EPTYou can read more on my opinions of what he's doing in the news post...
Again, whether this is a short fad or a long time innovation only time will tell and you are 100% right not to add 'the flavour of the month' to this epic tvp post.
The Kings of TvP & Their Innovations - Page 8
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
You can read more on my opinions of what he's doing in the news post... Again, whether this is a short fad or a long time innovation only time will tell and you are 100% right not to add 'the flavour of the month' to this epic tvp post. | ||
RaGe
Belgium9949 Posts
The fast +1 may become a trend, but even that may disappear on a map where it's not easy to get your third as a terran. I must agree that he had a real different approach in TvP on katrina and blue storm than most terrans (most terrans tried to push out from 2 bases in the timing window where he is weakened by his investment). But on other maps, P will just go straight gateway macro and outexpo him if he always keeps doing the same build. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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RaGe
Belgium9949 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
but the same basic groundwork with the goliaths can be applied to many maps simply because of the protoss reaver trends | ||
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Groceryheist
United States57 Posts
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build. So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we? So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time. This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened. Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him? Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me. Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you? Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try. So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected. Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time. Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him. | ||
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JustQuitWarcraftIII
United States679 Posts
Just kidding. | ||
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RaGe
Belgium9949 Posts
On April 17 2008 05:06 FConnectionUK wrote: Flash did not bring anything new to TvP. Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build. So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we? So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time. This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened. Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him? Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me. Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you? Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try. So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected. Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time. Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him. Yeah I'm kinda writing an article that has this thought in it, and if you read the discussion on the previous page between me and Plexa, you'll see its a point where we have different opinions | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 17 2008 05:06 FConnectionUK wrote: Flash did not bring anything new to TvP. Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build. So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we? So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time. This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened. Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him? Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me. Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you? Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try. So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected. Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time. Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him. He said that after Flash beat him in GSI. And Flash was like, "Bitch, no. I'm going to cheese you many times". Stork may have come up with a perfect strategy, and Flash changed and adapted his style. But what Plexa was saying in the earlier posts is that the isn't just armory for the upgrades, the armory for the golaiths to counter the reaver harass. The fact the the armory also provides upgrades is only an added incentive and makes the build even more potent. That's the innovation. | ||
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weiliem
2071 Posts
 Stork had actually really found the counter of the dual armory gols build which means the ' Flash build' but he dint expected cheese from Flash. i think he tried to play expand taking advantage in the economy to fight the upgraded terran army when terran pushes out and in another hand use dragoons to put presure on Flash, but he got counter by a 6 fac push. they both had very fantastic macro so if Flash does not 6 facs but go for dual armories, Stork may take the game. but its always strategy which counters strategy, Flash played according to scouting and decision but Stork just wanted to win his dual armory gols build and so again went for the same build. i dunno, i am a noob | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 17 2008 05:06 FConnectionUK wrote: I think you've missed the point. I'll try lay it out as simple as i can. Flash did not bring anything new to TvP. Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build. So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we? So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time. This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened. Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him? Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me. Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you? Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try. So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected. Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time. Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him. I don't argue against the 200/200 turtle statement, infact i know that style very well being a pusan fan (and a lover of 2005 starcraft). That is Flash's midgame progression which is working really well. However, that is not innovative at all - what is innovative is his use of armory in the early game. If some Terran came for TvP advice having made 4 vultures, then switched tech to Goliaths people at teamliquid would have been like "well goliaths are really more of a lategame counter to Carriers/Arbiters - vultures are much better so you should stick this them as they are more effective against zealots and they have mines". Makes sense right? Flash changed this. With Protoss going 2 base reaver almost every single game Flash was able to justify switching to Goliaths after a couple of vultures. The investment into a reaver drop is quite subtanial, 150/100 for the tech, 200/100 for the reaver 200 for the shuttle 200 for 2 zealots, yea its not cheap. Armories cost 100/50 iirc which is comparable to the tech investment cost for protoss (ie support bay) and producing 4~ goliaths at 100/50 comes out roughly the same as a reaver drop. But the important thing is - it doesn't hinder the Terran game plan by doing this tech while foiling the Reaver drop foils the protoss game plan. Thus the Goliaths serve a good purposes warding off these Shuttles from the early game harass, right throughout. Of course, there are added benefits such as an easier transition into the midgame strategy of 200/200 turtle with 3-3 thanks to the earlier +1 upgrades which are available. Also the fast +1 pays off really quickly with the +5 boost to tanks and +2 to Vultures; really powers things up. The important thing to note is that this school of thought has been completely absent from Terran game plans in the past, but Flash is paving a new viable strategic line. Flash is changing the role of the Goliath early game and the timing of the army/upgrades. It is really a beautiful thing to watch. He perfected it for GSI and Bacchus Finals, but there are dangers in using this build associated with a low vulture count - some of the flaw here i've analysed in this post (just view the stork/flash game). However, if executed in the right proportions it is a strong build which is yet to be countered by Protoss. | ||
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
 i dont play terran haha | ||
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
Flash just happened to be on top at the time so you give him credit for something he's best at but didn't really invent at all. Lots of terrans use these builds, it's their continual use and the analysis of their faliures which produces the strict build-orders ppl like flash use now. I think a new set of maps (as we now have) will see new trends again, but they're overall trends not one person inventing a revolution. If it's that great a change then it will have a weak spot which opposing players will adapt to. | ||
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ZianG
China104 Posts
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