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On June 13 2017 16:33 `dunedain wrote:
Lol no way is life higher ranked than Mvp, you must be losing your mind to consider him GOAT.
Inno on the other hand is steadily making his way up the charts. Yes, he may be #3, just under Life and Mvp.
But that's the GOAT list right now.
GOAT:
1. Mvp (Bonjwa)
2. Life (Forever behind Mvp. Not to mention the tarnished legacy he left behind.)
3. Innovation (Still currently playing and wrecking fools. One day could be the greatest.)
MVP is so overrated, let me remind you that MVP played when majority of Kespa playlers (the high skilled ones) hadn't switched to SC2 yet, and the were so many more GSLs each year than today. I would say all the opponents MVP faced are nowhere near the level of the ones Inno has been playing like Life, Zest, SOS, Soo, Dark, ByuL... These guys are the highest skilled of all time, period ! Old guys like MMA, Bomber, Fruitdealer, MKP can't even compete even in their peak form. Moreover, Inno has been always at top 5 players in the world since 2013 (in fact he dominated most of the time) except 2016 (he still managed to win IEM), how about MVP ? He dominated 2 a very short time at the beginning when most of good players weren't playing SC2.
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In terms of tournament wins considering qualities of players, I would rank Life at #1 and Inno at #2. Obviously Life would be GOAT if he didn't match-fix which is the worst thing you can do as a progamer. But sadly he did, so Innovation is already GOAT consider his dominance, achievements and ethic. Moreover his contribution to the SC2 scene is clearly the best out of all, the only Terran could compete the greatest of Protoss and Zerg in HOTS era.
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Pre-kespa players are so overrated
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Life is GOAT atm but if INno wins another premier + blizzcon it will be tight
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All he as to do is fucking level up his TvT
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does anybody (perhaps a korean speaker) know when inno will stream again? i miss his stream, thought he'd start again after he won SSL
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I figured this would be somewhat relevant in this fan club rather than in the zest one, so i post it here. I hope that's ok
On June 14 2017 17:12 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 10:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On June 14 2017 09:08 Olli wrote:On June 14 2017 06:57 pvsnp wrote:On June 14 2017 04:57 Charoisaur wrote:On June 13 2017 06:25 pvsnp wrote:On June 13 2017 06:04 Olli wrote:
Innovation is more than a BlizzCon title away from being 'the best ever'. Mvp and Life outdo him by large amounts. Not really the place for such a discussion. But going by Starleague titles INnoVation is tied for first with Mvp at 3, one more than Life's 2. Obviously Mvp and Life have more weekend tournament titles (Inno has 3, Mvp 6 and Life 8) but I think most everyone agrees that Starleagues are worth more. Inno is definitely in the running for GOAT. Inno's teamleague achievements more than make up for his (relative) lack of teamleague titles. On June 13 2017 15:47 Olli wrote:
Mvp has 4, Life has 3. That's the common way of counting, Zest also has 3 by that account. Zest also has a Kespa Cup, IEM WC, and you know, total dominance of 2014 which definitely matters. If anything Zest is ahead of Innovation as well.
Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. That's not a Starleague to me, there's never immediate pressure of a KO stage or a group where you show up prepared or you're out. That and Innovation actually has a tendency of disappearing for large stretches of time - he was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. He was really subpar for most of 2015 until he won a GSL when Terran mech was on a high. He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again.
Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) or in his by far weakest matchup during a time when that opposing race was doing great (his 2012 GSL), or even during times when all other Terrans did great and he was by far the best among them, is silly to me. He was in 6 GSL finals and was only beaten by Life and MMA, two others who rank highly on the all time best list. BlizzCon, WCS, WCG (that's a big one, the KR qualifiers especially were incredibly stacked), MLG. Dominated 2011 harder than any other player dominated anything. All the while playing with essentially broken wrists, something that should be taken into account imo - because it makes all these achievements far more impressive.
Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change.
As far as rivalries go, there really aren't any in Korea since nobody ever has a hostile attitude towards someone else and also has that translated into series. Zest vs Maru for example has the history, but they don't seem to dislike each other. this comment is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. It's funny how much people have to make up to defend the narrative that Mvp is the best of all time. Mvp has 4, Life has 3. That's the common way of counting, Zest also has 3 by that account. Zest also has a Kespa Cup In which universe is this the common way of counting and why should Zest's Kespa Cup count but Inno's IEM Gyeonggi not? Part of this is that this Starleague win just doesn't count anywhere as highly to me. He's had to play precisely one elimination match, against largely weak opposition. If that was weak opposition then what is this? wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_August/Code_She was awful in 2014 until he won a weak GSL when Terran was on a high. a weak GSL??? He was almost nonexistent in 2016, and now he won an imo weak tournament without KO stages when Terran's on a high again. Terran is on a high? PvZ GSL finals and Inno was the only one in the SSL playoffs. Comparing that to Mvp who never fell off during his time http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/5really never fell off. and won against huge imbalances (BL/infestor) wait... he won? If I remember right he lost in the finals vs Life. Or do you mean that IEM where he defeated foreigners? Mvp is the greatest player to ever touch SC2 and that probably won't ever change.
repeating that over and over doesn't make it true. Teamleague? I was talking about weekend tournaments like IEMs, Dreamhacks, that sort of thing. Not Proleague or GSTL. As far as teamleagues go, INnoVation is far and away the single greatest player, full stop. He carried STX on his back to the title, won the GSTL Super Ace match, and has 12 all-kills. 12. Taeja disagrees, and he disagrees heavily. At least for consideration. MMA was also a great teamleague player for many years. Ok i have to bite this time. Olli pls, Taeja's teamleague career isn't even close. Comparing Innovation's teamleague success to Taeja's is simply laughable. Yes we all know the story of IPL TAC where Taeja carried hard, but most of it was online and there really is more to a career than one tournament. Innovation has a record of 75-41 in proleague and a record of 12-2 in GSTL. Winning 2 proleague titles, one GSTL. Taeja has a record of 9-10 in proleague and 10-4 in gstl, winning no proleague title and one GSTL. Also if we wanna include online stuff, then let's go with something both played in: In acer teamstory cups Inno did also better than taeja (winning two titles) acer teamstory cup taeja: 55–33 (vs koreans: 29–24 (54.72%)) inno: 58–15 (vs koreans: 30–7 (81.08%)) It is quite a stretch to say that "Taeja disagrees", it's really not even close. Unless i am missing something here, then feel free to elaborate. (though one could argue the Zest fanclub really isn't the right place for this :/) It seems you're completely ignoring that Taeja's IPLTAC was by far the most ridiculous team league performance of anyone ever. INnoVation's Proleague record really isn't all that amazing, and to say he carried STX to the title is pretty silly considering the format. They all contributed, Classic and Dear most notably. His Proleague titles can't be considered his achievement alone or even close, considering he was on absurdly strong teams for both of them and the very format of Proleague doesn't allow for carrying. IPLTAC however was Taeja and Taeja only. He didn't just all kill teams, he (reverse) all killed and multi killed every one of the best teams in the world at the time. He ran through IM 1,5 times in the grand finals. ATC is also a bit of a shaky argument to make considering the time it was played. Innovation came off an incredible dominant period in 2013 and joined Acer where he was the absolute star man and had to carry the team. Taeja meanwhile was only getting back into shape toward the end of the year, and barely played SC2 in early 2014. That's when ATC happened. So really that single IPLTAC is a huge factor you've completely ignored because it was online. Which is silly because players don't get worse online, they get better in their comfort zone. And the Korean teams did take it very seriously. But anyway, Zest fanclub. Zest > Innovation, so there.
I didn't really ignore it per se (i didn't talk about it a lot, that's true). But i don't see how that one tournament can close the gap in results of these two players. Innovation did well in every single team format. I really don't care how great that run was, it's simply impossible for that one tournament to matter that much. Again, Innovation won 2 proleagues, one GSTL, acer teamstory cups and while it is true that you cannot carry a team completely alone in proleague, he still did extremely well in every season he played.
Let's just look at the STX season, he finished 43-20 when his next best teammates finished 26-19 (dear) and 19-10
(classic)
It is not exactly the same, but that is carrying for sure. Also saying that "his proleague record isn't all that amazing" is weird to say the least. He is one of the absolute top player in sc2 proleague history. If his record isn't amazing, none is.
Your ATC argument boils down to: "it doesn't count because Inno was good and Taeja was not" Even saying it is a bad thing when he needed to carry team acer, for Taeja that was a positive.
Why i mention the online status, well overall online competition simply doesn't have the same prestige. That's why starleagues count more than IEM qualifiers, even though the lvl of competition might be similar. Also why proleague counts more than ATC or IPLTAC. Though proleague itself is arguably more competitive to begin with.
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INnoVation's Proleague record really isn't all that amazing, and to say he carried STX to the title is pretty silly considering the format.
INnoVation has the second-highest winrate in Proleague at 65% (#1 is sOs, who is 1% higher). That's total career winrate, across the 4 years of its existence. If that isn't amazing, nothing is.
And as far as carrying goes, I need to go back and dig around some but I believe it was the STX-Woongjin Finals preview that said that in all but one round, the team won when Inno won and lost when he lost. That season, he placed second in total wins (43 to Flash's 44), had the highest winrate (edging Flash by fractions of a percent), and went 6-1 in the playoffs which includes winning both ace matches against SKT (also note that the max number of times anyone could play was 7 and INnoVation was the only player whom the coaches thought they needed every single time). Nobody else in STX Soul even made the top 10 that season. INnoVation put the team on his back and hauled them across the finish line.
EDIT: Found it. "As an aside, take special note of the fact that in five of the six matches, STX won or lost with Innovation. Except for Round 4, when Innovation won, STX won. When he fell, his team fell with him. "
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/423425-spl-proleague-12-13-grand-finals
Throwing out literally years of superb results in favor of literally a single tournament (as impressive as it was) is ridiculous.
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Austria24420 Posts
That's how ridiculous IPLTAC was. He had nearly a 90% winrate against all the best Korean teams fielding the very best players in the world. He all- or multikilled Prime (Marineking was winning MLGs around that time, Maru, Creator were Code S players, Creator won WCS Korea shortly after), Startale (Bomber, Squirtle, Curious, Life), Slayers (Puzzle, Min, CoCa, Genius), and IM 1,5 times (Yonghwa, Yoda, Nestea, Losira, Seed and First, Yonghwa). He had three map losses, two of which came to players who won a GSL around that time (Seed and Sniper). The other to Alicia, a TvP specialist who placed second at two MLGs in 2012. That run is incredible. Nearly all the above players were Code S level, and some of them were flat out the best players in the world.
The argument isn't "Taeja was bad, Inno was good", but that a lot of the leagues you argued happened exactly during those times when INnoVation was the best player in the world - not the best team league player, the best player period. Taht has little to do with him being good in teamleagues, or Taeja being bad in them, but their overall skill. So you have to take peak performance of others into account as well to see who really did better when they were in form. And nobody beats Taeja in that department.
I don't really care whether INnoVation goes down as the best team league player ever, but I'm not happy if these titles get thrown around easily. Taeja should be up for consideration in my opinion, as should MMA. I'd rather have the discussion than have INnoVation proclaimed as the best team leaguer ever immediately. Perhaps I just value things differently, that wouldn't surprise me. I make very little distinction between on- and offline, I value peak performance against opponents of players' specific eras a lot more than most.
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TaeJa isn't up for consideration. 1 good run isn't anywhere close to consistent top performances across multiple leagues. It doesn't even compare.
Maybe Inno isn't the unquestionable #1 teamleague player as Maru/sOs/herO also have incredible Proleague records but comparing TaeJa to one of these is laughable.
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Austria24420 Posts
On June 15 2017 19:04 Charoisaur wrote:
TaeJa isn't up for consideration. 1 good run isn't anywhere close to consistent top performances across multiple leagues. It doesn't even compare.
Maybe Inno isn't the unquestionable #1 teamleague player as Maru/sOs/herO also have incredible Proleague records but comparing TaeJa to one of these is laughable.
It's not, considering Taeja also did well in ATC when he was in much worse form than Innovation, and had a 10-4 record for Slayers in GSTL when he was just getting started. He had a meh record in Proleague, but the losses came at a time when he was barely playing in general - so again, it's not a team league specific issue. And that's all the teamleagues Taeja played in.
What I find laughable is the way you dismiss arguments because you don't agree with them, on the basis of no visible criteria other than Proleague records, which, well, is a really stupid argument here because Taeja mostly didn't play in Proleague.
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Well, Proleague was by far the most competitive teamleague so of course I value that the highest.
I don't think a player who barely played in Proleague can be in consideration for best teamleague player.
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Rofl Taeja is a sc2 genious but you cant put him GOAT, it's between players like sOs, Life, Cure, INnovation
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I mean this is literally just a case of quantity. You're arguing for TaeJa on the back of 1 run - albeit a very spectacular one. Against a player who played in like 10 high level team leagues, and while he didn't have 1 particular special run like TaeJa, the sheer number of good performances (and lack of bad performances even when, by his own admission, he was playing more LoL than SC2) more than makes up for it. In a similar manner that TaeJa has made up for never winning GSL by winning a silly amount of weekend tournaments instead.
Maybe (big maybe) peak TaeJa was scarier, but it doesn't get more reliable than INnoVation.
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When talking about spectacular runs sOs' 2015 post-season playoff run is also very relevant.
Might be on the same level as TaeJa's.
Maru's 16-2 record in last season's regular season is certainly more impressive than TaeJa's run.
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just ignore the trolls, guys.
if somebody comes in a fanclub and starts trash talking the player that fanclub is about while praising a different (and not even relevant at this point) player to no end, you shouldn't take him serious.
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Austria24420 Posts
Uh, this discussion was moved here because it was about whether INnoVation was the best team league player ever. I disagree with that, and that's not "trash talking" him and doesn't make me a troll, jesus. You're being a bit silly.
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You guys should maybe just post a blog or something for this discussion, instead of having it in multiple fan club threads :p
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GOAT list:
1. INnoVation
2. Life
3. Zest
4. sOs
5. Mvp
6. herO
7. Rain
8. MC
9. TaeJa
10. Polt
I think INnoVation is now the GOAT already but another premier win would cement his status so that not even his haters can argue against it.
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EPT
