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On Waxen Wings
By Alethios
Team Liquid: Final Edits
Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
What’s that you say, Mrs. Robinson
‘Joltin Joe’ has left and gone away?
Much discussion goes on at TeamLiquid regarding the relative strengths of various players. Sometimes the word ‘bonjwa’ is used, much to the consternation of forum veterans. I was recently reading a collection of essays written by the late Steven Jay Gould, an evolutionary biologist, when I struck upon a new way of looking at this entire phenomenon and in doing so, was forced to come to terms with Broodwar's probable demise.
Once, bonjwas were undisputable. The names of  NaDa, BoxeR, iloveoov and  sAviOr will be forever remembered. These players had a fearsome aura. Even the best players would know they would have to play very well to get a victory. Nowadays however, the word has been all but banned from these hallowed halls. The discussion is pointless - not even Jaedong or Flash have the same invincibility.
This phenomenon is not only found in Starcraft however. In cricket, the likes of Don Bradman are found no longer. Rugby dominance is fleeting, far removed from the days of ‘The Invincibles’. The time of the ‘.400 hitter in baseball has long passed. Soccer seems to have lost its Peles, ice hockey its Wayne Gretzkys. Throughout most of the sporting world in fact, there is a common theme, as time goes by, truly exceptional players seem to become thinner and thinner on the ground. What is going on?
When this man walked out onto the field, you knew you’d be in for one hell of a fight.
After sAviOr’s defeat at the hands of  Bisu in GomTv MSL, many thought this would be the beginning of a new era. Bisu appeared to be following in the footsteps of those before him, picking up a second MSL title and poised to take a third. That’s when Mind destroyed Bisu 3-1, becoming (at the time) the youngest starleague winner ever. Since then, despite Jaedong's often brilliant play, even since the true emergence of Flash as the ‘Ultimate Weapon’, we haven’t had a player who we know will win.
Often this lack of legends is attributed, in part, to there simply being giants in those days. Granted the level of play was lower, but the legends were more exceptional people. Personally, however much I may love him and however much some may disagree with me, I see no evidence to suggest if NaDa was instead coming into his prime now, that he would be performing the same way that he did. He’d be good, even great, but can we truly claim that he’d dominate the scene for years as he once did?
The more switched on among us will suggest a variety of causes. The greatest players have the greatest stress put upon them, as their team and fans pressure them to succeed. Proleague matches and individual leagues come thick and fast and players burn out quickly, leaving very little time to be at the top.
I do not dispute these factors have had a large influence. However, I feel that this analysis is incomplete.
Gould suggests that, because extremes (the biggest, the oldest, the fastest, and the best) fascinate us, we tend to focus our attention. Fair enough, we’re generally fans of good and performing players. We can be forgiven for concentrating on these players, but we forget about the players around them that include the greats as unusual values. In order to appreciate the good players for what they are however, Gould proposes that we simply consider extremes as the limiting values of larger systems. Thinking in this way allows an entirely different explanation to arise to the questions that these final edits often seek to explain. Why are the best players so good?
Gould tells us that if the amount of variation changes (for whatever reason), then these extreme values may increase (if the total variation in the skill level of the players grows) or decrease (if the total variation shrinks) without any special reason intrinsic to the nature of being that extreme. Essentially, trends in extremes may simply be a result of systematic changes in the amount of variation. In other words, when player’s skill levels become more streamlined, great players find it harder to truly stand out, despite being no worse (though they are generally far better) than those that were exemplary before them. It makes perfect sense when you think about it; if the best players are playing less bad players and more good players, of course they won’t do as well.
This is all very well you might think, but what does it have to do with Starcraft? Everything, as it turns out. Think back, one trend that has been nearly consistent in the history of Broodwar has been the steady rise in the level of play. As Day[9] mentioned during a live cast last year, a good strategy on b.net used to be building 6 gateways in your opponents base (with a 95% win rate he jokingly claimed). I don’t think many would argue with me if I said virtually everybody in the PokerStrategy.com TSL round of sixteen has the skill to win an OSL, if they had been playing the way they are now, back in 2002. Then there is the steady retirement of players who no longer make the grade, resulting in fewer players at bottom end of the spectrum. Players have a fierce drive to succeed; you have to if you want to last long. Teams will not send out players in the proleague who they do not think can win and those who aren’t yet ready are held back until they are. All these things come together to make the competition inside and outside a team house very tough, especially amongst those only just making the grade.
The facts are inescapable: professional Broodwar has seen a gradual decline, admittedly often punctuated with the arrival of new builds and the sudden slumping of players, in the variation amongst progamers. There are fewer players at the very pinnacle these days, but also fewer truly terrible players playing at the highest level. It seems virtually anybody at the top level these days can take a game off virtually anybody else, so fierce and tight is the competition.
Shine is a case in point.
There are many parallels between Starcraft history and the history of other sports. One I’d like to talk about is the parallel between Donald Bradman and Ma Jae Yoon. Both players seemed in their prime. sAviOr had just come off a emphatic win against NaDa. Bradman was scoring triple centuries. He slaughtered bowling attacks with an average of over 100 (unheard of before or since), steering Australia to victory after victory. I remember sAviOr’s play once being described thusly: “It doesn’t matter what you do, he will just 3 hatch and kill you”. In a similar way, Bradman strode out onto the field, played the same way he always did, whoever was bowling, and scored hundreds of runs. Then they suddenly met their match in the form of a style of play specifically created to counter their style of play. Bill Bowes, using the specifically invented ‘bodyline’ bowling, took leg stump first ball leaving Bradman dazed and the crowd dead silent.
The cricketing equivalent of SAviOr going 0-3 against an unaccomplished protoss.
That story will be uncannily familiar to those of us who watched the series between Bisu and sAviOr. Bisu used his newly created build, the so-called ‘Bisu build’, to systematically destroy sAviOr’s previously invincible ZvP. TeamLiquid watched, stunned, as Bisu used sAviOr’s play against him heralding an end to the age of legends. Even now, years after his last major starleague victory, sAviOr has thousands of fans hoping for him to recapture that old magic. One suspects the fans, of which I am one, will keep hoping, trusting, until the day he retires. Bradman, for his own part, is now widely considered to be the greatest batsman ever. Regardless, the play style of both players has been beaten and the strength of batsmen and Starcraft players today far outstrips each player in his prime.
Now I don’t mean to diminish the accomplishments or greatness of the legends of Starcraft. They thrived in a time when creativity was king, which is no less worthy than thriving in today’s mechanics oriented play. Neither do I want to suggest that the players then had less talent than those of today. At the same time, I think it’s fairly self evident though that the standard of play today is far greater than that of yesteryear.
Boxer: ... I think the me right now is a lot better than when I was at my prime long ago. That’s how much the skill average increased. Even though if I was at my prime I would lose.
Savior: I believe the same. I think I'm better now than I was at my prime. These days everyone is so good, they don't get shaken up mentally either. Aftergame interviews of winners all sound like they were mentally fine. That’s how much better players got.
The question then becomes: how has this reduction in variation been achieved? How, in the case of Broodwar, has it been achieved so quickly? Keep in mind that this would only work in sports that are directly competitive (unlike golf for instance, which involves simultaneous competitions of player against course). When these sports are young, styles of play are often highly irregular. Play hasn’t become sufficiently established so that opponents are able to foil the style, the antics of the very best. To quote Gould, “Wee Willie Keeler could hit ‘em where they ain’t” (and compile an average of .432 in 1897) because fielders didn’t yet know where they should be”. The history of Starcraft is no exception. Grrrr... was highly successful near the turn of the millennium because he was so far ahead of the pack strategically. In the days before replays, finding counters to his play took much longer. NaDa destroyed people because the execution of his ‘tornado’ style was so exemplary, many found it too difficult to counter. iloveoov’s stats looked like they did because he rode the crest of his macro revolution. He had the ability to seemingly pull armies out of nowhere, earning himself the nickname ‘cheater terran’. Nal_rA’s extended dominance lay in his ability to change and adapt, testing the frontiers of Starcraft, earning him the nickname ‘The Dreamer’ and my everlasting love. Once Kang Min grew tired of dreaming, he resorted to using 2 base carrier what felt like every single game, slowly fading away before retiring.
He could only fight against the current for so long.
I rarely play a game of Starcraft these days and I certainly have never been a progamer, so others could likely more easily pinpoint the changes and innovations that have led to this decrease in variation. These changes will have the common feature of increasing precision, regularity and standardization of play. The mental edge will forever be an immensely important factor, but players and coaches have found ways of removing many of the other edges truly excellent players once enjoyed. Players practice various builds hours on end, perfecting their execution. Timings are refined to what seems like millisecond accuracy. Builds are subtly altered before matches to specifically counter their opponents. It can now truly be said that professional gamers no longer ‘play’, but compete.
Jaedong’s play historically, and more recently Flash’s play, embodies this philosophy. In the past, players succeeded on the strength of their own play. Flash succeeds by nullifying the advantages of his opponents. His timings are near perfect, units are brought to exploit the finest of timing windows. His builds are exemplary, subtly different each game to foil the style of his latest victim. In fact, his entire play style is honed to counter critical aspects of his opponents play. Zerg regularly find themselves denied their third gas, while Terran opponents are constantly out positioned. Jaedong’s ZvP is much the same; his Protoss opponents find themselves foiled at every turn.
Many sports seem to take decades, if not centuries, to attain the same sort of regularity. Why is change in Starcraft so accelerated? The answer I feel is twofold: the replay, and the nature of the proscene. The introduction of replays vastly sped up the process. Immediately after a game a player can identify exactly what they did wrong and what their opponent did right and adapt accordingly. Even with the introduction of televised matches in other sports, nothing compares to the completeness of the replay. The proscene is another important factor. One feels players are driven further and harder in Starcraft than any other sport. Players live with each other and practice 12 hours or more every day, driving forth the standard of play at an incredible speed.
So what separates the good from the great in this new age of Starcraft? With the reduction in variation, no longer are players able to succeed in the way they used to, simply by being so far ahead of the competition nobody can catch them. Others have spoken of the greatest players’ unparalleled mental strength, their ability to dictate the game to their opponents and to play mind games, especially in best of five matches. I don’t seek to diminish those theories, as they are undoubtedly correct. Instead, I’d like to propose yet another way of measuring truly excellent players.
There are players who have tremendous natural ability, unparalleled mental strength and incredible streaks of good form. JulyZerg is a great example, and to continue with the cricketing parallel, so is Ian Botham. What do they lack that stops them from dominating? The graph below shows Botham’s batting performance throughout his career. We can see that his prowess greatly fluctuated throughout his career, just like Julyzerg. Somedays they can beat anybody, other days they just seem to crash and burn.
Does this punctuated performance record look familiar?
Newer players often seem to have the game in the bag, but falter at the final hurdle. They haven’t yet developed the restraint not to be tempted by that ball outside off stump and throwing away their wicket, or taking a shot at goal but missing the pass to the teammate in the better position, or make the mistake of going for the killing blow too early and throwing the game.
In this age of fierce competition and high general skill level, the key to success is consistency. Consistency during a game, during a series and over the course of one’s career. Newer cricketing greats like Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar share this trait with the likes of Jaedong and Flash. They have the skill and ability to hit flashy shots, or execute flashy strategies as well of course. Lara and Tendulkar had the ability to bat for three days if required, driving down the ground safely and playing the forward defensive 3000 times. Soccer's David Beckham and Cristiano Ronaldo suceed for many of the same reasons. They have the ability to perform game after game and season after season. Jaedong and Flash, similarly, rarely seem to miss a step or make a wrong move. Even when they slip up, it takes an extraordinary effort to consolidate your advantage against them. They counter key aspects of their opponents play every single game. Look no further than their gigantic winning streaks throughout their career if you want testament as to their consistency.
Despite their indisputable domination of the Broodwar scene, you can see now that those at the top of Power Rank these days are not ‘bonjwas’. The time of the bonjwa, at least as TeamLiquid has defined the word, has come and gone. Call those who remain what you will; they are something different, something more.
I contend that Starcraft is only just now truly emerging as a refined sport. It is only now beginning to spread its wings and soar. We have come through the period all sports face as they develop, where the edges are being tested and new discoveries are being made. We have come, at last, to the pinnacle.
The legends of old fell from the sky when their success forced the hand of their opponents. In a similar way, with the impending release of Starcraft 2, Broodwar's waxen wings will soon melt. Blizzard has seen the finish and form of our emerging sport and could not help but see the potential for a sequel. The brilliance of broodwar has ensured the very highest of standards for the development team. The rabid fanbase is already in place. All signs point towards Starcraft 2 being a gigantic success, at Broodwar's expense. Essentially, Broodwar's sucess will be its undoing; it has flown too close to the sun.
I and much of TeamLiquid bemoan the loss of our great heroes. Tournaments like the IeSF are eagerly anticipated and fervently followed. Some bemoan the game that Broodwar has become. Some eagerly await Starcraft 2 so the journey can begin again. I, like everybody else, will likely make the switch when the time comes. On that day, spare a thought for Broodwar; Its edges smoothed, having attained grace and precision in its execution, only becoming all the more beautiful for it. Broodwar will be cut down in its prime.
Thanks to Silversky for the banner!
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I've read through some of this and so far its an amazing read.This must have taken you a really long time to research and write, so i'd just like to thank you for your dedication.
Alright i'm back to reading.
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5673 Posts
One of the better articles I've had the pleasure of reading here on TL.  Good job!
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Quite a sobering reality to face. But a topic I've consider many times as well. Nicely done and great point!
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Great article! Sad to say, but it's true 
BW probably doesn't have much longer.
Also, this paragraph:
Despite their indisputable domination of the Broodwar scene, you can see now that those at the top of Power Rank these days are not ‘bonjwas’. The time of the bonjwa, at least as TeamLiquid has defined the word, has come and gone. Call those who remain what you will; they are something different, something more.
This I really like.
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Good read. Maybe SC2 will start the same way as BW. Strategic victories are always more interesting to me than standard mechanics battles.
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Just finished reading the article. Very well written, it must've taken you a long time to structure this idea and research for it, so thanks for your effort!
Indeed I feel that the term bonjwa will never be used to label a SC progamer again; in the past the tipping point(IMO) for a player to be called a bonjwa was ~3 consecutive titles and a prerequisite win-rate of >65ish%, but it seems it no longer is enough due to the evolution of BW gameplay; you feel as though something is missing.
You also hit it on the spot: the new greats of starcraft (Bisu, JD, Flash etc.) may not be classed as "bonjwa",simply because they are something more: they are the champions of the twilight years of starcraft, the years that are culminating with the era of the greatest SC progamers we've ever seen. Bonjwas may have dominated eras, but these players are simply the best that have ever played starcraft.
The bonjwas were right to say that if they played in this era of SC, they'd certainly be less than great.
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nice research and comparing Ma Jaeyoon to a cricket hero of yore- just brilliant
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Almost brought a tear to my eye. Very well written.
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Awesome article, thanks.
No thanks for making me spend a half hour on wikipedia figuring out what this "cricket" stuff is all about!
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Consistency is only one of many reasons why Flash and Jaedong are great but I guess that wasn't really the point of the article so I shouldn't complain.
It makes me really sad when people say that modern SC is "boring" because of the refinement of play. Thank you for writing a counterargument
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There is no statistical argument against Jaedong being a Bonjwa.
+ Show Spoiler +and i still wouldn't call him one
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Great read
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This was certainly an interesting read and a breath of fresh air in regards to a lot of FE's which are emotionally inspired.
However, even after reading it twice it seems like an article written by Captain Obvious. I mean it was cool to learn about cricket and such but....a lot of people have already known the fact that skill level has risen and old legends wouldn't stand out at all.
But again, nice delivery.
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On February 22 2010 11:58 CaptainPlatypus wrote:
Awesome article, thanks.
No thanks for making me spend a half hour on wikipedia figuring out what this "cricket" stuff is all about!
Same here! Amazing read! Been waiting for this next Final Edit.. It's been a while.
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amazing read. but it just makes me think even more that sc2 will take a heavy rise over bw.
it feels like what i love most is slipping away T-T
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Nal_rA is my lover too...
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incredible article; the parallels are really quite astounding. thank you for silencing those who criticize that BW has become a shadow of its creative and competitive past, the article's depth is really well-written.
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On February 22 2010 11:12 Alethios wrote:
On that day, spare a thought for Broodwar; Its edges smoothed, having attained grace and precision in its execution, only becoming all the more beautiful for it. Broodwar will be cut down in its prime.
Just like the great players who played it. Great article.
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Wow pretty great article. Not the message I was expecting at all.
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Great read, and indeed broodwar is geting killed at its prime. But the time of the bonjwas is not gone: it starts anew with sc2, waiting for a new generation to start dreaming.
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MrMoose
Canada176 Posts
very interesting read -- thanks!
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TBH the last sentence makes me sad T.T
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Man, that last line... :'(
Just so bittersweet.
This was a great article. God I love TLFEs.
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Great article to read. Thanks. ^_^
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First time I read through it I couldn't make all that much out of it as I don't follow the pros as much as I just like watching a random pro game here and there.
I don't care about who wins and who loses much.
I just enjoy seeing strange out-of-the-box strategies and crazy macro/micro.
Reading through it more carefully the second time I do think I get the point now; and it seems to apply a lot to what I love seeing.
When competition gets too fierce there are very few big icons left that everybody knows of...
I'm guessing David Kim on Starcraft 2 does give a small scale example of this!
While he's no tournament champion of any kind he's a ton ahead of everybody else, and does all kinds of crazy tricks.
I'm far from the only person who bursted out laughing seeing his endless sea of Banelings.
I've heard people on livestream even jokingly say "Oh God! Not him!" when matched against him.
Yet soon the community will know way more tricks than he does and he eventually becomes nobody special as far as his playing skills go.
Just a random cool guy.
That's a very interesting read! Kind of lengthy though. 
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Very beautifully composed.
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Beautifully well-written. Thank you.
Truly, the current generation with Jaedong, Flash, Stork, Bisu and so many others is the pinnacle of professional e-sports. I wonder if we should be seeing too many games on the caliber of Stork vs Jaedong from two nights ago, or (what should have been) the Nate MSL finals for a long time to come.
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Excellent article. Great content and very well written.
The last line is a sobering truth though ;/
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Only problem, Bradman lost to the bodyline for a short period of time, and then the ICC said "no" and Bradman went back to kicking English bootay.
Imagine if Kespa came in and banned the Bisu Build... 
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SC2 will promote strategic play ahead of mechanical play, I cannot wait to see how it turns out.
SC:BW <3
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Brought a tear to my eye ;(
Really miss the days of the terran Bonjwas
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Amazing article, it's a lot more refined and without the fluff of the other FE's imo.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Really original and awsome read, thanks XD o/
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Great articel, but I think the title would sound better: "On Wings of Wax"
Actually that sounds like a George R.R. Martin novel lol
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Hey thanks for the kind words guys. Glad you all enjoyed it.
As for taking a while... I started work on it just after this post-
On October 09 2009 19:02 Alethios wrote:
One of the great traditions here at teamliquid is that of contributing something significant for one's milestone posts. We've seen in depth analysis, interesting one-off tournaments, teamliquid projects and much more. I feel it’s a small but important part of what makes this site such a great resource with such an amazing community.
....
My plan is a series of blog posts touching on a variety of topics chosen by you guys. This'll culminate in a starcraft related post that'll hopefully somewhat channel the awesomeness of a final edit.
So yeah, roughly 4 months. Had only planned on it being a blog post at first. It took a while before I had the essence of it. I showed it to Plexa in November or so, who thought riptide might be interested. Riptide suggested some avenues for further development and I finished up the last major changes the day before getting on the plane to Paris. Over the next month the piece was finalised with some little help from my friends and forum veterans.
On February 22 2010 16:39 Megaman703 wrote:Only problem, Bradman lost to the bodyline for a short period of time, and then the ICC said "no" and Bradman went back to kicking English bootay. Imagine if Kespa came in and banned the Bisu Build...
Savior will return! It has be prophesied!
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Thank you for an amazing and in depth read! I enjoyed it a lot
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Very good article but I disagree on SC2 part
Blizzard is not the same company it was 10 years ago, they aim to please casuals and attract a lot of players now so SC2 will be much easier to master and less challenging
SC2 will never match Brood War as far as level of play required to be on top in my opinion, but it will make them more money which is sadly what this is all about
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This makes me really sad...
Anyways - great article!
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Wonderful writeup. It's a good analysis of the overall shift in SC skill level over time, coupled with references to other sports and the imminent SC2 release. If only everyone in those awful "which of SC and SC2 will prevail?" threads could write like this, I might have kept reading past the first couple posts.
Again, well done.
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United States4796 Posts
Amazing write, Alethios.
Great TLFE.
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Beautiful final edit, wonderfully writen.
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GOOSEBUMPS
>: The only way to save BroodWar is tradition, and it's not been around long enough for that to seep in.
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1 liner: I thought the thread was written by waxangel =P
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very cool, love the comparing.
i felt the same way when comparing blooms taxonomy with iccup level ranks
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Belgium9947 Posts
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great article. everything backed by facts and reference to proof ur point. except the end. i didn;t like the end. remove it imo.
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Why is this in Final Edit again? How can this post possibly be awesomer??
And if you want to compare someone in cricket to Flash, look no further than Virender Sehwag. The man scores triple centuries easier than Don Bradman did in his prime. And seemingly nothing can be done to stop him going on a streak.
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Brilliant.. But I find myself stricken by a sense of sadness, reading this.
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I used to have that keyboard that rA is holding ^^
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Nice article, but idk anything about cricket, lol.
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Beautiful article man....
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Very eloquently written. My only complaint is that you probably should have used a sport with a greater world-wide following, so that readers could understand your analogies and metaphors better. I myself have no idea what playing Cricket entails. You mentioned Soccer/Football a few times; maybe that should have been your major sports focus.
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Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find?
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epic last sentence
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Very great write-up! I enjoyed reading it and applaud you on your great work.
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On February 23 2010 04:17 WWJDD wrote:
Why is this in Final Edit again? How can this post possibly be awesomer??
And if you want to compare someone in cricket to Flash, look no further than Virender Sehwag. The man scores triple centuries easier than Don Bradman did in his prime. And seemingly nothing can be done to stop him going on a streak.
Hm? It's in final edit because it is awesome.
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Bout time someone quoted simon and garfunkle in one of their articles
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On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find?
Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond.
Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition.
Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example.
Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again.
While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes).
Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose.
Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too.
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On February 23 2010 14:46 Cauld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find? Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond. Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition. Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example. Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again. While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes). Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose. Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too.
Excellent first post man. Welcome to TeamLiquid!
We could well be seeing a simple stagnation. As you suggested, a further boom could probably be caused if there was a significant development in the way the game is played.
It all comes back to whether factors conspire to increase the level of variation amongst players, then we will likely see an increase in outstanding player frequency.
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On February 23 2010 10:01 Simplistik wrote:
But what about Federer?
There will never be another player like him you will see. Everyone is becoming good and eventually everyone will be even.
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What you say about golf is absolutely ridiculous. You can't throw out its validity because competition is not directly between 2 people. It's usually between a group of people who have established good leads and have to up their games to overwhelm their opponent. Most of the greatest golfing moments have been races between two people to outdo each other, and they are deeply mental affairs. Golf is possibly the most mentally demanding sport in the world and one of the hardest, because you have SO much time to think about your moves and you can't rely on reactions, you have to embrace your doubts and fears or suppress them for freakin' ages.
Manning, Federer and Woods easily put paid to your argument, I don't see what's going on here, sorry. Federer has been an unstoppable machine of death, Woods is simply double the greatness of any of his rivals, Manning accounts for about 50% of his team's win chance. There are greats in every era including ours and including the future in an equal spread. I don't know why you so desire to beat down the present you are living in. Diego Maradona was pretty much as good if not better than Pele. The 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's all have their even spread of sports geniuses, there is no decline imo.
Other than that, I enjoyed the read, even if the ending is fairly saddening. I'm not sure it's dead certain they'll make the switch on the proscene though.
Oh and not to mention Usain Bolt, Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stephen Hendry, who are all modern behemoths. And Phil Taylor of the darts world, literally the best by a country mile.
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On February 23 2010 14:46 Cauld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find? Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond. Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition. Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example. Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again. While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes). Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose. Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too.
There are, of course, exceptional players in competetive sports, and you name good examples of them. But I believe the point behind the article is that there is no longer "a" dominant player that you could point out as the absolute leader and master of the sport/game. Competition has gotten so fierce that there is no significant difference between those at the top and those that follow, they can all beat each other and none is assured a victory. Unlike, for example, Roger Federer who is a good example of being "the" player to beat in Tennis.
Soccer fans may agree that non-competitive football leagues, like those in South America, follow an opposite trend. In Chile, Uruguay and Argentina (to some extent), even in Brazil, leagues are dominated constantly by the same "big teams" year after year. Colo-Colo, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Peñarol (though this one has declined as of lately), Nacional, Universidad de Chile, all these teams vastly dominate their countries' leagues. Colo-Colo has won 6 out of the last 8 tournaments, with a total of 29 titles, the follower, Universidad de Chile has only 13, and consider that most of the first division teams in Chile haven't got any. River Plate has 33 argentinian titles, Boca Juniors has 22, other small teams have 1 or none in their first division. Same occurs is Uruguay and Brazil. Even in the international scene the "big teams" dominate, though some smaller teams have won some international titles, it's very rare. Big teams, as big players ("bonjwas"), dominate because there is no competition around them to take their dominance.
All in all, the competition makes the players.
ps: Hope someone likes southamerican football.
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Quite an impressive read, and I think a point many people here are missing is, it doesn't matter if there are greats in other sports left. If you say Tiger Woods is a bonjwa and thus the argument is false, one could reply that Golf hasn't reached the pinnacle of its evolution as a competitive sport. (besides who the fuck argues with golf vs sc?)
I truly hope sc2 enjoys a long time of the creative, but I feel like the evolution of sc2 into its pinnacle will take half as long or shorter by comparison to the original starcraft. Replays, analysis of build orders/timings/strats are all things we consider normal now that many in 98' wouldn't have heard of.
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1. Nah, nobody, especially sponsored teams will play sc2 for at least few years, when top players will establish or at least emerge.
2. It's like You were so excited about somebody making "chess 2"
3. More people play and will always play in counter-strike 1.6 than counter-strike: condition zero and Counter-Strike: Source both. Those two games lasted only 1 or 2 WCG's if I still recognize the facts.
4. Fisher was BONJWA, not some stupid run around stick guys, (sorry, no bonus).
cheers
edit:
just read the 'General Forum', please don't ban me
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Thanks for the article. It was a very interesting read. I have to admit it made me sad.
Seeing how consistent KT is now as a team is amazing - although sad knowing that soon their 12h days playing Brood War will come to an end. Sure it will all start anew with Starcraft 2 - but it could very well turn into a Warcraft 3 deal where one incident ruins an entire scene. I just might call it quits with gaming altogether once Brood War goes out of style.
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On February 23 2010 20:48 sc4k wrote:
What you say about golf is absolutely ridiculous. You can't throw out its validity because competition is not directly between 2 people. It's usually between a group of people who have established good leads and have to up their games to overwhelm their opponent. Most of the greatest golfing moments have been races between two people to outdo each other, and they are deeply mental affairs. Golf is possibly the most mentally demanding sport in the world and one of the hardest, because you have SO much time to think about your moves and you can't rely on reactions, you have to embrace your doubts and fears or suppress them for freakin' ages.
Manning, Federer and Woods easily put paid to your argument, I don't see what's going on here, sorry. Federer has been an unstoppable machine of death, Woods is simply double the greatness of any of his rivals, Manning accounts for about 50% of his team's win chance. There are greats in every era including ours and including the future in an equal spread. I don't know why you so desire to beat down the present you are living in. Diego Maradona was pretty much as good if not better than Pele. The 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's all have their even spread of sports geniuses, there is no decline imo.
Other than that, I enjoyed the read, even if the ending is fairly saddening. I'm not sure it's dead certain they'll make the switch on the proscene though.
Oh and not to mention Usain Bolt, Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stephen Hendry, who are all modern behemoths. And Phil Taylor of the darts world, literally the best by a country mile.
What you seem to think my argument was:
"Bonjwas don't happen any more, ever."
What my argument actually was:
"Systematic changes in variation lead to changes in the frequency of outstanding players. Some sports obviously allow more scope for reduction in variation to occur, which as a general rule, are the sports i've talked about.
Claiming that my entire my argument is invalid because of some vague handwaving about the mental competition of golfers and how there are still exceptional players around in certain sports is a sure sign you didn't understand what I was trying to say.
Methinks you need to stop tilting at windmills Don Quixote.
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On February 24 2010 08:56 Alethios wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 20:48 sc4k wrote:
What you say about golf is absolutely ridiculous. You can't throw out its validity because competition is not directly between 2 people. It's usually between a group of people who have established good leads and have to up their games to overwhelm their opponent. Most of the greatest golfing moments have been races between two people to outdo each other, and they are deeply mental affairs. Golf is possibly the most mentally demanding sport in the world and one of the hardest, because you have SO much time to think about your moves and you can't rely on reactions, you have to embrace your doubts and fears or suppress them for freakin' ages.
Manning, Federer and Woods easily put paid to your argument, I don't see what's going on here, sorry. Federer has been an unstoppable machine of death, Woods is simply double the greatness of any of his rivals, Manning accounts for about 50% of his team's win chance. There are greats in every era including ours and including the future in an equal spread. I don't know why you so desire to beat down the present you are living in. Diego Maradona was pretty much as good if not better than Pele. The 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's all have their even spread of sports geniuses, there is no decline imo.
Other than that, I enjoyed the read, even if the ending is fairly saddening. I'm not sure it's dead certain they'll make the switch on the proscene though.
Oh and not to mention Usain Bolt, Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stephen Hendry, who are all modern behemoths. And Phil Taylor of the darts world, literally the best by a country mile.
" Systematic changes in variation lead to changes in the frequency of outstanding players. Some sports obviously allow more scope for reduction in variation to occur, which as a general rule, are the sports i've talked about. .
Ok, I think in your first argument you are essentially saying that we don't see bonjwas anymore in SC because that's how some sports work, eventually the competition gets good enough and people can't dominate clearly. I'm telling you that I think that is complete bollocks. In computer games that may be the case, but not with 95% of proper sports. There could easily be a new Pele or Maradona this decade. There's nothing saying there won't be, or there's any less chance than before.
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this article....so good
i completely agree with the analysis that replays rapidly sped up the refinement of starcraft
i guess its a good and bad thing.. : /
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On February 24 2010 00:52 anotheracc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 14:46 Cauld wrote:On February 23 2010 07:44 aidnai wrote:
Great article! The way you wrap it all up is especially poignant! But I wonder, how do athletes like Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant fit into your starting assumption that "bonjwa's" are becoming harder and harder to find? Awesome article. It inspired me to register just to respond. Alethios mentioned Tiger woods in that sports like Golf don't count because you're not directly competing against your opponent. I disagree that as competition rises in general, exceptional players become more rare. There are certainly examples of athletes who far exceed the rest of their competition. Bryant was there for a couple years and may be there for one or two more. Lebron is really the NBA superstar. Ovechkin is the new hockey "bonjwa", I think (though I don't follow hockey much). And Pujols is certainly the best baseball player who hasn't been tainted by the steroid era. Jimmie Johnson absolutely dominates NASCAR (but again I don't follow it). Payton Manning in the NFL is another example. Perhaps we're just seeing some stagnation at the elite levels of the bw pro leagues as so often happens in any other sport. I've noticed recently that when everyone finally succumbs to the idea that a sport has truly reached 'parity' (usually a term used only in team sports), something will happen to change the game again. While it's unlikely we'll see a .400 hitter again in baseball there have been some serious challengers the past few years (Ichiro, Chipper Jones, Mauer, and Pujols have each batted over .350 in only the least 2 seasons). Nobody ever thought Ruth's home run record could be touched or Lou Gehrig's, but Maris and Ripkin eclipsed them. Wilt's 100 point game was thought untouchable, but Kobe put down 80 in what looked to be effortless performance only a couple years ago, seemingly doing it just to show the world he could. (Doing it a few days after some were disappointed he didn't play the 4th quarter of a blowout when he'd already scored 60 through 36 minutes). Hopefully no one's upset at my 1st post being so verbose. Edit: I forgot Federer! Him too. There are, of course, exceptional players in competetive sports, and you name good examples of them. But I believe the point behind the article is that there is no longer "a" dominant player that you could point out as the absolute leader and master of the sport/game. Competition has gotten so fierce that there is no significant difference between those at the top and those that follow, they can all beat each other and none is assured a victory. Unlike, for example, Roger Federer who is a good example of being "the" player to beat in Tennis. Soccer fans may agree that non-competitive football leagues, like those in South America, follow an opposite trend. In Chile, Uruguay and Argentina (to some extent), even in Brazil, leagues are dominated constantly by the same "big teams" year after year. Colo-Colo, Boca Juniors, River Plate, Peñarol (though this one has declined as of lately), Nacional, Universidad de Chile, all these teams vastly dominate their countries' leagues. Colo-Colo has won 6 out of the last 8 tournaments, with a total of 29 titles, the follower, Universidad de Chile has only 13, and consider that most of the first division teams in Chile haven't got any. River Plate has 33 argentinian titles, Boca Juniors has 22, other small teams have 1 or none in their first division. Same occurs is Uruguay and Brazil. Even in the international scene the "big teams" dominate, though some smaller teams have won some international titles, it's very rare. Big teams, as big players ("bonjwas"), dominate because there is no competition around them to take their dominance. All in all, the competition makes the players. ps: Hope someone likes southamerican football.
Actually recently soccer in Brazil has gotten really fierce to the point where very late into the competition its still impossible to know who will win
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superbly written, great cross referencing, not a lot of "fluff" and a whole lot of content. well done
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Amazing article.
Fantastic job.
Is a new revolution have good things and bad things like everything...
I would like that persons that already play SC2 or even not play but that have "solid" ideas of game could say this:
If SC2 gonna be so hard to "learn" like BW?
Easy to learn but harder to master?
Now that is beta but is probably already song good ideas about Sc2
If theres already a thread about this or similar plz post there i would like to read
Thanks
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I love that u realized that with the game getting more and more high skilled its basically bound to die soon..
But I just hope SC 2 is getting gooood =)
amazing article liked it
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Anyone who doesn't get goosebumps from reading this is heartless.
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Good stuff. I agree that the answer simply lies in the way the sport has been "figured out" to a degree that many players can practice their technical skills and succeed to some degree.
I believe SC2 will be able to pick up where Brood War left off. I have not played it yet, myself, but the reports I hear all say that you can tell it is still StarCraft. That is what will keep the sport alive.
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Awesome article, and I immediately knew which article by Gould you were referencing (the disappearance of the .400 hitter) and later he had an entire book on the subject.
It (Gould's idea) is a really cool idea that should have gotten a lot more attention and explains a great deal of competitive phenomena (early experimentation, later standardization).
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On February 25 2010 00:35 FieryBalrog wrote:
Awesome article, and I immediately knew which article by Gould you were referencing (the disappearance of the .400 hitter) and later he had an entire book on the subject.
It (Gould's idea) is a really cool idea that should have gotten a lot more attention and explains a great deal of competitive phenomena (early experimentation, later standardization).
Thanks. Yeah i'm a real fan of Gould, I don't think he got half the credit he deserved for his contribution to science and public understanding.
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This is a great article. I hope we all take time to remember the Bonjwas; those that made BW great. It is very ironic that BW's success was its own undoing.
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Nice read. Agree completely. I always considered this to be the reason why Boxer and friends were privileged enough to wear the bonjwa title, whilst better players of the game such as Bisu, JD and Flash were not so fortunate. It is much harder to stand out these days because the level of play has risen so much.
Thanks for the effort.
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Very nice writing. Beautiful analogies.
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"The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live." -Norman Cousins quote
Nice writing.
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This article is bunk. The 'bonjwas' of the past were not as untouchable as people (including the author) like to pretend.
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Well for starters here is iloveoov:
Not to mention his 27-0 TvZ streak.
I'd say thats pretty untouchable as things go.
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On February 22 2010 20:47 Insight wrote:
SC2 will never match Brood War as far as level of play required to be on top in my opinion, but it will make them more money which is sadly what this is all about
In my Opinion people will of course play SC2 when it comes out, but its new and shiney and stuff. But as the game progresses and people get used to the graphics, and are more focusing on the gameplay and units, they will miss sc:bw. I mean watching Jangi doing perfect storms and epic reaver micro is unique. The feeling u have when watching the workers run away from that single stupid scarab, the tension, i havent had any of it watching sc2 streams, and i watched a lot of streams. But this is just me! Yesterday i watch the epic stork vs jaedong ace match from the winnersleague with a friend. that game is crazy it´s 10 min setting up and 30 min pure battles.
And while i was like omg this game is so epic. he couldn´t get the epicness out of it. i was like -.-
It´s so sad seeing no truely great games coming out nowadays.I will keep playing sc:bw and jagged alliance 2 1.13, not because my pc can´t run the newer graphic focused games, but because the games themself are the best , in terms of long time play. New games suck because they want u to have fun, either you are winning or loosing.
to sum it up. You are totally right man !
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I thought this is about Wax Angel!! BOO!
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On March 01 2010 12:42 evanthebouncy! wrote:
I thought this is about Wax Angel!! BOO!
Lol i've had a couple of other people say the same thing to me recently!
Sorry for the inconvénience!
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On February 28 2010 21:58 Alethios wrote:Well for starters here is iloveoov: Not to mention his 27-0 TvZ streak. I'd say thats pretty untouchable as things go.
Let's take any of recent good terran players [sarcasm ;]]
Flash. Most recent stats,
Record: 58 wins - 13 losses (81.69%)
not to mention power outage while FLASH WAS IN DECENT POSITION,
NOT ONLY IN DECENT POSITION, IN LAST 36(!) GAMES AGAINST ZERG
HE LOST ONE LATE GAME AND IT WAS AGAINST HYUN CHEESE
(or well prepared counter-build, hm)
where is Your god now?
(first time in my life i wrote it public, I feel sooo much better o_O)
greets
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On March 05 2010 06:15 DracoVolantus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 21:58 Alethios wrote:Well for starters here is iloveoov: Not to mention his 27-0 TvZ streak. I'd say thats pretty untouchable as things go. Let's take any of recent good terran players [sarcasm ;]] Flash. Most recent stats, Record: 58 wins - 13 losses (81.69%) not to mention power outage while FLASH WAS IN DECENT POSITION, NOT ONLY IN DECENT POSITION, IN LAST 36(!) GAMES AGAINST ZERG HE LOST ONE LATE GAME AND IT WAS AGAINST HYUN CHEESE (or well prepared counter-build, hm) where is Your god now? (first time in my life i wrote it public, I feel sooo much better o_O) greets
First off, what is your point exactly?
Secondly, where are you getting this statistics from? TLPD shows Flash has lost to Jaedong, Calm, Kwanro and Zero since losing to Hyun. Even discounting the power outage incident, which is generally accepted to be a Flash loss (albeit a crappy one). Flash's lifetime record is 69.32%, not 81.69% as you claim.
Thirdly, did you read the article? Even if Flash was dominating as much as oov was, it wouldn't change anything. The way iloveoov dominated people and the way Flash dominates now are completely different.
Lastly, try to put a little more effort into your posting. I had to read your post over thrice before I understood what you were saying.
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On March 07 2010 09:26 Alethios wrote:
First off, what is your point exactly?
That Flash is every single bit similiar bonjwa as oov, boxer or nada was.
On March 07 2010 09:26 Alethios wrote:
Secondly, where are you getting this statistics from? TLPD shows Flash has lost to Jaedong, Calm, Kwanro and Zero since losing to Hyun. Even discounting the power outage incident, which is generally accepted to be a Flash loss (albeit a crappy one). Flash's lifetime record is 69.32%, not 81.69% as you claim.
1. He lost one LATE game, not ONE game in last 36 TvZ
2. Iloveoov lifetime record is 61.29%, but who cares?
I just took record from (as I wrote) MOST RECENT 71 games.
Sorry for capital letters before, hope You won't have to read this one post so many times ;]
On March 07 2010 09:26 Alethios wrote:
Thirdly, did you read the article? Even if Flash was dominating as much as oov was, it wouldn't change anything. The way iloveoov dominated people and the way Flash dominates now are completely different.
The thing is I think, that Flash is dominating the scene in every single bit similiar way to how Iloveoov was dominating it, but I have to admit that I didn't see all oov games, and I know I could be wrong in the very same way that people who didn't see last 36 FvZ games, and didn't expect Flash smashing Jaedong's into pieces in ace match, after loosing many m&m's on purpose in order to explain that HE WAS IN DECENT POSITION. not winning. de-cent. and I took this word from interview with him, not out of thin air.
Lastly, about comparison:
One lost in Bo5, and lost in ace match are not same things.
Game ending after early harassment and breaking through
many windows of opportunities for both races are not the same.
Lifetime record doesn't say anything about anybody, never, nowhere O_o
(last sentence sounds better in my primary language, hm)
cheers
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*sigh*
On March 07 2010 10:50 DracoVolantus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 09:26 Alethios wrote:
Secondly, where are you getting this statistics from? TLPD shows Flash has lost to Jaedong, Calm, Kwanro and Zero since losing to Hyun. Even discounting the power outage incident, which is generally accepted to be a Flash loss (albeit a crappy one). Flash's lifetime record is 69.32%, not 81.69% as you claim.
1. He lost one LATE game, not ONE game in last 36 TvZ
What does this mean?
On March 07 2010 10:50 DracoVolantus wrote:
2. Iloveoov lifetime record is 61.29%, but who cares?
Indeed, who cares? If we're talking about the period when each player is considered a 'bonjwa', then a lifetime record is useless. Oov carried on for a long while after losing his aura of invincibility.
On March 07 2010 10:50 DracoVolantus wrote:
I just took record from (as I wrote) MOST RECENT 71 games.
You didn't say anything about only taking the most recent 71 games. Also, why 71? Seems a rather arbitrary number chosen specifically to create the highest possible win percentage.
On March 07 2010 10:50 DracoVolantus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 09:26 Alethios wrote:
Thirdly, did you read the article? Even if Flash was dominating as much as oov was, it wouldn't change anything. The way iloveoov dominated people and the way Flash dominates now are completely different.
The thing is I think, that Flash is dominating the scene in every single bit similiar way to how Iloveoov was dominating it, but I have to admit that I didn't see all oov games, and I know I could be wrong in the very same way that people who didn't see last 36 FvZ games, and didn't expect Flash smashing Jaedong's into pieces in ace match, after loosing many m&m's on purpose in order to explain that HE WAS IN DECENT POSITION. not winning. de-cent. and I took this word from interview with him, not out of thin air.
It's paragraphs like this that really tell me you have no idea what you're talking about and didn't understand what I was saying in my article.
Put simply, bonjwa's dominated by being on a different level of competition to those around them. Flash and Jaedong consistently win by (generally) executing things perfectly on a consistent basis.
Your protestations about Flash's high win percentage and "loosing many m&m's on purpose" are immaterial, and do nothing to advance the crux of your argument. Your argument is that "Flash dominates the scene in every single bit similiar way to how Iloveoov was dominating it". Demonstrate this to be the case, or find something else to occupy your time.
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I think he chose 71 games because that's the amount of games in that oov screenshot you posted. (Actually I get it to 73, but maybe him or I miscalculated it.)
Actually that is pretty amazing, I have seen that screenshot so many times and I could never imagine that one day someone would be able to do even better.
Great, great, article the amount of effort people pour into this site is nothing short of amazing.
Makes me sad that it is all going to be directed at some game I have no real interest in soon enough.
Many thanks for doing this writing this.
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On March 07 2010 10:50 DracoVolantus wrote:
1. He lost one LATE game, not ONE game in last 36 TvZ
On March 09 2010 13:47 Alethios wrote:
What does this mean?
Gosh. That he was in DECENT position, and there was only one game vs zerg
that lasted longer than 15 minutes which flash lost during more than the half year period.
And I'll add here that You should not place terran bonjwas and zerg bonjwa together, hm.
On March 09 2010 13:47 Alethios wrote:
You didn't say anything about only taking the most recent 71 games. Also, why 71? Seems a rather arbitrary number chosen specifically to create the highest possible win percentage.
It is since flash became bonjwa not since he was 15 year old shaking with fear kid, or wasted reflexes grandpa, that was what for we both were pointing out that lifetime record doesnt say anything, so Wtf? O_o
On March 09 2010 13:47 Alethios wrote:
It's paragraphs like this that really tell me you have no idea what you're talking about and didn't understand what I was saying in my article.
Put simply, bonjwa's dominated by being on a different level of competition to those around them. Flash and Jaedong consistently win by (generally) executing things perfectly on a consistent basis.
Your protestations about Flash's high win percentage and "loosing many m&m's on purpose" are immaterial, and do nothing to advance the crux of your argument. Your argument is that "Flash dominates the scene in every single bit similiar way to how Iloveoov was dominating it". Demonstrate this to be the case, or find something else to occupy your time.
Goddamnit, I don't have time for full response, so I'll try to make it short. At the very begining of Starcraft, there were few workers, and they were making building and units and fight each other, and that was what we saw on the screen, amazingly microed wins that were the road to walk on for many years, but then the game started to grow and new macro-orientated tactics emerged, from 3-hatch before spawning pool to 14 cc, and since like year, when flash or jaedong are playing we no longer see workers, buildings or units but pure spirits clashing their mental blades.
Hope that helps xD
P.S. Fischer was bonjwa.
P.S. 2 You are so sure it wasn't just streak of bad form for july that
one hundred milion games won vs Zerg by oov You bastard, aren't You? xDl
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wow, nice article.
I agree that there will be no longer any bonwjas, because the level of play has risen sooooo quick that all it comes down is to sheer mechanincs because mind haves are almost all set
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Ah very nice article.  for a good read. I see the same kind of change in a game like UT. Back in the days of GiTzZz` he was considered the pinnacle of skill, nowadays most top players would steamroll him.
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Brilliant. The end of the article is so charged and moving. /applause
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I'm fully in agreement with you that there are many parallels between iloveoov and flash. At the same time, as I explained in the article, I feel the way each player stacked up impressive winstreaks is very different.
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Awesome article!!!!!! TT so moving. Let's just hope SC2 can become just as great as SC1 :D!!!!
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ok, let's leave differences and similarities, though there are plenty of both 
You really think all progamers will move on to sc2
along with all sponsors and leagues, and sc will die?
To me it's unimaginable. It will not be a slow process neither. It just won't happen.
Here and now I state as fallows:
1. Neither Jeadong, nor Flash, nor Stork will ever play sc2 on pro scene.
There are many reasons to it and first is no or lower money for playing sc2.
2. It will take few years before progaming, even worldwide in sc2 will achieve
level of sc in korea at present, but personally I think it will never happen.
Goodnight and good luck.
PS
sorry for building of sentences, in my language it all makes sense :D
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On February 28 2010 21:58 Alethios wrote:Well for starters here is iloveoov: Not to mention his 27-0 TvZ streak. I'd say thats pretty untouchable as things go.
Flash's overall record is better and his TvT streak came very close. I don't see why you're using this photo to demonstrate oov's superior dominance when Flash's record surpasses this.
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On March 26 2010 16:15 NurseArial wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 21:58 Alethios wrote:Well for starters here is iloveoov: Not to mention his 27-0 TvZ streak. I'd say thats pretty untouchable as things go. Flash's overall record is better and his TvT streak came very close. I don't see why you're using this photo to demonstrate oov's superior dominance when Flash's record surpasses this.
I posted the photo in response to a claim that the bonjwa's of the past were not as untouchable as people like to think. I think the photo addresses this claim well, iloveoov was pretty untouchable in his prime.
Now, nowhere have I claimed that oov's dominance was superior to Flash. I refer you to my article:
Despite their indisputable domination of the Broodwar scene, you can see now that those at the top of Power Rank these days are not ‘bonjwas’. The time of the bonjwa, at least as TeamLiquid has defined the word, has come and gone. Call those who remain what you will; they are something different, something more.
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Wow, this is a great article.
Lots of research and thinking AND very well written.
Thanks & Bump
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very LONG but very good read, have to say i read all of it and found it very well put. GJ very informative.
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Saw this a while back when I was a lurker, and didn't read it.
Now I have (thanks to the earlier bump), and I can say that it was definitely not a waste of time.
It was a good read.
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this was an amazing article, and a great way to procrastinate on my homework
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I wish that SC2's success didn't have to mean the inevitable decay of the Broodwar scene, but times change, and this really put it all in perspective for me. Great article though...
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On February 22 2010 11:12 Alethios wrote:
On that day, spare a thought for Broodwar; Its edges smoothed, having attained grace and precision in its execution, only becoming all the more beautiful for it. Broodwar will be cut down in its prime.
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Hey thanks guys. I appreciate the kind words.
Glad you enjoyed the read.
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Now, the title of this article has a new meaning
I will keep stupid SaviOr poster next to Fischer on my wall though.
You heard about oov 90 years of progaming Alethios? He ment starcraft: brood war.
All of them ment. Man. I am so upset right now. Will there be a sponsor to next ??? MSL?
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Very interesting read, well worth the time
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Beautifully written. And a most interesting viewpoint, taken from evolutionary biology. The average gets better, so the greats appear to get worse.
Wonderful read.
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One of the best articles I've read, forever!
This article is so well written and well executed.
Despite their indisputable domination of the Broodwar scene, you can see now that those at the top of Power Rank these days are not ‘bonjwas’. The time of the bonjwa, at least as TeamLiquid has defined the word, has come and gone. Call those who remain what you will; they are something different, something more.
Love that piece of text.
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This article is probably quite old since I am fairly new to TL.net but I just had to commend the well written article
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Just thought i'd clarify a few things for those of you who may not have been around when I wrote this.
Firstly, with regards to "Shine being a case in point [in being able to take a game off of anybody]", what i'm referring to is Shine's EVER 2009 OSL run. Which involved what many considered to be inferior player, taking out the likes of Bisu, Effort, Fantasy and Stork before losing to Movie 1-3 in the semi finals.
Secondly, with the subsequent match-fixing revelations regarding a certain Zerg... please take it as read that all mention of his achievements, 'greatness' and fanbase has been preserved purely for historical purposes
I'm glad people are still enjoying reading it, despite being a tad dated now.
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This is like being hit with a cold splash of water
Such a well written article
Flash on liquidpedia is considered a Bonjwa but it just seems like he could go back and destroy all of those Bonjwa's back in their prime but he doesn't have the same presence
saVioR the name gives you chills
BoXeR
etc etc
Not the same when you say flash
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Absolutely exceptional article and masterfully written. Your comparisons are conclusions are spot on. This is the best article i have ever read on TL. Once again, congratulations for this little jewel.
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funny to read this now that flash is still tearing it up (even though he dropped last season he still got the double finals win in between then and now), bisus made a remergence, jaedong is in a mini slump and hydra came from nowhere.
and also sc2 has been out for half a year but i still prefer watching bw
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Great write up. I do not know much about cricket but I think I understand your message. Your observation about the evolution of level of gameplay were quite good. I think that the replay was a double edge sword that hastened the growth of competition. Some players were thoroughly researched for their tendencies and the opposing team will send a sniper specifically trained to counter him(or her if the case maybe).
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Your data on the evolution of level of game play (in all sports) is fantastic, this is incredibly well written and laid out, you had so many good pieces of text I do not want to fill up a huge post with them so I’ll just say great job excellent read and so worth the time.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
In need of a bump. Always worth reading again!
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I could be wrong, but doesn't a bump here only put it to the top of the 'featured threads' list? As far as i'm aware, that forum is no longer linked anywhere except the full forum list page.
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On December 20 2011 13:05 Alethios wrote:
I could be wrong, but doesn't a bump here only put it to the top of the 'featured threads' list? As far as i'm aware, that forum is no longer linked anywhere except the full forum list page.
Occasionally new people to the BW scene, like me, will look at these Final Edits. This is definitely a good one. Makes me wonder if BW will ever see another bonjwa considering the skill level of many players is so damn high. It also makes me wonder if SC2 will even have a single bonjwa to call its own.
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Great article!
And you used cricket too! That's brilliant! Its my favorite sport, and that's the thing I love about the SC2 community, its worldwide so people actually recognize cricket (I'm in America and a huge England fan)
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Such an amazing article, worth reading in 2014!
Although I kind of find it funny that just after this article got published FlaSh went into the most dominant period of any SC:BW player ever.
Record: 295 wins - 100 losses (74.68%) 2009-01-01 to 2012-01-01
or
Record: 309 wins - 103 losses (75.00%) 2009-01-01 to 2012-04-01 Just to make it look nice. - 40 months.
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On January 22 2014 18:50 thezanursic wrote:
Such an amazing article, worth reading in 2014!
Although I kind of find it funny that just after this article got published FlaSh went into the most dominant period of any SC:BW player ever.
Record: 295 wins - 100 losses (74.68%) 2009-01-01 to 2012-01-01
or
Record: 309 wins - 103 losses (75.00%) 2009-01-01 to 2012-04-01 Just to make it look nice. - 40 months.
And a re read in 2021!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/IcaruS.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Alethios/TAATO/allfour.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Alethios/TAATO/bradman23.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Alethios/TAATO/shine1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Alethios/TAATO/bradmanout.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Alethios/TAATO/rafighting.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Alethios/TAATO/botham.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.hvchronic.com/volume_2/no_1/CryingIndian.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/MSLPreview/OovScaryRecord.jpg)
