Disclaimer: This is a very theoretical approach to the history of the TvP matchup. I know my progaming knowledge lacks a bit on a few areas, so feel free to give me some feedback, so that I can edit the article appropriately. Also, English is not my native language, so chances that you'll find my sentence constructions enjoyable are very slim.
1. Introduction
Throughout the years, the standard gameflow of a Terran vs Protoss game has evolved alot, through a series of innovations, both strategicalwise, and ofcourse in general game mechanics-wise. Everytime a player introduced a playing style, he of course knew it better and played it better than any other player. He then entered a (short) period of domination, where the other race starts looking for an efficient countering style, while the other players of the same race start what in latin was called 'non imitatio sed amelioratio' (non imitating, but improving with additions).
If you look at the history of the TvP matchup, you can see this 'ping-pongpattern'. With this article I'm going to try to shed some Light on this ping-pongpattern, and how TvP evolved to what it became today. I'm mainly going to discuss it from a Terran point of view though.
2. The Early Days
In the pre-replay days, players relied mainly on their own creativity to determine their build order and how they adapted and reacted to a certain other style. Everything was possible, as real knowledge of the matchup had not yet spread. TvP was not yet the absolute science it sometimes seems nowadays. This, of course, had also something to do with the maps that were played back then. Most of the old maps were micro oriented (think of Jungle Story for example).
Therefore, the so-called 'ping-pongpattern' did not yet exist back then. Even after replays were introduced and the last balance patch was added, it still took a pretty long time till the first real innovation.
Standard TvP was either a 2Fac build or an FE followed by a slowpush (spread out tanks with mines and turrets). Ofcourse, there were already dominant players, with their own style. V-Gundam for example, executed the same build order almost every game, with such precision, timing and micro, that even when his opponents knew 2 weeks in advance that it was coming, they still could not stop it. Though his trademark 'gundamrush' seemed simple, it's theory was forked to deal with every single possible counter in an appropriate way, an agressive build that was highly adaptable. On the protoss side, IntoTheRain, also had his (less complex) trademark buildorder, starting with an early reaver, and controlling it with pure excellence. It was not a 'smart' build, but he sure knew how to use it, even when they saw it coming.
These guys, however, did not start a revolution, they did not make other people intensively copy them and force the other race to experiment with build-orders. You won't hear anyone ever say 'you remember, back in the day when everyone gundamrushed? that'd be so easy to counter now'.
A real TvP king arose in 2002, when Lee Yoon Yeol won the 2nd KPGA through the defeat of fOru and IntoTheRain, back then feared PvT players.
Some maps changed and became more macrofriendly, other maps stayed, and people discovered there was another way to play them too.
During this year-long period of dominance, NaDa mainly executed his Tornado terran build that also gave him the nickname he still has today.
His Tornado terran build featured a fast expansion covered by siege mode first, followed by a 2 base-macro build. He constantly pumped tanks from 2 factories while pumping vultures from the other ones, and actively harassing with those vultures. NaDa's (back then) extraordinary multitasking made it possible for him to harass with high efficiency while macro'ing perfectly. The vulture harass was a huge burden for the Protosses, realizing they needed a third base in order not to get outmacroed by the Terran, but they had to protect all three bases from these vultureraids.
NaDa followed this lengthy harass up by a fast timing push with a huge tank force right before Protoss could get his zealspeed up.
Between May 2002 and March 2003, NaDa only lost 3 TvP games.
Protosses had a hard time countering it. Of course, various cheeses could always be used, but NaDa had excellent scouting and game feel, and they failed more often than not.
Some may say it's the Bonjwa Curse, but after March 2003, Protoss seemed to have found the counter. They went for a somewhat later third expo, making it easier to deal with the vulture harass, and a earlier citadel (often paired with a zealbomb shuttle). Protosses like Reach and Kingdom were the only ones able to get this right for a while, but NaDa's dominance had been broken. He remained a very strong player nonetheless.
It didn't take long till the next dominance though, poor protosses. We all know who's coming up, he's strong, he's young, he's a beast and he's not Manifesto7.
4. 2004: The Gorilla age
iloveoov's prime was the most brutal dominance the professional brood war scene has yet experienced. Late 2003 he raged through TriGem MSL, followed by the CEN Game MSL and the SPRIS MSL. Then he continued to win his 1st OSL, an epic one, EVER 2004.
Protoss builds, then concentrated on the FE followed by timing rush, fell to iloveoov's completely macro-oriented gamestyle. iloveoov played defensively after FE, with practically no vult harass. Instead, he invested his gorilla cash in another command center, and got his third base as fast as he deemed he could.
Eventhough his TvZ was more untoucheable than his TvP back then, no Protoss was considered a favourite over Oov.
Almost every single one of them tried to prevent Oov from going into his crazy macro mode, with timed attacks, but Oov adapted well to the Protoss build and got his expansion always JUST in time.
Then, he reached the EVER2004 OSL Semi-finals, where he met no one other than Reach. Man vs Beast ensued. Everyone remembers the game on Mercury. If you haven't seen it, read this:
It was very hard. I felt so down after loosing to Reach in the first game by units. Reach didn't do harassing or any other thing but went purely mass units and all I could do was blcok,block,block. Later in the game I was disgusted with his unit production. I was so surprised. I never lost a game with mass units vs mass units.
That's right, instead of looking for a hole in iloveoov's macro builds, Reach tried to beat him in his own field, macro, and he succeeded. Oov went on to win the series with a bit of luck, as he says himself in the interview, but his TvP was no longer invincible.
iloveoov and NaDa remained the strongest Terran players on the progaming rosters (although anyone could make a statement about XellOs here), till around Spring 2005, when, due to the death of NaDa's dad, NaDa went into a slump.
TvP was a stable matchup, and no real domination was ever reestablished after EVER2004 in TvP. There were however, still a few major innovations.
5. Baby Bear Terran
In 2005 rumours were flying around about Ddang[gm], nowadays more known as Midas[gm]. He was said to have the best semi-pro TvP around, and that at the age of 17. He went on to win numerous games with his then-called "Midas rush". Today we refer to this 'rush' as FD-Terran. To that day, Protosses had 2 very clear forks in their build: one to deal with an agressive 2fact-build and one to deal with a defensive FE-build. Midas used his FD-rush, which features a quick tank, 4 rines and a vulture with spider mines, to fake a 2FacRush, and then safely, but very quickly, expand.
Terrans quickly started adopting this build, that was unlike NaDa's Tornado build, not so difficult to master in order of timing. Protosses were having a hard time. They needed to expand quickly, they needed obs vs mines, and an adequate goon number to stop the tank-rine-vulture agression. Goon micro had however improved a lot over the years, and they found out that this was only possible if they didnt make the obs till much later. 2Gate Powergoon was born.
2Gate Powergoon doesn't really hard counter FD-Terran though. It gives Protoss a quick expansion, but also gives Terran a quick expansion. A new standard gameflow of TvP was established, one that still determines the average game you play on ICCup, or the progame you watch on your GOMPlayer.
5. Conclusion
The TvP game you play today is an offspring of all these evolutions. Of course, you don't always FD. And, of course, a 2 base timing rush still works. Build-orders co-exist, but were harder to counter during certain periods. Do also not forget that these evolutions relied heavily on map evolutions. Remember how Sin Cultivation Period brought TvP 3 years back in time?
But, to me, it seems like TvP is one of the hardest matchups to master strategically-wise. You have so many options, yet the smallest changes can introduce huge differences. And that's why I like TvP, it's a matchup no person will ever COMPLETELY understand, otherwise he'd always be one step ahead of the other player.
would like to watch that game on mercury reach vs oov but the TLPD vod doesnt work, then i downloaded the video and it doesnt work either, gom player pops up with some error message.
Great article. I read it all the way through. Nice to see the evolution I just got back into starcraft 5 months ago and started watching proscene 3 months ago so this was a nice history lesson.
Interesting. I haven't followed many progames until recently, nor did I used to follow TvP. So it's interesting to understand when these builds were dominant and how the flow evolved.
Thanks for the awesome feedback guys. I was first gonna implement map changes and their influence on the matchup changes, but I didn't have enough time, maybe I'll change that later. Changed the TLPD errors too.
On December 04 2007 05:32 Rage wrote: Thanks for the awesome feedback guys. I was first gonna implement map changes and their influence on the matchup changes, but I didn't have Enough time, maybe I'll change that later. Changed the TLPD errors too.
Not that it's a problem or anything but if you actually do care to change the TLPD errors then I thought I'd just point out that you've also got Much
FD - Meaning "fake double" (As in fake 2 Fact rush). Terran rushes with similar forces from a Gundam, but from 1 Factory only, with the intention of expanding immediately.
On December 04 2007 07:50 TryThis wrote: just wondering, where would you fit Boxer in this?
eventhough boxer had some innovative strategies for TvP over the years, he never revolutionized something in TvP. He invented TvZ in its entirety though haha
You know how they say Protoss wins fall StarLeagues?
"Boxer is the Legend of the Fall."
On the Reach/iloveoov line: I think the proverbial nail in the coffin for iloveoov's TvP dominance was not the Mercury game [though it was quite revolutionary] but rather the 3-0 thrashing Reach gave oov in MSL a bit afterwards. Especially that Luna game. The Requiem game was soooo gooooood
On December 04 2007 08:15 Last Romantic wrote: You know how they say Protoss wins fall StarLeagues?
"Boxer is the Legend of the Fall."
On the Reach/iloveoov line: I think the proverbial nail in the coffin for iloveoov's TvP dominance was not the Mercury game [though it was quite revolutionary] but rather the 3-0 thrashing Reach gave oov in MSL a bit afterwards. Especially that Luna game. The Requiem game was soooo gooooood
Hmm you have a point there. The mercury game just seemed symbolic, because it was the first in its kind, with this style of mid and lategame play. the start of a new gameflow. but yeah his dominance seemed to continue because he won the osl (finals were TvT though, and as he said in the interview, he was lucky in the semifinals). I think that if Reach and Oov played another BO3 1 week after the EVER2004 OSL, reach wouldve won 3-0 too. Also the MSL maps differed from the OSL maps in terms of style and balance
On December 04 2007 04:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: Nowadays a more modern trend is to fake FD, enticing a 2gate hard goon rush into FE, and then hitting with an early 2fact tank timing attack.
On December 04 2007 04:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: Nowadays a more modern trend is to fake FD, enticing a 2gate hard goon rush into FE, and then hitting with an early 2fact tank timing attack.
FD stands for Fake Double no?
yeah, what he means is you show him 1tank 4 rine and 1 vult, make him 2gate powergoon FE, and then roll over him with 2fact tank/vult, while he has 5-6 goons and no obs
On December 04 2007 09:54 RowdierBob wrote: How about St.Eagle?
I'd say he had a fairly significant influence
hmm don't really know him / his style enlighten me
He's credited with popularising vults and tanks in TvP. There should be some old 1.08 reps around. There are also some cool Boxer vs Spunky reps of rines vs P before metal was the accepted method of tvping.
Nice read! I miss some of the earlier stuff but as it is not well documented and not well known (not like I remember a lot of it myself) it is not that important. I'll write things I recall anyway:
The development of the "metal" terran play vs protoss is often credited to several western battle.net players, among them NTT. Other players such as Slayer, Crexis, probably Zileas because he had a great strategic mind and used many of the strategies we see today as early as the bw beta.
Hearcutter's deep six, while rather silly-looking these days, was a nice strat to counter early protoss.
And Boxer's dropship play changed TvP a lot as well. Everybody and their grandmother did the 2 tank dropship play, the 3 fac tank and the island goliath play back in his heydays
st.Eagle was once said to be the best terran in the world, much based on his great metal usage, but calling him the inventor would be hard to defend. Nowadays he is probably most famous for that fantastic game vs Garimto on silentvortex during sky 2002.
On December 04 2007 09:54 RowdierBob wrote: How about St.Eagle?
I'd say he had a fairly significant influence
hmm don't really know him / his style enlighten me
He's credited with popularising vults and tanks in TvP. There should be some old 1.08 reps around. There are also some cool Boxer vs Spunky reps of rines vs P before metal was the accepted method of tvping.
Err if I remember correctly Boxer used mass marines to counter carriers in most of those games. Was rather cool to watch the interceptors die -_-
Micro-oriented players utilize harassment and timing attacks to win games, thereby relying on their micro to create advantages
macro-oriented players focus more on expansion timing and solidity, relying on their macro being stronger than their opponent and their harassment defense being good enough to reach critical mass before their opponent can deal with it
that's a really simplistic explanation because starcraft has much more depth to it, but that's the easiest way to explain it
Boxer is almost purely micro-oriented. He wins games by controlling his units really really well, he can do amazing things that other players, even progamers, can't do, and he can win games with his unit control.
Oov is almost purely macro-oriented. His main way of winning games is producing more units than his opponents, and his way of doing this is taking more expansions, defending better and when the time is right move out with a large army to defeat his opponent.
In-game example: Boxer will face a zerg with 12 marines and a few medics and control them insanely well to kill many many zerg units. Oov is the same sitation is likely to use 36 marines with medics and overpower the zerg head on.
On December 04 2007 11:00 Polar wrote: Pouvez-vous la traduire?
that wouldnt be in order with the ten commandments. also im not a frenchspeaking belgian, eventhough my knowledge of french is probably enough to translate it
On December 04 2007 10:38 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: st.Eagle was once said to be the best terran in the world, much based on his great metal usage, but calling him the inventor would be hard to defend. Nowadays he is probably most famous for that fantastic game vs Garimto on silentvortex during sky 2002.
I'm like an addict. Everytime someone mentions a famous game of past, I feel this intensive need to go watch it right away. And unless I do so, I have no peace in my mind. So a good article like this one and its comments can take me a night, let me tell you.
Anyway, are you sure it was Sky 2002? I can't find the game.
On December 04 2007 07:50 TryThis wrote: just wondering, where would you fit Boxer in this?
eventhough boxer had some innovative strategies for TvP over the years, he never revolutionized something in TvP. He invented TvZ in its entirety though haha
The "boxer-drop" with 1 fact, starport 2 tanks with siege drop. But maybe it wasn't big enough.
Just a comment on the Oov vs. Reach game, I thought the only reason why Oov lost his macro war was because a few of his 10 factories did not produce because they were so tightly packed. He got the unit exit blocked error instead of receiving units.
On December 04 2007 10:38 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Hearcutter's deep six, while rather silly-looking these days, was a nice strat to counter early protoss.
Now I've never heard of that, care to explain?
Also, I'm pretty sure metal usage was invented pre1.08. I remember watching replays when 1.08 came out, and wondering what could protoss do against that I also remember reading a tvp guide pre1.08 written by a (german?) player called Thor, who was considered among the best back then iirc, which described metal usage.
Who's the best TvP right now though? I mean, Midas is slumping pretty bad right now, Mind has proven himself, but not against the likes of Stork or even an on form Bisu (using better builds, situationally at least). What about Sea? I heard some people talk about how he, like Bisu, relies on insane mechanics to drive his PvT. However, not playing Terran (I'm going to correct this soon enough), I fail to understand what he does exactly. I do however know he's a macro monstrosity, I saw a 30 minute game of him against Bisu on Luna. They were at a complete stalemate for the duration and each held half the map. Bisu conceded, I'm not sure why, but Sea and him displayed some awesome macro.
On December 04 2007 15:39 IaniAniaN wrote: Who's the best TvP right now though? I mean, Midas is slumping pretty bad right now, Mind has proven himself, but not against the likes of Stork or even an on form Bisu (using better builds, situationally at least). What about Sea? I heard some people talk about how he, like Bisu, relies on insane mechanics to drive his PvT. However, not playing Terran (I'm going to correct this soon enough), I fail to understand what he does exactly. I do however know he's a macro monstrosity, I saw a 30 minute game of him against Bisu on Luna. They were at a complete stalemate for the duration and each held half the map. Bisu conceded, I'm not sure why, but Sea and him displayed some awesome macro.
What, the Luna game with Bisu bottom right, Terran top left? Lots of goons lost to mines? The Terran in that particular replay is actually Mind :x
[He uses Sea.So. I checked the key signature/action distribution, it seems to match Mind's]
On December 04 2007 15:54 KTFKentatsu wrote: uhh... im a noob... educate me... what's FD?
Fake double, it forces the P to make 2 gateways to be able to deal with the first Marine/1vult/1tank attack, the attack isn't meant to win the game, but it forces 2 gates and allows for a safer expo.
LastRomantic, thanks for telling me, I was always impressed by that T's macro, and I thought it was Sea[Shield] (I think that's what was written). Maybe I would have given Mind more respect before the MSL finals if I had known it was really him, sick macro, but inconclusive game however (Bisu refused to tech to arbiters or something like that.
Could you include something about the rise and fall of wall-ins, slow pushes, dropship builds, and 2 fact vulture openings in amateur and pro level play? I'm confused about why people stopped walling in, why didn't they stop earlier, why they used to wall in TvT as well, why people stop going for a slow push like in the famous old boxer replays, when and why it stopped being used, and why it didn't die out earlier.
On December 04 2007 17:18 ahole-surprise wrote: Where can I find this replay of Sea.so (Mind) vs Bisu on Luna?
Search the forums for a Bisu replay compilation, most of his stuff's there. I was actually surprised on how Much faster Bisu got in 2006 as compared to 2005, he used to be a 260 apm player who lost to Pusan (330), now he's out there raping sAviOr and Xell0s at about 310 apm.
On December 04 2007 10:38 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: Hearcutter's deep six, while rather silly-looking these days, was a nice strat to counter early protoss.
Now I've never heard of that, care to explain?
Also, I'm pretty sure metal usage was invented pre1.08. I remember watching replays when 1.08 came out, and wondering what could protoss do against that I also remember reading a tvp guide pre1.08 written by a (german?) player called Thor, who was considered among the best back then iirc, which described metal usage.
I believe Thor was canadian(or american) If it was [s]thor aka Unfaithful aka guy who went to Korea with Pillars and Maynard for a while. I think he played zerg and protoss. Maybe random then.
To me Sea seems like the best TvPer technically, but he is outsmarted some times hence he doesnt win as much as he could potentially.
On December 04 2007 04:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: Nowadays a more modern trend is to fake FD, enticing a 2gate hard goon rush into FE, and then hitting with an early 2fact tank timing attack.
FD stands for Fake Double no?
yeah, what he means is you show him 1tank 4 rine and 1 vult, make him 2gate powergoon FE, and then roll over him with 2fact tank/vult, while he has 5-6 goons and no obs
I don't know where you got the idea of 4 rine from. Its always at least 5, usually 6 or 7 marines. Also Boxer does deserve some mention. He was the first person to effectively use the 2 tank/dropship build. At his peak he was downright SCARY with the build. Often doing very large amount of damage even when the opponent was completely expecting it. His micro was just that much better than his peers. Also you could make a case for crediting TheMarine with inventing/perfecting the proper slow push technique. All in all though, a fantastic write up. Thanks.
On December 04 2007 04:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: Nowadays a more modern trend is to fake FD, enticing a 2gate hard goon rush into FE, and then hitting with an early 2fact tank timing attack.
FD stands for Fake Double no?
yeah, what he means is you show him 1tank 4 rine and 1 vult, make him 2gate powergoon FE, and then roll over him with 2fact tank/vult, while he has 5-6 goons and no obs
I don't know where you got the idea of 4 rine from. Its always at least 5, usually 6 or 7 marines. Also Boxer does deserve some mention. He was the first person to effectively use the 2 tank/dropship build. At his peak he was downright SCARY with the build. Often doing very large amount of damage even when the opponent was completely expecting it. His micro was just that much better than his peers. Also you could make a case for crediting TheMarine with inventing/perfecting the proper slow push technique. All in all though, a fantastic write up. Thanks.
I don't play enough T to know exactly, but I've seen 4 plenty of times from my opponents.
Great article. I'd like to see a similar article from the Protoss point of view and the popularization of arbiter tech and then why everyone seems to be relying more and more on carriers these days.
Great read rage! Allways like to roll up some memorys and i believe other reader who're not that interested in this match up like write ups like that to.
I completly agree with you on the strategic depth of tvp and the choices one got nowadays. That's why timing pushes are so crutial these days. They have to come just in time to succeed. I kinda had the feeling that 2fact punches had a good comback when iris used them very precise.
The windows overall have gotten very small. It's like you can see how a certain strategy triggers a countdown and progamers hit right when they have to. Like a knife that when used properly cuts very deep.
On December 04 2007 17:37 iamke55 wrote: Could you include something about the rise and fall of wall-ins, slow pushes, dropship builds, and 2 fact vulture openings in amateur and pro level play? I'm confused about why people stopped walling in, why didn't they stop earlier, why they used to wall in TvT as well, why people stop going for a slow push like in the famous old boxer replays, when and why it stopped being used, and why it didn't die out earlier.
hmm i could do that yeah.. I'll see if i have time any of these days
On December 04 2007 14:33 Cambium wrote: Very nicely written.
Just a comment on the Oov vs. Reach game, I thought the only reason why Oov lost his macro war was because a few of his 10 factories did not produce because they were so tightly packed. He got the unit exit blocked error instead of receiving units.
On December 04 2007 14:33 Cambium wrote: Very nicely written.
Just a comment on the Oov vs. Reach game, I thought the only reason why Oov lost his macro war was because a few of his 10 factories did not produce because they were so tightly packed. He got the unit exit blocked error instead of receiving units.
Do you have the replay or how do you know?
i think his top left factory got that error, but he floated it a bit later, no?
in 1998 before bw come out, zileas (from USA) and stratuss (canadian) wrote articles for starcraft gamegurus.com They were the first wrote about metal terran.i still have the web pages from 1998.after bw came,game became popular in korean.
some strats from stratus from 1998 about tvp Terran vs Protoss: One of the standard anti Protoss strats is the tank/Goliath/vulture attack. You'll need 3 factories. Approach on the Protoss town with vultures first, just outside of its view, lay your spidermines as your tanks and goliaths slowly catch up, when they arrive the place should be secure. Remember to keep some spider mines so when you encroach on the enemy base you can lay more mines around your tanks or replace mines that have blown up. Slowly, sieging and unsieging your tanks, with the goliaths beside the tanks, keep going in and soon you'll be in the middle of the Protoss base. The goliaths keep reavers (dropping from a shuttle) away from your tanks and also take hits really well, the vultures kill the zealots/dragoons with their mines and the tanks help kill the dragoons/templars/cannons. Remember this strat is very adjustable if your opponent is building massive amounts of scouts build more goliaths, if he has a lot of zealots get more vultures, if he has a lot of reavers and shuttles or dragoons get more tanks.
and some from zileas
Used well, in a factory rush, goliaths will cause a Protoss serious pain, by preventing them from using Zileas-like reaver tricks, while at the same time pushing up onto their base and killing it. Keep in mind that this rush is a primarily anti-protoss strat. It takes 1 barracks, and 2 or 3 factories. Make tanks out of 1, goliaths out of another, and vultures out of both from time to time or out of the third if you went 3 factories. Marines are not necessary, but make a few early in case of a hard zealot rush. You will need siege and mines at least, vulture spreed is also a nice touch. Once you have about 4 tanks, some goliaths, and some vultures, its time to move out. One of the weaknesses to this strat is as soon as you move out. You can be caught with your pants down if a reaver is dropped back at your main now.
and garimto was the first to win without an observer whole game against marine in 2001 sky osl turney on map neo vertigo.he even didnot make a dragoon too in the whole game.it was the best and most interesting game i had ever watched. sorry no vod avable http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/5235_GARIMTO_vs_TheMarine
Reach name was heart with his match against boxer on slientwortex.he was the first who made 2 shuttle on slientwortex.that map was non-turret map.
On December 04 2007 05:29 Chill wrote: Interesting. I haven't followed many progames until recently, nor did I used to follow TvP. So it's interesting to understand when these builds were dominant and how the flow evolved.
Thanks for this article.
And still you're a mod, lol
Anyways great article! Nada + Oov = Otter + Monkey = High five!
I think you forgot to mention Nadas dropship + tank usage on LT especially, though. Him and Boxer used to do the 1 fac/port opening and toying with the tosses using only a DS and 2 tanks, or they would just fly it to their main, siege and fuck up as many probes as possible.
What’s to say about the changes of TvP in the last year? I haven’t seen that many games, so maybe my conclusions are wrong, but I remember a time in the middle of this year, when almost every Protoss with carriers was able to defeat the Terran. The Terrans always seemed to retreat their army and try to defend their base when the first carriers showed up. In this way, it was easy for the Protoss to gain map control. But in the last weeks, I think, this has changed. Terrans no longer pull back, but move forward with their tanks and vultures to kill the Protoss’ expansions. Thus they put up with the carriers destroying parts of their base while pumping Goliaths. But the Terrans ground army seems to be faster in finishing off the enemy than the carriers and at the end the Terran takes the win.
On December 15 2007 00:03 Enthalpy wrote: What’s to say about the changes of TvP in the last year? I haven’t seen that many games, so maybe my conclusions are wrong, but I remember a time in the middle of this year, when almost every Protoss with carriers was able to defeat the Terran. The Terrans always seemed to retreat their army and try to defend their base when the first carriers showed up. In this way, it was easy for the Protoss to gain map control. But in the last weeks, I think, this has changed. Terrans no longer pull back, but move forward with their tanks and vultures to kill the Protoss’ expansions. Thus they put up with the carriers destroying parts of their base while pumping Goliaths. But the Terrans ground army seems to be faster in finishing off the enemy than the carriers and at the end the Terran takes the win.
these situations are completely situation-dependant. there hasn't been a twist, they just react differently because their economical/mapcontrol/unitsuperiority/gradesuperiority situation is different
On December 15 2007 00:03 Enthalpy wrote: What’s to say about the changes of TvP in the last year? I haven’t seen that many games, so maybe my conclusions are wrong, but I remember a time in the middle of this year, when almost every Protoss with carriers was able to defeat the Terran. The Terrans always seemed to retreat their army and try to defend their base when the first carriers showed up. In this way, it was easy for the Protoss to gain map control. But in the last weeks, I think, this has changed. Terrans no longer pull back, but move forward with their tanks and vultures to kill the Protoss’ expansions. Thus they put up with the carriers destroying parts of their base while pumping Goliaths. But the Terrans ground army seems to be faster in finishing off the enemy than the carriers and at the end the Terran takes the win.
I wouldnt really say that. Just one game comes to mind already: Midas vs Stork on Neo Forte, more than a year ago certainly. here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/562_Midas_vs_Stork sick game, I used to have a vod...
Flash is pioneering the whole Goliaths-early trend for TvP, which not only defends well against Reaver harass and Zealot bombs, but primes him for the two Protoss late-game weapons, Carriers and Arbiters. He's also bringing back the heavy usage of Science Vessels and EMP into games (especially those that involve Arbiters), as Gol/Tank < Vult/Tank for an Arbiter-based late-game build. The Science Vessels tend to equalize it out.
This is combined with a turtle-heavy early -> midgame transition, as this Goliath build is much weaker to early pressure than a Vulture build would be.
Id agree that Flash is an innovator, but its still early. If he can continue playing strong games and doing well in TvP (with or without his mech build), then he might earn a spot here.
To be frank, Flash hasn't pioneered anything yet. He simply won a tournament using a strategy that he is good at using.
If other terran players are able to copy his build and seamlessly pwn other Protoss players on imba maps like Katrina, then we can consider Flash to have innovated another change in the way TvP is played.
Until then, hes just a wonder kid with a good strategic sense.
On March 04 2008 10:14 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote: To be frank, Flash hasn't pioneered anything yet. He simply won a tournament using a strategy that he is good at using.
If other terran players are able to copy his build and seamlessly pwn other Protoss players on imba maps like Katrina, then we can consider Flash to have innovated another change in the way TvP is played.
Until then, hes just a wonder kid with a good strategic sense.
True, but it still made me cringe when Tasteless called him a "very orthodox player".
On March 04 2008 10:14 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote: To be frank, Bisu hasn't pioneered anything yet. He simply won a tournament using a strategy that he is good at using.
If other protoss players are able to copy his build and seamlessly pwn other Zerg players on imba maps like Katrinas, then we can consider Bisu to have innovated another change in the way ZvP is played.
Until then, hes just a wonder kid with a good strategic sense.
This sounds pretty much like teamliquid around March 3rd, 2007.
I think the early Armory trend is going to take hold. Upgrades and goliaths early is good play, which as a Toss player, I'm really not looking forward to.
On March 04 2008 10:14 FeArTeHsCoUrGe wrote: To be frank, Bisu hasn't pioneered anything yet. He simply won a tournament using a strategy that he is good at using.
If other protoss players are able to copy his build and seamlessly pwn other Zerg players on imba maps like Katrinas, then we can consider Bisu to have innovated another change in the way ZvP is played.
Until then, hes just a wonder kid with a good strategic sense.
This sounds pretty much like teamliquid around March 3rd, 2007.
Guess what? Other Protoss players did copy his build. And it was successful. Therefore we were able to say Bisu pioneered that build.
If other players can copy Flash's build vs Protoss with success, then we can say Flash is a pioneer as well. As of yet, we will have to see.
Oh, and unlike Bisu, I doubt Flash will slump once this build is cracked.
Bisu's build did cracked having the zerg players now going for early mass hydra harassment killing Bisu in early game making him losing so many games already. and now Bisu is forced to swap back to the reaver play instead of the dt play...look at the previous games and u will know.....but what we found out is that, he is still going for the mass corsairs, maybe that is the thing he made protoss players change, going for mass corsairs.
but Flash, i do agree. he will be changing terran player's playing style on imbalance protoss maps like Katrina. his early gols build really counter carriers well making even the best PvT player, Stork also losing to him. but in balance maps like pyton, NaDa's build is still the best.
While Flash has shown innovative play during the past months, and yes he has adapter perfectly to both Blue Storm and Katrina, this just proves that he was the best prepared terran on those maps. He indeed adapted his build order, but not in that sense that it will prove to become a revolution. Unless Blue Storm and Katrina will stay in the map pool, or other similar maps will join the pool, Flash himself will also move on and stop using that build, as it has its vurnerabilities.
On the upside: Flash has certainly proven that he can prepare like no one else. He has only played this game for 3 years and learned so fast. I think because he can learn so fast, he can also fast adopt his play to a new map, 'learn the map' fast. While I dont see a future for Flash as innovator of TvP, I certainly see a future of him as "Perfect Terran" (sorry Xellos) , preparing perfectly, having the game in his control permanently. And I think this flexibility will prove to be very useful in the future, as OGN and MBC seem to come up with crazier and crazier maps every single time.
I might always just be proven wrong, maybe Flash is just insanely good at vs Carrier play, and that made his season. Only time will tell I guess, and when you will quote this post in a month or 6 and prove me completely wrong, I will be surprised, but not completely amazed. Strategic player analysis only goes so far.
So I hope you guys kinda see why I refuse to add him to my post (yet?), and I hope you guys can somewhat agree on my vision of Flash's play.
i disagree rage, i think that Flash is moving TvP in easily distinguishable new directions. ie its not just altering the timings here and there its a real solid change. He is changing the role of goliaths in TvP from vs Carrier (/ arbiter) only to something which can be incorporated into a standard terran army. This has weaknesses yes (see stork vs flash @ blue storm in the recent OSL + my analysis) but those weaknesses are becoming less and less evident.
You can read more on my opinions of what he's doing in the news post...
Again, whether this is a short fad or a long time innovation only time will tell and you are 100% right not to add 'the flavour of the month' to this epic tvp post.
So you think the role of goliaths in his army wasn't completely mapdependant? On both Katrina and Blue Storm shuttle harass is pretty common but becomes kind of inefficient with early goliaths, as will any form of trying to break the early third with a shuttle goon "bulldog" break (on Blue Storm that is, that'd be worthless on Katrina). But other than that, if P doesn't arbiter/carrier, I see no reason to pump goliaths. They may seem strong but are way less costefficient than vultures. The fast +1 may become a trend, but even that may disappear on a map where it's not easy to get your third as a terran.
I must agree that he had a real different approach in TvP on katrina and blue storm than most terrans (most terrans tried to push out from 2 bases in the timing window where he is weakened by his investment). But on other maps, P will just go straight gateway macro and outexpo him if he always keeps doing the same build.
Actually Rage, if you look at the past X maps (including, but not limited to Peaks of Baekdu and Python) Protoss almost invariably open with some form of reaver build. Thus, Flash's build can be extended to basically standard modern protoss play. The first couple gollies are basically there to stop that harass and the fast +1.
this build indeed would serve its purpose well on PoB, but less so on Python. I think we'll just have to see how it turns out, I still believe mass expo'ing vs this build on Python would destroy it
i agree, it is a build very suited to bluestorm but the same basic groundwork with the goliaths can be applied to many maps simply because of the protoss reaver trends
Flash did not bring anything new to TvP. Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build.
So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we?
So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time.
This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened.
Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him?
Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me.
Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you?
Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try.
So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected.
Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time.
Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him.
On April 17 2008 05:06 FConnectionUK wrote: Flash did not bring anything new to TvP. Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build.
So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we?
So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time.
This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened.
Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him?
Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me.
Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you?
Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try.
So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected.
Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time.
Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him.
Yeah I'm kinda writing an article that has this thought in it, and if you read the discussion on the previous page between me and Plexa, you'll see its a point where we have different opinions
On April 17 2008 05:06 FConnectionUK wrote: Flash did not bring anything new to TvP. Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build.
So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we?
So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time.
This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened.
Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him?
Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me.
Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you?
Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try.
So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected.
Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time.
Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him.
He said that after Flash beat him in GSI. And Flash was like, "Bitch, no. I'm going to cheese you many times". Stork may have come up with a perfect strategy, and Flash changed and adapted his style.
But what Plexa was saying in the earlier posts is that the isn't just armory for the upgrades, the armory for the golaiths to counter the reaver harass. The fact the the armory also provides upgrades is only an added incentive and makes the build even more potent. That's the innovation.
in my opinion, i think Stork had actually really found the counter of the dual armory gols build which means the 'Flash build' but he dint expected cheese from Flash. i think he tried to play expand taking advantage in the economy to fight the upgraded terran army when terran pushes out and in another hand use dragoons to put presure on Flash, but he got counter by a 6 fac push. they both had very fantastic macro so if Flash does not 6 facs but go for dual armories, Stork may take the game. but its always strategy which counters strategy, Flash played according to scouting and decision but Stork just wanted to win his dual armory gols build and so again went for the same build. i dunno, i am a noob
On April 17 2008 05:06 FConnectionUK wrote: Flash did not bring anything new to TvP. Dual armory existed at the height of Oov/Midas era. And they abused it thorougly to claim as the best TvPers of their time respectively. Especially Midas. Midas is known for his "Great Wall of China" attitude: taking over the middle, total map control, more expansions while applying pressure at the same time, and finally 200/200 3:3:3 roll out. Dual armories is nothing new, just forgotten overused build.
So how did such build get forgotten? Just ask professor Stork. He sure knew how to abuse this BO for his own advantage. While all the rest of protoss stayed busy trying to defend helpless expansions, Stork revived yet ANOTHER old fashion style, Intotherainbow, Shit-in-your-face-over-and-over style. Forget your 2nd expansion. Tech to reaver, hold the terran and tech to carriers. If terran was planning to 200/200 gay turtle, SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS! CARRIERS! And guess what? We don't see Midas anymore, do we?
So going back to the main point, Flash's dual armory. New? Not! Howeverrrrrr!~ There IS a significant difference. Timing. Back at Oov/Midas era, the timing to push out was when the upgrade first reached 1:0:0. Now it's changed. It's 2:1:1. If toss was trying to tech too early, you will be punished vs well upped Mech vs no up Carriers. If toss was trying to expand too fast, again, you will be punished for lacking units vs well upped terran. And this is the new old trend brought back from back in time.
This is why perhaps some of people did not appreciate Stork vs Flash finals as much as you should. Flash is the perfect deceptionist. In the pre-interview to the finals this is what actually happened.
Caster: Stork! You are the best PvTer of the time! But Flash has shown us his dominance with dual armories. How will you possibly stop him?
Stork: I am prepared. Dual armories will be useless against me.
Caster: Flash, it seems like Stork has analyzed your strategy. How will this affect you?
Flash: My dual armories build orders are perfect. There are no weakness in my build. I dare him to try.
So the final begins. Not once did we see dual armory. Later in the TheMarine's Stim interview, what Stork prepared for the final was revealed by his teammate, FirebatHero, his practice partner for the finals. Firebathero: Uh oh, Stork only prepared for early-mid strategy. To overwhelm Flash from the start. Cheeses were totally unexpected.
Build orders comes and goes. But never disappears just like in Fashion. Today's fashion will be old fashion and old fashion will be new fashion again. Just refined. Flash is just a renegade of his time.
Edit: Remember Stork 3 days after the Final vs Flash? You can see what he's been preparing. In all 7 games, not once, you'll see him go carriers. He's been CRYING out to the whole world, what he prepared for Flash. His anger, his regrets, and his sorrow. Those 7 games made my heart ache for him.
I think you've missed the point. I'll try lay it out as simple as i can.
I don't argue against the 200/200 turtle statement, infact i know that style very well being a pusan fan (and a lover of 2005 starcraft). That is Flash's midgame progression which is working really well. However, that is not innovative at all - what is innovative is his use of armory in the early game. If some Terran came for TvP advice having made 4 vultures, then switched tech to Goliaths people at teamliquid would have been like "well goliaths are really more of a lategame counter to Carriers/Arbiters - vultures are much better so you should stick this them as they are more effective against zealots and they have mines". Makes sense right?
Flash changed this. With Protoss going 2 base reaver almost every single game Flash was able to justify switching to Goliaths after a couple of vultures. The investment into a reaver drop is quite subtanial, 150/100 for the tech, 200/100 for the reaver 200 for the shuttle 200 for 2 zealots, yea its not cheap. Armories cost 100/50 iirc which is comparable to the tech investment cost for protoss (ie support bay) and producing 4~ goliaths at 100/50 comes out roughly the same as a reaver drop. But the important thing is - it doesn't hinder the Terran game plan by doing this tech while foiling the Reaver drop foils the protoss game plan. Thus the Goliaths serve a good purposes warding off these Shuttles from the early game harass, right throughout.
Of course, there are added benefits such as an easier transition into the midgame strategy of 200/200 turtle with 3-3 thanks to the earlier +1 upgrades which are available. Also the fast +1 pays off really quickly with the +5 boost to tanks and +2 to Vultures; really powers things up.
The important thing to note is that this school of thought has been completely absent from Terran game plans in the past, but Flash is paving a new viable strategic line. Flash is changing the role of the Goliath early game and the timing of the army/upgrades. It is really a beautiful thing to watch. He perfected it for GSI and Bacchus Finals, but there are dangers in using this build associated with a low vulture count - some of the flaw here i've analysed in this post (just view the stork/flash game). However, if executed in the right proportions it is a strong build which is yet to be countered by Protoss.
i don't think you can say flash revolutionised terran when it was something any terran would do in response to the real revolution which was toss going FE>Reaver every single game.
Flash just happened to be on top at the time so you give him credit for something he's best at but didn't really invent at all. Lots of terrans use these builds, it's their continual use and the analysis of their faliures which produces the strict build-orders ppl like flash use now.
I think a new set of maps (as we now have) will see new trends again, but they're overall trends not one person inventing a revolution. If it's that great a change then it will have a weak spot which opposing players will adapt to.
On April 24 2008 00:26 Resonate wrote: i don't think you can say flash revolutionised terran when it was something any terran would do in response to the real revolution which was toss going FE>Reaver every single game.
Flash just happened to be on top at the time so you give him credit for something he's best at but didn't really invent at all. Lots of terrans use these builds, it's their continual use and the analysis of their faliures which produces the strict build-orders ppl like flash use now.
I think a new set of maps (as we now have) will see new trends again, but they're overall trends not one person inventing a revolution. If it's that great a change then it will have a weak spot which opposing players will adapt to.
While i agree that a change of maps will bring about new styles and such, the one issue i have is that 2base reaver has been around since Bisu's OSL appearance in 2006 (Shinhan 2 iirc) and had never been countered by anything like Flash's build. Generally Terran's opted to use turrets and/or wraith to do the same job as the goliaths
you're slightly wrong plexa in that flash's build that we're discussing is tailored to making a reaver drop a substantial investment by way of making it completely useless
a terran who doesnt make any goliaths (basically countless thousands of games) against a reaver drop is sinking time and money into defending it. it was never a substantial investment to reaver drop in those games, as even if the reaver does little to no damage, the protoss is completely safe to pull even economically. this is because of two things:
first, the reaver harass forces a terran to spend extra resources on properly defending against it, resources which go to depots and units otherwise, creating a more streamlined, powerful build.
second, even a terran who successfully repels a reaver drop without any losses can no longer move out at a timing that punishes a protoss for taking economic control, providing that protoss is sensible and not a complete moron. this second point is a direct result of the first. Flash's goliaths serve not only as a preventative measure against reaver drops in his own base, but as a way of taking that push-breaking weapon away from an expanding Protoss.
What Flash's build did more than repel reaver drops was allow him to continue using a streamlined and efficient build order that allows him access to many different attack timings. A protoss who reaver drops Flash when he's using this build will find himself at an economic disadvantage rather than on even of superior footing. The reality of reaver drops against other fast expansion builds is that regardless of the specific costs of the reaver drop, a reaver drop will not put you at a disadvantage.
Of course, this only really applies to pros, because Joe Fuckwit with 100 apm at D- does not know how to play out of a reaver drop.
I'm thinking of writing a PvZ version of this article in February. I didn't follow the evolution of PvZ as closely in the early days, but there's been some interesting changes in recent history.
Is there anyone with a good knowledge of old strategical PvZ history that would want to assist me in writing that article?
On January 07 2009 21:40 RaGe wrote: I'm thinking of writing a PvZ version of this article in February. I didn't follow the evolution of PvZ as closely in the early days, but there's been some interesting changes in recent history.
Is there anyone with a good knowledge of old strategical PvZ history that would want to assist me in writing that article?
EPT
V-Gundam for example, executed the same build order almost every game, with such precision, timing and micro, that even when his opponents knew 2 weeks in advance that it was coming, they still could not stop it. Though his trademark 'gundamrush' seemed simple, it's theory was forked to deal with every single possible counter in an appropriate way, an agressive build that was highly adaptable.
IntoTheRain, also had his (less complex) trademark buildorder, starting with an early reaver, and controlling it with pure excellence. It was not a 'smart' build, but he sure knew how to use it, even when they saw it coming.
except take the BeSt link out TLPD messed it up! :p
got some funny ones in there "
TLPD
