EPTINnoVation Fan Club - Page 128
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On June 15 2017 22:02 Charoisaur wrote: GOAT list: 1. INnoVation 2. Life 3. Zest 4. sOs 5. Mvp 6. herO 7. Rain 8. MC 9. TaeJa 10. Polt I think INnoVation is now the GOAT already but another premier win would cement his status so that not even his haters can argue against it. sOs above Mvp and Taeja? | ||
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hfsrj
Germany166 Posts
On June 15 2017 07:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: I figured this would be somewhat relevant in this fan club rather than in the zest one, so i post it here. I hope that's ok I didn't really ignore it per se (i didn't talk about it a lot, that's true). But i don't see how that one tournament can close the gap in results of these two players. Innovation did well in every single team format. I really don't care how great that run was, it's simply impossible for that one tournament to matter that much. Again, Innovation won 2 proleagues, one GSTL, acer teamstory cups and while it is true that you cannot carry a team completely alone in proleague, he still did extremely well in every season he played. Let's just look at the STX season, he finished 43-20 when his next best teammates finished 26-19 (dear) and 19-10 (classic) It is not exactly the same, but that is carrying for sure. Also saying that "his proleague record isn't all that amazing" is weird to say the least. He is one of the absolute top player in sc2 proleague history. If his record isn't amazing, none is. Your ATC argument boils down to: "it doesn't count because Inno was good and Taeja was not" Even saying it is a bad thing when he needed to carry team acer, for Taeja that was a positive. Why i mention the online status, well overall online competition simply doesn't have the same prestige. That's why starleagues count more than IEM qualifiers, even though the lvl of competition might be similar. Also why proleague counts more than ATC or IPLTAC. Though proleague itself is arguably more competitive to begin with. I think many people also forget the teamleagues with Acer (or Axiom/Acer). Yes Taeja had an incredible run in IPLTAC, but Inno had carried teams on his shoulders day after day, from rather small to the prestigious Proleague. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On June 15 2017 16:58 Olli wrote: That's how ridiculous IPLTAC was. He had nearly a 90% winrate against all the best Korean teams fielding the very best players in the world. He all- or multikilled Prime (Marineking was winning MLGs around that time, Maru, Creator were Code S players, Creator won WCS Korea shortly after), Startale (Bomber, Squirtle, Curious, Life), Slayers (Puzzle, Min, CoCa, Genius), and IM 1,5 times (Yonghwa, Yoda, Nestea, Losira, Seed and First, Yonghwa). He had three map losses, two of which came to players who won a GSL around that time (Seed and Sniper). The other to Alicia, a TvP specialist who placed second at two MLGs in 2012. That run is incredible. Nearly all the above players were Code S level, and some of them were flat out the best players in the world. The argument isn't "Taeja was bad, Inno was good", but that a lot of the leagues you argued happened exactly during those times when INnoVation was the best player in the world - not the best team league player, the best player period. Taht has little to do with him being good in teamleagues, or Taeja being bad in them, but their overall skill. So you have to take peak performance of others into account as well to see who really did better when they were in form. And nobody beats Taeja in that department. I don't really care whether INnoVation goes down as the best team league player ever, but I'm not happy if these titles get thrown around easily. Taeja should be up for consideration in my opinion, as should MMA. I'd rather have the discussion than have INnoVation proclaimed as the best team leaguer ever immediately. Perhaps I just value things differently, that wouldn't surprise me. I make very little distinction between on- and offline, I value peak performance against opponents of players' specific eras a lot more than most. Well i think your second paragraph shows the difference between our two arguments (and your last sentence i guess). I don't think that you only have to look at the peak peformance of players, you have to look at the big picture. Innovation did well in every teamleague he participated in. If it was during periods where he was at his peak, well then good for him i guess, that's a lot of peaks then though. Just like in the GOAT discussion we also should look at the whole career and not just who dominated the most during one specific time frame. So sure, Taeja's run at IPLTAC was excellent, but i still don't agree that one tournament run can make up for the difference in overall achievements/results. Imo you cherrypick results here to fit the narrative. But you are right, we should also look at online performance, the thing is that a lot of the time it's not the biggest priority for players at a time, it's less prestigious, etc. I think it is safe to say that proleague was extremely important when it happened. That's not the main argument here though, but i think it is fair to bring it up. I mean it really comes down to IPLTAC being just one run, i doubt anyone can convince you that you overvalue it though. So i guess the discussion has to end here  | ||
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Philozovic
France1677 Posts
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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Frenchy91
France36 Posts
Taeja : 0 Starleague final, 0 WCS America Final, but he was just so fucking good in HomeStoryCup. Ridiculous. So Jo Wilfried Tsonga is just better than Nadal, he wins more of a shitty tournament nobody care about. Legends perform when it matters. Inno is a Legend of Starcraft like MVP, Life. Teaja is a good player, nothing more. | ||
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
Taeja holds the record for most tournament wins (and no, they were not all HomeStory Cups), has a winning head-to-head record against almost all of the best players of all time, including 20-12 over INnoVation by the way, and it's not like he never did anything in Korea. Two GSL semifinals (which he both lost to the then-champion) are conveniently brushed under the rug because they don't fit the narrative of Taeja being terrible in Korea. Besides that, anyone who actually understands StarCraft II and has watched Taeja play knows how absurdly good he was. Including a lot of pro players saying that Taeja was the best they'd ever played against. He's broadly accepted as one of the three best players of all time and your opinion doesn't change that. Now back to INnoVation: had little trouble in his VSL group yesterday. 4-0 over Curious and jjakji. Looking like a favorite to win it, toughest challengers are probably ByuN and soO and maybe Classic if he advances from Group D. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15981 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On June 17 2017 17:36 Olli wrote: If you seriously believe in Liquid bias among writing staff that has nothing to do with the pro team, then your arguments mean absolutely nothing. Not that you actually made any. Taeja holds the record for most tournament wins (and no, they were not all HomeStory Cups), has a winning head-to-head record against almost all of the best players of all time, including 20-12 over INnoVation by the way, and it's not like he never did anything in Korea. Two GSL semifinals (which he both lost to the then-champion) are conveniently brushed under the rug because they don't fit the narrative of Taeja being terrible in Korea. Besides that, anyone who actually understands StarCraft II and has watched Taeja play knows how absurdly good he was. Including a lot of pro players saying that Taeja was the best they'd ever played against. He's broadly accepted as one of the three best players of all time and your opinion doesn't change that. Now back to INnoVation: had little trouble in his VSL group yesterday. 4-0 over Curious and jjakji. Looking like a favorite to win it, toughest challengers are probably ByuN and soO and maybe Classic if he advances from Group D. Well it was easier for a terran than a zerg to have a good record against INno ^^ But tbh I also think that Taeja is an insanely good player, who lacked some preparation skills. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15981 Posts
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On June 17 2017 18:46 Charoisaur wrote: You may have your own opinion but the statement that he's broadly accepted as a top 3 player is just wrong. Almost nobody except you and Stuchiu views him as a top 3 player; in stuchiu's top 15 list TaeJa's placement was heavily criticized and that was at a time where Inno, Zest and sOs had far less achievements than they do now. It's not wrong, and I don't know what else to tell you about it. You obviously don't believe a word I say and I believe that you're extremely biased in your opinion, so let's just leave it at that and move on. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15981 Posts
Strange, I could say the same about you. Okay, leave it at that, this discussion doesn't lead anywhere. | ||
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Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
But, he has no Starleague wins, and to be considered in the top 5 of players you should have at least one, but that's just my arbitrary criteria... Because that shows a lack in his play, which is preparation. So as far as I am concerned, TaeJa doesn't even come close to Mvp. Life, Inno, Zest, MC or Nestea, but due to an insane amout of weekenders he won edges out Maru, sOs and MMA Even though, at his absolute best, is a better player than any one of them | ||
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Frenchy91
France36 Posts
0 WCS Final. Thank you bye. | ||
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On June 18 2017 02:26 Frenchy91 wrote: 0 GSL Final. 0 WCS Final. Thank you bye. sOs must have been a terrible player until late 2016 by your logic. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15981 Posts
On June 18 2017 06:40 Olli wrote: sOs must have been a terrible player until late 2016 by your logic. 2 WCS global final wins though | ||
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
Not Starleague win or WCS league wins (which he meant). Otherwise any WCS circuit tournament counts, including Taeja's IEM Shenzhen, since it gave WCS points. And surely BlizzCon can't count because it's a weekend tournament and Taeja got further in it than INnoVation ever did. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Also only counting wins is not a smart thing to do either. In theory the GOAT could be a player who only gets second every time, but does this so often that it simply doesn't matter. Every result matters to the big picture. Innovation did and does well in every format you throw at him, does well in the arguably most competitive scene (the korean one ) and that alone means a lot imo. So how many weekend tournaments do you need to win to be worth the same as a starleague? That's completely subjective. In the near future i want to create my own personal goat list where i only care abotu results and will use a point based system to make sure it's consistent throughout. I have a feeling innovation will be close to the top in that one. | ||
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