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On June 18 2017 07:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:The truth is that it is really hard to compare players who don't compete in the same tournament circuit for the most part. Especially when both tournament circuits even have different formats (preparation based vs weekend style, etc) Also only counting wins is not a smart thing to do either. In theory the GOAT could be a player who only gets second every time, but does this so often that it simply doesn't matter. Every result matters to the big picture. Innovation did and does well in every format you throw at him, does well in the arguably most competitive scene (the korean one  ) and that alone means a lot imo. So how many weekend tournaments do you need to win to be worth the same as a starleague? That's completely subjective. In the near future i want to create my own personal goat list where i only care abotu results and will use a point based system to make sure it's consistent throughout. I have a feeling innovation will be close to the top in that one.
Well said in all respects.
Though I don't see how anyone could argue that the Korean scene is not the most competitive. Even now. It's madness to even try to argue that during the KeSPA era, which is when TaeJa and Inno both had their peaks.
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Well every time i bring up that the lvl of competition in korea is simply higher than it was for weekend tournaments people argue that there still were top players of korea competing in these (sometimes) and people like taeja had to beat them (sometimes) to win the whole thing. So yeah i guess it is arguable, even though personally i think it seems to be a clear case tbh.
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he hasnt streamed since almost 3 weeks ;(
whats going on? anybody knows when he will stream again?
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
Maybe he is just busy with practice. Practice for the SSL he won and practice with soO for his upcoming GSL.
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On June 21 2017 04:19 ZertoN wrote:
he hasnt streamed since almost 3 weeks ;(
whats going on? anybody knows when he will stream again?
He is almost certainly spending most if not all of his time helping soO practice for the GSL finals. Inno is close friends with soO and he specifically mentioned that soO helped him practice for the SSL finals (which of course he won). Makes sense to return the favor, and even more sense because Inno has the best TvZ around so obviously soO would want to practice with him. Also Inno is one of the few Terrans to successfully mech against Zerg, and Gumiho is another, and soO has historically been weak to mech.
So basically, soO needs a practice partner and Inno is the perfect choice.
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On June 21 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 04:19 ZertoN wrote:
he hasnt streamed since almost 3 weeks ;(
whats going on? anybody knows when he will stream again? He is almost certainly spending most if not all of his time helping soO practice for the GSL finals. Inno is close friends with soO and he specifically mentioned that soO helped him practice for the SSL finals (which of course he won). Makes sense to return the favor, and even more sense because Inno has the best TvZ around so obviously soO would want to practice with him. Also Inno is one of the few Terrans to successfully mech against Zerg, and Gumiho is another, and soO has historically been weak to mech. So basically, soO needs a practice partner and Inno is the perfect choice.
I would think the same. Now that Innovation won SSL, he probably wants soO to win GSL so the trophy will be kept in the family (ex-SKT) :D...
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On June 21 2017 07:14 AshC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:38 pvsnp wrote:On June 21 2017 04:19 ZertoN wrote:
he hasnt streamed since almost 3 weeks ;(
whats going on? anybody knows when he will stream again? He is almost certainly spending most if not all of his time helping soO practice for the GSL finals. Inno is close friends with soO and he specifically mentioned that soO helped him practice for the SSL finals (which of course he won). Makes sense to return the favor, and even more sense because Inno has the best TvZ around so obviously soO would want to practice with him. Also Inno is one of the few Terrans to successfully mech against Zerg, and Gumiho is another, and soO has historically been weak to mech. So basically, soO needs a practice partner and Inno is the perfect choice. I would think the same. Now that Innovation won SSL, he probably wants soO to win GSL so the trophy will be kept in the family (ex-SKT) :D...
Actually, it's kinda funny that you mention it because I remember soO being pissed at Dark when he found out that Dark helped Stats practice for the Season 1 finals. He was like "wtf T1!?"
Also, Stats and TY won the first two big tournaments so it makes sense that ex-SKT needs to catch up to ex-KT.
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On June 15 2017 22:07 Olli wrote:
"His haters" could still argue against it, just as "the haters" do now. I don't hate Innovation, but Mvp, Life and Taeja are still above him for me. Zest could be argued as well. Innovation is in prime position to get there, though.
MVP and Life are argueable but ranking Taeja and Zest above Inno is ridiculous, they won many tournaments, yes, but nowhere near 3 starleagues of Inno, and remember 2013 when Inno is the scariest player in the world, every game he lost was an upset, no one could be as scary as Inno on his peak.
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Austria24420 Posts
On June 21 2017 11:58 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 22:07 Olli wrote:
"His haters" could still argue against it, just as "the haters" do now. I don't hate Innovation, but Mvp, Life and Taeja are still above him for me. Zest could be argued as well. Innovation is in prime position to get there, though. MVP and Life are argueable but ranking Taeja and Zest above Inno is ridiculous, they won many tournaments, yes, but nowhere near 3 starleagues of Inno, and remember 2013 when Inno is the scariest player in the world, every game he lost was an upset, no one could be as scary as Inno on his peak.
Zest is very much arguable. He's got two GSL league trophies, KeSPA Cup and another GSL (World Championship), an IEM WC, a won Proleague as captain of KT, has that fancy all kill of SKT in the season finals, won another GSL tournament when they played the new patch, completely dominated the whole of 2014 and early 2016. As far as HotS goes he was arguably the better player overall, certainly so for longer periods of time. INnoVation's peak came early in HotS when Terran was still insane, then Zest was far better for the whole of 2014. 2015 Zest struggled early on but still won IEM WC, then was the better of the two again for a good amount of time until INnoVation's GSL win.
In LotV Zest was easily the better player in 2016 overall. In 2017 INnoVation has been the better of the two so far. Still, all in all you're looking at more Korean titles for Zest, bigger foreign titles, more semifinals in Korea and a much longer stretch of dominance, as well as the most impressive year (2014) of anyone since Mvp.
Now I can understand why you wouldn't want to put Taeja up there, that depends on your criteria. But Zest has won more in Korea than INnoVation and he dominated for much longer, as well as (and this is unfairly ignored a lot of the time) reshaping the metagame for Protoss multiple times in multiple matchups. Zest absolutely can be argued to be above INnoVation and in my opinion he is.
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Classic also have a lot games vs terrans, so it's high possibility that he practise with Inno.
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On June 21 2017 15:46 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 11:58 ParksonVN wrote:On June 15 2017 22:07 Olli wrote:
"His haters" could still argue against it, just as "the haters" do now. I don't hate Innovation, but Mvp, Life and Taeja are still above him for me. Zest could be argued as well. Innovation is in prime position to get there, though. MVP and Life are argueable but ranking Taeja and Zest above Inno is ridiculous, they won many tournaments, yes, but nowhere near 3 starleagues of Inno, and remember 2013 when Inno is the scariest player in the world, every game he lost was an upset, no one could be as scary as Inno on his peak. Zest is very much arguable. He's got two GSL league trophies, KeSPA Cup and another GSL (World Championship), an IEM WC, a won Proleague as captain of KT, has that fancy all kill of SKT in the season finals, won another GSL tournament when they played the new patch, completely dominated the whole of 2014 and early 2016. As far as HotS goes he was arguably the better player overall, certainly so for longer periods of time. INnoVation's peak came early in HotS when Terran was still insane, then Zest was far better for the whole of 2014. 2015 Zest struggled early on but still won IEM WC, then was the better of the two again for a good amount of time until INnoVation's GSL win. In LotV Zest was easily the better player in 2016 overall. In 2017 INnoVation has been the better of the two so far. Still, all in all you're looking at more Korean titles for Zest, bigger foreign titles, more semifinals in Korea and a much longer stretch of dominance, as well as the most impressive year (2014) of anyone since Mvp. Now I can understand why you wouldn't want to put Taeja up there, that depends on your criteria. But Zest has won more in Korea than INnoVation and he dominated for much longer, as well as (and this is unfairly ignored a lot of the time) reshaping the metagame for Protoss multiple times in multiple matchups. Zest absolutely can be argued to be above INnoVation and in my opinion he is.
I don't see the dominance of Zest as big as you do:
-2013: Inno dominated the game and just killed everyone he played, he won only 1 WCS final but everyone could see Inno in 2013 was the scariest player in the world, he was the ONE. Zest in 2014 was also good but there are at least 3,4 players could compete with him.
-2014 was year of both players, Inno also won GSL that year, Zest just good in the first half.
-2015 Zest was in slump, his IEM win was a surprise indeed. While Inno destroyed GSL and was the huge favor in Blizzcon where he also eliminated Zest 3-0
-2016 first half Zest was the best Protoss but there was also TY, ByuN could compete with him. The end of 2016 Zest was no match for InnoVation when he stomped everyone at IEM.
-2017 Zest is completely trash when Inno just won SSL and being considered at one of the best the whole year.
So I would say each of these player has their own peak, but Inno's prime has been much more consistent than Zest's one.
I think you should check http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/INnoVation Inno clearly won more than Zest, 3 Korean leagues and 3 Global events (2 for Zest). Moreover Taeja is not worth considering with 0 starleague title.
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Zest didn't win more in korea. Inno won 2 GSL, 1 SSL and IEM Gyeonggi.
Zest won 2 GSL, a Kespa Cup and GSL global tournament.
So it's 4 titles vs 4 but Inno has one more Starleague so his korean results are better than Zest's.
For foreign events it's IEM gamescom + WCS season finals vs IEM Katowice. I'd say this is in Inno's favor as well so there is no way you can rank Zest over Inno regardless of your criteria.
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Austria24420 Posts
2013 earned INnoVation one championship. Yes, he was easily the best player in the world then, but that boils down to four months of dominance between April and July. That's where all his results came - which were impressive, sure, but nowhere, NOWHERE near Zest's entire 2014.
Zest got to at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he played in 2014 up to BlizzCon, where he lost to the eventual champion. He won a GSL, GSL Global Tournament, KeSPA Cup, Proleague that year, made the GSL semifinals again, got to IEM Toronto finals. INnoVation's hot streak in 2014 earned him one championship. I don't care what you say, Zest was the far more consistent player and posted far better results. 2014 was NOT an equal year for them, Zest outperformed him by miles. INnoVation won a GSL towards the end, sure, but he did nothing else of note. Nothing at all. He made only one other semifinal and that was at DH Bucharest after beating Welmu and LiquidBunny. After his GSL he made the Ro8 of BlizzCon and Hot6Cup. Meanwhile Zest won KeSPA Cup, made the semifinals where he barely lost to soO (who was an absolute god outside finals) and would easily have beaten INnoVation in the finals, got to Ro8 of IEM Shenzhen, 2nd at IEM Toronto, semifinals at Hot6Cup, but lost to Life in the first round of BlizzCon. All in all, Zest had far better results overall and was the much better player if you watched their games. INnoVation's 2014 GSL in fact is largely due to soO barely beating Zest in the semifinals, otherwise that GSL too wouldn't have been INnoVation's.
So come on, you can't seriously be so biased as to say that they were anywhere near equal in 2014, or that INnoVation's second half of 2014 was better than Zest's.
Since you bring it up, during Zest's slump in early 2015 he was still better than INnoVation, beat him to win IEM as well. He also made to Ro8 of SSL, whereas all INnoVation did was a Ro8 at Shenzhen and in GSL. That's it. So Zest comes out ahead there as well.
In 2016, there were three players who stood out above everyone else - Zest, Dark and TY. Zest beat TY and Dark got knocked out in GSL. ByuN was absolutely nowhere until GSL S2. Meanwhile INnoVation did absolutely nothing in 2016, until the very very end when he won Gyeonggi. So again, you cannot seriously be so biased to argue that INnoVation was better than Zest at any point in 2016, except perhaps for that one weekend in December when IEM happened.
And yes, Zest has been bad in 2017, while INnoVation has been good. Still INnoVation only has one more championship this year than Zest. INnoVation hasn't been a standout player this year by any means, others have been much better - including Stats, TY and soO.
So come on, Zest has consistently been the better player with better results from 2014 to the end of 2016. He's won more than INnoVation in Korea, he's been FAAAAAR more consistent even despite his slumps and he's dominated harder for longer. If you don't believe me, compare these links below and especially see just how insane Zest was in 2014, and how much of absolutely nothing INnoVation did in 2014 (other than the one GSL), and especially 2016.
People always talk about Zest being inconsistent and falling off, but INnoVation has repeatedly done so throughout his career and it's gone completely unnoticed. He's disappeared for a whole year and nobody said a word. So some of you people should probably wake up before proclaiming him the greatest of all time, or anywhere close to it. There's a few people that still rank above him, and Zest is one of them.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/INnoVation/Results
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zest/Results
On June 21 2017 17:47 Charoisaur wrote:
Zest didn't win more in korea. Inno won 2 GSL, 1 SSL and IEM Gyeonggi.
Zest won 2 GSL, a Kespa Cup and GSL global tournament.
So it's 4 titles vs 4 but Inno has one more Starleague so his korean results are better than Zest's.
For foreign events it's IEM gamescom + WCS season finals vs IEM Katowice. I'd say this is in Inno's favor as well so there is no way you can rank Zest over Inno regardless of your criteria.
Fair enough, let's count Gyeonggi. You're not counting the GSL Cataclysm Tournament though, so 4-5. And if you think that this latest Starleague outdoes Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tournament, it doesn't, not even one of them. Especially not with the format it was held in. INnoVation played one knockout match all season. I'm sorry but that isn't a Starleague.
And you should probably also take into account how many more Korean semifinals Zest reached. His overall performance in Korea is quite a bit above INnoVation's, and his IEM WC is bigger than any foreign trophy INnoVation won as well.
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On June 21 2017 17:27 ParksonVN wrote:
-2014 was year of both players, Inno also won GSL that year, Zest just good in the first half.
Zest's 2014 was infinitely better than Inno's. You can't even argue Inno's year was anywhere close to as good, and that Zest was 'just good in the first half' is blatantly wrong. Unless the first half of a year ends in December.
On June 21 2017 17:58 Olli wrote:
INnoVation's 2014 GSL in fact is largely due to soO barely beating Zest in the semifinals, otherwise that GSL too wouldn't have been INnoVation's.
Come on, that's a stretch if I've ever seen one. This is one giant 'What-if?' scenario you can't prove. Zest wasn't the best PvT player and the meta was shifting towards being Terran favored. You can't possibly say with any degree of accuracy whether or not Zest would have won that.
On June 21 2017 17:58 Olli wrote:
INnoVation played one knockout match all season. I'm sorry but that isn't a Starleague.
He still played 28 games across the whole season, meaning the effort put in is comparable to GSL.
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I think we had this discussion already but I absolutely don't see why SSL should count less than a GSL.
Inno playing only 1 knockout-game was due to the fact that he was so dominant in the tournament that he was directly seeded to the finals. Do you really want to discredit him for that?
You think his win would be worth more had he barely got to the playoffs and then won 2 bo5s before winning the finals?
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Austria24420 Posts
On June 21 2017 18:11 Charoisaur wrote:
I think we had this discussion already but I absolutely don't see why SSL should count less than a GSL.
Inno playing only 1 knockout-game was due to the fact that he was so dominant in the tournament that he was directly seeded to the finals. Do you really want to discredit him for that?
You think his win would be worth more had he barely got to the playoffs and then won 2 bo5s before winning the finals?
Yes. That's exactly what people value in GSL - you have to prepare for every single group or match or you're out. SSL put no immediate pressure on anyone. I don't discredit him for being excellent all tournament long - he was, and deservedly won the tournament - but I don't value the tournament anywhere near as highly as even a knockout weekender in Korea. Gyeonggi was more impressive to me.
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You just can't valuate Zest 2015 above Inno 2015, come on, he won GSL, it was a GSL. IEM final was good also, but it's ridiculous to be compared with the GSL title, let alone Inno also won a IEM that yeat  . Inno's tournament result is better than Zest for sure, i can't believe anyone could argue about this.
Korean valuate Blizzcon ~ GSL (debatable but GSL is definitely the most competitive one) > SSL > the rest. In this case Inno won 2 GSL , 1 SSL, 1 GSL runner up while Zest 2 GSL, that's it. And also I don't think Zest IEM final is bigger than Inno's WCS final.
Furthermore, Inno has been always a textbook for Terran since 2013. I don't think Zest is that kind of play creator for Protoss.
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Austria24420 Posts
You're all over the place. I didn't say Zest was better than INnoVation in 2015, just that he was better early in the year. I never compared Zest's IEM Final (Toronto, I assume?) to INnoVation's GSL.
INnoVation's tournament results overall are not better than Zest's. They were in the second half of 2015, if you're trying to argue that, which I never disputed in the first place.
Koreans don't value GSL higher than BlizzCon, I don't know where you got that idea but it's wrong. And you conveniently ignoring all the other Korean championships Zest won (KeSPA Cup, GSL Global Championship, GSL Cataclysm) says it all, really. You're grasping at straws.
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On June 21 2017 18:58 Olli wrote:
You're all over the place. I didn't say Zest was better than INnoVation in 2015, just that he was better early in the year. I never compared Zest's IEM Final (Toronto, I assume?) to INnoVation's GSL.
INnoVation's tournament results overall are not better than Zest's. They were in the second half of 2015, if you're trying to argue that, which I never disputed in the first place.
Koreans don't value GSL higher than BlizzCon, I don't know where you got that idea but it's wrong. And you conveniently ignoring all the other Korean championships Zest won (KeSPA Cup, GSL Global Championship, GSL Cataclysm) says it all, really. You're grasping at straws.
Zest was better than Inno in the first half of 2015 but Inno was also better in second half, look at the whole year Inno was better since GSL > IEM, do I need to emphasize that ?
All i'm saying is that in terms of tournament results in the whole career, Inno is better than Zest:
Tournament ranked by prestige
2 GSL vs 2 GSL : draw
1 SSL vs 0 : Inno wins
WCS final vs IEM final : draw
IEM Gyeonggi = Kespa cup: draw
IEM gamescom = GSL Global Championship : Zest wins
And no matter Blizzcon is bigger than GSL or not, neither of them has ever won it, however: both of them qualified for 3 times and Inno made it to quarter final 2 times while Zest got knocked out all the times (one of them was being 0-3d by Inno) and moreover Inno will be most likely make it to Blizzcon 2017 while Zest ... not so much chance considered his current form. . Overall Inno's performance in Blizzcon is better.
On other hand, you can underestimate Inno's SSL (indeed it was less competitive than the previous ones) but it's still a Starleague, and none of Zest's non-GSL titles is able to compare with it.
btw Cataclysm is not even a premier tournament (Zest only won $2k5 then)
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^Inno also got to an additional GSL final (which he lost to Soulkey) That should count for something.
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EPT
