutely ridiculous. You can't throw out its validity because competition is not directly between 2 people. It's usually between a group of people who have established good leads and have to up their games to overwhelm their opponent. Most of the greatest golfing moments have been races between two people to outdo each other, and they are deeply mental affairs. Golf is possibly the most mentally demanding sport in the world and one of the hardest, because you have SO much time to think about your moves and you can't rely on reactions, you have to embrace your doubts and fears or suppress them for freakin' ages.

Manning, Federer and Woods easily put paid to your argument, I don't see what's going on here, sorry. Federer has been an unstoppable machine of death, Woods is simply double the greatness of any of his rivals, Manning accounts for about 50% of his team's win chance. There are greats in every era including ours and including the future in an equal spread. I don't know why you so desire to beat down the present you are living in. Diego Maradona was pretty much as good if not better than Pele. The 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's all have their even spread of sports geniuses, there is no decline imo.

Other than that, I enjoyed the read, even if the ending is fairly saddening. I'm not sure it's dead certain they'll make the switch on the proscene though.

Oh and not to mention Usain Bolt, Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stephen Hendry, who are all modern behemoths. And Phil Taylor of the darts world, literally the best by a country mile.
anotheracc
Profile Joined January 2010
Chile5 Posts
February 23 2010 15:52 GMT
#70
On February 23 2010 14:46 Cauld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find?


Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond.

Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition.

Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example.

Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again.

While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes).

Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose.

Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too.


There are, of course, exceptional players in competetive sports, and you name good examples of them. But I believe the point behind the article is that there is no longer "a" dominant player that you could point out as the absolute leader and master of the sport/game. Competition has gotten so fierce that there is no significant difference between those at the top and those that follow, they can all beat each other and none is assured a victory. Unlike, for example, Roger Federer who is a good example of being "the" player to beat in Tennis.

Soccer fans may agree that non-competitive football leagues, like those in South America, follow an opposite trend. In Chile, Uruguay and Argentina (to some extent), even in Brazil, leagues are dominated constantly by the same "big teams" year after year. Colo-Colo, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Peñarol (though this one has declined as of lately), Nacional, Universidad de Chile, all these teams vastly dominate their countries' leagues. Colo-Colo has won 6 out of the last 8 tournaments, with a total of 29 titles, the follower, Universidad de Chile has only 13, and consider that most of the first division teams in Chile haven't got any. River Plate has 33 argentinian titles, Boca Juniors has 22, other small teams have 1 or none in their first division. Same occurs is Uruguay and Brazil. Even in the international scene the "big teams" dominate, though some smaller teams have won some international titles, it's very rare. Big teams, as big players ("bonjwas"), dominate because there is no competition around them to take their dominance.

All in all, the competition makes the players.

ps: Hope someone likes southamerican football.

Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
February 23 2010 16:51 GMT
#71
Quite an impressive read, and I think a point many people here are missing is, it doesn't matter if there are greats in other sports left. If you say Tiger Woods is a bonjwa and thus the argument is false, one could reply that Golf hasn't reached the pinnacle of its evolution as a competitive sport. (besides who the fuck argues with golf vs sc?)
I truly hope sc2 enjoys a long time of the creative, but I feel like the evolution of sc2 into its pinnacle will take half as long or shorter by comparison to the original starcraft. Replays, analysis of build orders/timings/strats are all things we consider normal now that many in 98' wouldn't have heard of.
Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
DracoVolantus
Profile Joined February 2010
Poland236 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-23 18:05:31
February 23 2010 17:57 GMT
#72
1. Nah, nobody, especially sponsored teams will play sc2 for at least few years, when top players will establish or at least emerge.

2. It's like You were so excited about somebody making "chess 2"

3. More people play and will always play in counter-strike 1.6 than counter-strike: condition zero and Counter-Strike: Source both. Those two games lasted only 1 or 2 WCG's if I still recognize the facts.

4. Fisher was BONJWA, not some stupid run around stick guys, (sorry, no bonus).

cheers

edit:

just read the 'General Forum', please don't ban me
EX CATHEDRA!
Emon_
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
3925 Posts
February 23 2010 23:34 GMT
#73
Thanks for the article. It was a very interesting read. I have to admit it made me sad.

Seeing how consistent KT is now as a team is amazing - although sad knowing that soon their 12h days playing Brood War will come to an end. Sure it will all start anew with Starcraft 2 - but it could very well turn into a Warcraft 3 deal where one incident ruins an entire scene. I just might call it quits with gaming altogether once Brood War goes out of style.
"I know that human beings and fish can coexist peacefully" -GWB ||
Alethios
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
New Zealand2765 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-24 00:01:30
February 23 2010 23:56 GMT
#74
On February 23 2010 20:48 sc4k wrote:
What you say about golf is absolutely ridiculous. You can't throw out its validity because competition is not directly between 2 people. It's usually between a group of people who have established good leads and have to up their games to overwhelm their opponent. Most of the greatest golfing moments have been races between two people to outdo each other, and they are deeply mental affairs. Golf is possibly the most mentally demanding sport in the world and one of the hardest, because you have SO much time to think about your moves and you can't rely on reactions, you have to embrace your doubts and fears or suppress them for freakin' ages.

Manning, Federer and Woods easily put paid to your argument, I don't see what's going on here, sorry. Federer has been an unstoppable machine of death, Woods is simply double the greatness of any of his rivals, Manning accounts for about 50% of his team's win chance. There are greats in every era including ours and including the future in an equal spread. I don't know why you so desire to beat down the present you are living in. Diego Maradona was pretty much as good if not better than Pele. The 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's all have their even spread of sports geniuses, there is no decline imo.

Other than that, I enjoyed the read, even if the ending is fairly saddening. I'm not sure it's dead certain they'll make the switch on the proscene though.

Oh and not to mention Usain Bolt, Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stephen Hendry, who are all modern behemoths. And Phil Taylor of the darts world, literally the best by a country mile.

What you seem to think my argument was:

"Bonjwas don't happen any more, ever."

What my argument actually was:

"Systematic changes in variation lead to changes in the frequency of outstanding players. Some sports obviously allow more scope for reduction in variation to occur, which as a general rule, are the sports i've talked about.

Claiming that my entire my argument is invalid because of some vague handwaving about the mental competition of golfers and how there are still exceptional players around in certain sports is a sure sign you didn't understand what I was trying to say.

Methinks you need to stop tilting at windmills Don Quixote.
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
February 24 2010 00:33 GMT
#75
On February 24 2010 08:56 Alethios wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2010 20:48 sc4k wrote:
What you say about golf is absolutely ridiculous. You can't throw out its validity because competition is not directly between 2 people. It's usually between a group of people who have established good leads and have to up their games to overwhelm their opponent. Most of the greatest golfing moments have been races between two people to outdo each other, and they are deeply mental affairs. Golf is possibly the most mentally demanding sport in the world and one of the hardest, because you have SO much time to think about your moves and you can't rely on reactions, you have to embrace your doubts and fears or suppress them for freakin' ages.

Manning, Federer and Woods easily put paid to your argument, I don't see what's going on here, sorry. Federer has been an unstoppable machine of death, Woods is simply double the greatness of any of his rivals, Manning accounts for about 50% of his team's win chance. There are greats in every era including ours and including the future in an equal spread. I don't know why you so desire to beat down the present you are living in. Diego Maradona was pretty much as good if not better than Pele. The 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's all have their even spread of sports geniuses, there is no decline imo.

Other than that, I enjoyed the read, even if the ending is fairly saddening. I'm not sure it's dead certain they'll make the switch on the proscene though.

Oh and not to mention Usain Bolt, Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stephen Hendry, who are all modern behemoths. And Phil Taylor of the darts world, literally the best by a country mile.


"Systematic changes in variation lead to changes in the frequency of outstanding players. Some sports obviously allow more scope for reduction in variation to occur, which as a general rule, are the sports i've talked about.
.


Ok, I think in your first argument you are essentially saying that we don't see bonjwas anymore in SC because that's how some sports work, eventually the competition gets good enough and people can't dominate clearly. I'm telling you that I think that is complete bollocks. In computer games that may be the case, but not with 95% of proper sports. There could easily be a new Pele or Maradona this decade. There's nothing saying there won't be, or there's any less chance than before.


shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
February 24 2010 02:41 GMT
#76
this article....so good

i completely agree with the analysis that replays rapidly sped up the refinement of starcraft
i guess its a good and bad thing.. : /
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
February 24 2010 07:33 GMT
#77
On February 24 2010 00:52 anotheracc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2010 14:46 Cauld wrote:
On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find?


Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond.

Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition.

Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example.

Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again.

While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes).

Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose.

Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too.


There are, of course, exceptional players in competetive sports, and you name good examples of them. But I believe the point behind the article is that there is no longer "a" dominant player that you could point out as the absolute leader and master of the sport/game. Competition has gotten so fierce that there is no significant difference between those at the top and those that follow, they can all beat each other and none is assured a victory. Unlike, for example, Roger Federer who is a good example of being "the" player to beat in Tennis.

Soccer fans may agree that non-competitive football leagues, like those in South America, follow an opposite trend. In Chile, Uruguay and Argentina (to some extent), even in Brazil, leagues are dominated constantly by the same "big teams" year after year. Colo-Colo, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Peñarol (though this one has declined as of lately), Nacional, Universidad de Chile, all these teams vastly dominate their countries' leagues. Colo-Colo has won 6 out of the last 8 tournaments, with a total of 29 titles, the follower, Universidad de Chile has only 13, and consider that most of the first division teams in Chile haven't got any. River Plate has 33 argentinian titles, Boca Juniors has 22, other small teams have 1 or none in their first division. Same occurs is Uruguay and Brazil. Even in the international scene the "big teams" dominate, though some smaller teams have won some international titles, it's very rare. Big teams, as big players ("bonjwas"), dominate because there is no competition around them to take their dominance.

All in all, the competition makes the players.

ps: Hope someone likes southamerican football.



Actually recently soccer in Brazil has gotten really fierce to the point where very late into the competition its still impossible to know who will win
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
February 24 2010 10:08 GMT
#78
superbly written, great cross referencing, not a lot of "fluff" and a whole lot of content. well done
manner
SoL[9]
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Portugal1370 Posts
February 24 2010 13:23 GMT
#79
Amazing article.
Fantastic job.

Is a new revolution have good things and bad things like everything...
I would like that persons that already play SC2 or even not play but that have "solid" ideas of game could say this:

If SC2 gonna be so hard to "learn" like BW?
Easy to learn but harder to master?
Now that is beta but is probably already song good ideas about Sc2

If theres already a thread about this or similar plz post there i would like to read
Thanks
I Can Fly...
PhilGood2DaY
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany7424 Posts
February 24 2010 13:56 GMT
#80
I love that u realized that with the game getting more and more high skilled its basically bound to die soon..

But I just hope SC 2 is getting gooood =)


amazing article liked it
hatred outlives the hateful
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