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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On June 16 2011 19:32 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 18:51 starcraft2rush wrote:On June 16 2011 13:00 SleepTech wrote:On June 16 2011 12:22 Xiaon wrote:
still the best zerg
takes less risks then zenio No, he is not the best zerg. Maybe best Zerg in NA perhaps. But definitely not 'the best'. I think Zenio is higher then Idra. When was the last time Idra beat Zenio? It's hard to see Idra lose out but I don't really think he cares as much as he needs too. Hopefully soon, he'll start caring. I think you'll see him be unstoppable once that happens. But right now, top zerg in NA most likely. Don't you mean best foreigner zerg? Who is better than IdrA from EU w/ zerg. Sen is the only other contender for this title. Many, Dimaga, Nerchio, Stephano all miles ahead of Idra atm. Idra needs to realise it has gone downhill for many months and that he coulnt qualify for the NASL finals just shows it. He needs to get back with alot of practise.
Sadly, they have not proven they are better than him. (through results) That argument is invalid.
On June 17 2011 00:12 DharmaTurtle wrote:A good analysis of Idra's play vs. Zenio from the NASL thread, credit to Azarkon: + Show Spoiler +Zenio coin-flipped, but he coin-flipped with a biased coin - he won the mind games - he predicted what Idra would do, and Idra fell into these predictions.
Against anyone else, the specific coin-flips Zenio did may not have paid off, but against Idra, who Zenio has played and studied, it did.
First game, he 10 pooled on a macro map, knowing that Idra would not be able to resist 15 hatching to maximize his economy (because if there's one thing Idra fears, it's being behind on economy). Yet, even with this prediction, it was a coin-flip because Zenio had to count on scouting Idra in a timely manner. He did, and Idra lost.
Second game, they both opened "safe," and then transitioned into their techs of choice. Zenio went for ling baneling aggression, but could not do damage because Idra went the defensive counter - roaches. Idra then attacked Zenio's natural with a roach-ling timing but failed to break him because Zenio had good simcity with his spines. At this point, they were fairly even. Then Zenio coin-flipped mutas. Had Idra put down a hydra den and made a few hydras, or scouted with a speed overlord or overseer and put down some spores, Zenio would've been dead. But Zenio predicted that Idra was afraid of falling behind on roach numbers after losing a bunch during the "all-in" attack, predicted that Idra had a habit of not scouting in ZvZ and relying on standard play, and so his muta switch paid off. Idra lost.
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these games, and it's not about ZvZ. It's about Idra's play style.
It is very easy to mind game Idra because he is predictable, and he is predictable in a very specific way - he is generally not willing to coin-flip. Except for the one game against Sen, where Idra played out of his style and took Sen completely by surprise with a ling spine-crawler cheese, Idra has just about always opened defensive, "safe" builds.
Idra doesn't like to take chances, and because he doesn't like to take chances, he is often vulnerable to builds that DO take chances. What Idra does not seem to understand, or understands but refuses to change his play-style accordingly, is that while you can't win consistently with a coin-flip build against random opponents, you CAN win consistently with a coin-flip build against specific opponents (ie Idra), because no one really plays "randomly."
Consider the first game. If Idra opened 14 pool, he would've been at an advantage. But does anyone really think that Idra is going to open 14 pool 50% of the times on Terminus, and 15 hatch the other 50% of the times? Or how about the second game - was Idra going to hydra switch 50% of the times, and build drones and roaches the other 50% of the times? No, because Idra, especially, does not like coin-flipping. He has a set of responses that he considers the "best" responses to each situation and uses them. These responses, when known by the opponent, or even when not known by the opponent, can easily be used to meta-game Idra into a loss.
Mind games are a part of SC 2, and in the hands of successful players, they make "coin flips" into "calculated risks" that result, more often than not, in wins. Unfortunately, Idra has always been weak at them. That's partly why he loses more than he should and to players with worse mechanics - because they out-mind game him. Idra does not really understand, I feel, how to mind game, or perhaps it is more insightful to say that Idra's mentality towards the game does not allow him to mind game effectively.
That Idra hates playing from a position of disadvantage makes it hard for him to pull off any successful coin-flips, because whereas a player like Zenio is fine with failing a 10 pool and then playing to get back in the game (a process that usually involves doing more coin-flips), Idra is not. This is what separates Idra from many other players - the fact that he is unwilling to coin flip because he does not or cannot play from a position of disadvantage. This is, in fact, a weakness in his game no matter what Idra tries to excuse it as, because it limits his versatility as a player, and makes him predictable.
I don't know if Idra will ever get over this limitation as a player, but until he does, he's probably going to keep losing in this fashion. tl;dr Idra is predictable, therefore he loses. Zenio was ahead in the mindgames. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9785065
Well, while it sometimes makes IdrA lose, I think his aspect of not taking coin flips actually helps him more. People don't give IdrA credit for his consistency. Because he doesn't take risks, he managed to qualify for every single GSL Open (when was considered very rigorous qualifiers), got out of his Code S groups when he was in Code S, managed to place in every single MLG, and does very well in DH and other tournaments. Very few players can stay that consistent. Actually I really cannot name one.
I really hope IdrA will keep playing his same standard style, but refines his timings to be able to scout the coin flips and stuff effectively, which will simply take time. Since IdrA's style heavily benefits from practice, it will take a lot of time for him to become an undisputed beast. And unfortunately, IdrA has been in a less than optimal practice situation since SC2 release. Korean ladder could only get him so far...and NA Ladder...lol. I hope they will be "bootcamping" it in the new EG house because that is what IdrA's style benefits most from. I'd really hope the rest of EG could start showing results too.
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idra's justin tv page (idrajit.tv) changed name from eg_idra into "HERP DERP SHERP" and sth is wrong with video archive. Hacked?
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On June 17 2011 05:05 Whole wrote:
Well, while it sometimes makes IdrA lose, I think his aspect of not taking coin flips actually helps him more. People don't give IdrA credit for his consistency. Because he doesn't take risks, he managed to qualify for every single GSL Open (when was considered very rigorous qualifiers), got out of his Code S groups when he was in Code S, managed to place in every single MLG, and does very well in DH and other tournaments. Very few players can stay that consistent.
I really hope IdrA will keep playing his same standard style, but refines his timings to be able to scout the coin flips and stuff effectively, which will simply take time. Since IdrA's style heavily benefits from practice, it will take a lot of time for him to become an undisputed beast. And unfortunately, IdrA has been in a less than optimal practice situation since SC2 release. Korean ladder could only get him so far...and NA Ladder...lol. I hope they will be "bootcamping" it in the new EG house because that is what IdrA's style benefits most from. I'd really hope the rest of EG could start showing results too.
This man speaks wisely. Idra's style pretty much requires perfect condition and very deep research into game situations that can only be acquired through mass practice against THE top notch opponents.
It'll be a long time until SC2 is figured enough for someone with Idra's style to become flexible(read: Flash).
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On June 17 2011 05:06 SENKi wrote:
idra's justin tv page (idrajit.tv) changed name from eg_idra into "HERP DERP SHERP" and sth is wrong with video archive. Hacked?
yes it was hacked.
On June 17 2011 05:02 mikyaJ wrote:
Now if you're opponent is going for any of those, what should you make? Infestors or Hydras, meaning you get your own lair: simple. This means that Zenio can't just assume, well I hope he's not getting Hydras or Infestors now... that should be assumed, unless the person failed and can't scout your lair.
What this ALL means is that, the damage that the Muta Switch does is directly coorrelated to how much your opponent messes up. If they mess up a lot, you win. If they mess up a little you may do a lot of damage, but not win outright. If they handle it cleanly, then they do barely any damage. Especially when you miss a fungle, you're messing up.
It already killed a shit load of drones before the infestor was out.
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On June 17 2011 05:05 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 19:32 Nerdslayer wrote:On June 16 2011 18:51 starcraft2rush wrote:On June 16 2011 13:00 SleepTech wrote:On June 16 2011 12:22 Xiaon wrote:
still the best zerg
takes less risks then zenio No, he is not the best zerg. Maybe best Zerg in NA perhaps. But definitely not 'the best'. I think Zenio is higher then Idra. When was the last time Idra beat Zenio? It's hard to see Idra lose out but I don't really think he cares as much as he needs too. Hopefully soon, he'll start caring. I think you'll see him be unstoppable once that happens. But right now, top zerg in NA most likely. Don't you mean best foreigner zerg? Who is better than IdrA from EU w/ zerg. Sen is the only other contender for this title. Many, Dimaga, Nerchio, Stephano all miles ahead of Idra atm. Idra needs to realise it has gone downhill for many months and that he coulnt qualify for the NASL finals just shows it. He needs to get back with alot of practise. Sadly, they have not proven they are better than him. (through results) That argument is invalid. Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 00:12 DharmaTurtle wrote:A good analysis of Idra's play vs. Zenio from the NASL thread, credit to Azarkon: + Show Spoiler +Zenio coin-flipped, but he coin-flipped with a biased coin - he won the mind games - he predicted what Idra would do, and Idra fell into these predictions.
Against anyone else, the specific coin-flips Zenio did may not have paid off, but against Idra, who Zenio has played and studied, it did.
First game, he 10 pooled on a macro map, knowing that Idra would not be able to resist 15 hatching to maximize his economy (because if there's one thing Idra fears, it's being behind on economy). Yet, even with this prediction, it was a coin-flip because Zenio had to count on scouting Idra in a timely manner. He did, and Idra lost.
Second game, they both opened "safe," and then transitioned into their techs of choice. Zenio went for ling baneling aggression, but could not do damage because Idra went the defensive counter - roaches. Idra then attacked Zenio's natural with a roach-ling timing but failed to break him because Zenio had good simcity with his spines. At this point, they were fairly even. Then Zenio coin-flipped mutas. Had Idra put down a hydra den and made a few hydras, or scouted with a speed overlord or overseer and put down some spores, Zenio would've been dead. But Zenio predicted that Idra was afraid of falling behind on roach numbers after losing a bunch during the "all-in" attack, predicted that Idra had a habit of not scouting in ZvZ and relying on standard play, and so his muta switch paid off. Idra lost.
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these games, and it's not about ZvZ. It's about Idra's play style.
It is very easy to mind game Idra because he is predictable, and he is predictable in a very specific way - he is generally not willing to coin-flip. Except for the one game against Sen, where Idra played out of his style and took Sen completely by surprise with a ling spine-crawler cheese, Idra has just about always opened defensive, "safe" builds.
Idra doesn't like to take chances, and because he doesn't like to take chances, he is often vulnerable to builds that DO take chances. What Idra does not seem to understand, or understands but refuses to change his play-style accordingly, is that while you can't win consistently with a coin-flip build against random opponents, you CAN win consistently with a coin-flip build against specific opponents (ie Idra), because no one really plays "randomly."
Consider the first game. If Idra opened 14 pool, he would've been at an advantage. But does anyone really think that Idra is going to open 14 pool 50% of the times on Terminus, and 15 hatch the other 50% of the times? Or how about the second game - was Idra going to hydra switch 50% of the times, and build drones and roaches the other 50% of the times? No, because Idra, especially, does not like coin-flipping. He has a set of responses that he considers the "best" responses to each situation and uses them. These responses, when known by the opponent, or even when not known by the opponent, can easily be used to meta-game Idra into a loss.
Mind games are a part of SC 2, and in the hands of successful players, they make "coin flips" into "calculated risks" that result, more often than not, in wins. Unfortunately, Idra has always been weak at them. That's partly why he loses more than he should and to players with worse mechanics - because they out-mind game him. Idra does not really understand, I feel, how to mind game, or perhaps it is more insightful to say that Idra's mentality towards the game does not allow him to mind game effectively.
That Idra hates playing from a position of disadvantage makes it hard for him to pull off any successful coin-flips, because whereas a player like Zenio is fine with failing a 10 pool and then playing to get back in the game (a process that usually involves doing more coin-flips), Idra is not. This is what separates Idra from many other players - the fact that he is unwilling to coin flip because he does not or cannot play from a position of disadvantage. This is, in fact, a weakness in his game no matter what Idra tries to excuse it as, because it limits his versatility as a player, and makes him predictable.
I don't know if Idra will ever get over this limitation as a player, but until he does, he's probably going to keep losing in this fashion. tl;dr Idra is predictable, therefore he loses. Zenio was ahead in the mindgames. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9785065 Well, while it sometimes makes IdrA lose, I think his aspect of not taking coin flips actually helps him more. People don't give IdrA credit for his consistency. Because he doesn't take risks, he managed to qualify for every single GSL Open (when was considered very rigorous qualifiers), got out of his Code S groups when he was in Code S, managed to place in every single MLG, and does very well in DH and other tournaments. Very few players can stay that consistent. I really hope IdrA will keep playing his same standard style, but refines his timings to be able to scout the coin flips and stuff effectively, which will simply take time. Since IdrA's style heavily benefits from practice, it will take a lot of time for him to become an undisputed beast. And unfortunately, IdrA has been in a less than optimal practice situation since SC2 release. Korean ladder could only get him so far...and NA Ladder...lol. I hope they will be "bootcamping" it in the new EG house because that is what IdrA's style benefits most from. I'd really hope the rest of EG could start showing results too.
I like your explanations of IdrA's play because you analyze situations and IdrAs current status the best.
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Very interesting, I had not seen that interview.
Thanks for posting 
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Well, IdrA may do better next time :\
Also, what exactly does the top box mean by "This is not the "discuss Idra" thread."
The rest of it is clearly worded but that part .. it confuses me a little.
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On June 17 2011 05:14 Probe1 wrote:
Well, IdrA may do better next time :\
Also, what exactly does the top box mean by "This is not the "discuss Idra" thread."
The rest of it is clearly worded but that part .. it confuses me a little.
mainly that it's a fanclub, so most posts should be positive or at least critical in a positive tone. (or at least, that's what I got out of it).
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On June 17 2011 05:14 Probe1 wrote:
Well, IdrA may do better next time :\
Also, what exactly does the top box mean by "This is not the "discuss Idra" thread."
The rest of it is clearly worded but that part .. it confuses me a little.
It means this is not the place for everything Idra. It is the place for Idra's FANS. His haters should just keep away.
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I'm not fully acquainted with how the NASL-playoff system works.
+ Show Spoiler +Does this mean IdrA is permanently OUT of the tournament?
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On June 17 2011 05:19 UBavarice wrote:I'm not fully acquainted with how the NASL-playoff system works. + Show Spoiler +Does this mean IdrA is permanently OUT of the tournament?
yes he's done till next NASL season.
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On June 17 2011 05:19 UBavarice wrote:I'm not fully acquainted with how the NASL-playoff system works. + Show Spoiler +Does this mean IdrA is permanently OUT of the tournament?
He qualifies for next season, but for this season...he is out.
On June 17 2011 05:14 Probe1 wrote:
Also, what exactly does the top box mean by "This is not the "discuss Idra" thread."
The rest of it is clearly worded but that part .. it confuses me a little.
It is for those guys who want to go discuss everything IdrA, and especially warns against negative discussion.
Such as, don't discuss whether IdrA's girlfriend is an attention whore or not, why the fuck is idra so fucking terrible not doing risky builds, idra is such a fucking idiot and his mindset blows, and why the fuck didn't that stupid cunthole idra gg to the emperor of esports.
Stuff like that should be avoided, and although it should be fairly obvious to not bring your opinions of that sort into a fanclub, some TL users feel the need to have their voice heard in unrelated threads. And if you have a legitimate opinion on the issue, bring it up in a polite way.
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OOOHHH a gracken shirt, this guy is excited
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On June 17 2011 05:08 Soulforged wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:05 Whole wrote:
Well, while it sometimes makes IdrA lose, I think his aspect of not taking coin flips actually helps him more. People don't give IdrA credit for his consistency. Because he doesn't take risks, he managed to qualify for every single GSL Open (when was considered very rigorous qualifiers), got out of his Code S groups when he was in Code S, managed to place in every single MLG, and does very well in DH and other tournaments. Very few players can stay that consistent.
I really hope IdrA will keep playing his same standard style, but refines his timings to be able to scout the coin flips and stuff effectively, which will simply take time. Since IdrA's style heavily benefits from practice, it will take a lot of time for him to become an undisputed beast. And unfortunately, IdrA has been in a less than optimal practice situation since SC2 release. Korean ladder could only get him so far...and NA Ladder...lol. I hope they will be "bootcamping" it in the new EG house because that is what IdrA's style benefits most from. I'd really hope the rest of EG could start showing results too. This man speaks wisely. Idra's style pretty much requires perfect condition and very deep research into game situations that can only be acquired through mass practice against THE top notch opponents. It'll be a long time until SC2 is figured enough for someone with Idra's style to become flexible(read: Flash).
Except Flash is nothing like Idra. Flash is constantly coming up with new, unpredictable builds, and he plays mind games extremely well (see his most recent series against Zero). Idra needs to learn to master other styles as well if he really wants to become the best player in the world.
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On June 17 2011 05:44 wzzit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:08 Soulforged wrote:On June 17 2011 05:05 Whole wrote:
Well, while it sometimes makes IdrA lose, I think his aspect of not taking coin flips actually helps him more. People don't give IdrA credit for his consistency. Because he doesn't take risks, he managed to qualify for every single GSL Open (when was considered very rigorous qualifiers), got out of his Code S groups when he was in Code S, managed to place in every single MLG, and does very well in DH and other tournaments. Very few players can stay that consistent.
I really hope IdrA will keep playing his same standard style, but refines his timings to be able to scout the coin flips and stuff effectively, which will simply take time. Since IdrA's style heavily benefits from practice, it will take a lot of time for him to become an undisputed beast. And unfortunately, IdrA has been in a less than optimal practice situation since SC2 release. Korean ladder could only get him so far...and NA Ladder...lol. I hope they will be "bootcamping" it in the new EG house because that is what IdrA's style benefits most from. I'd really hope the rest of EG could start showing results too. This man speaks wisely. Idra's style pretty much requires perfect condition and very deep research into game situations that can only be acquired through mass practice against THE top notch opponents. It'll be a long time until SC2 is figured enough for someone with Idra's style to become flexible(read: Flash). Except Flash is nothing like Idra. Flash is constantly coming up with new, unpredictable builds, and he plays mind games extremely well (see his most recent series against Zero). Idra needs to learn to master other styles as well if he really wants to become the best player in the world.
idra comes up with plenty of new shit, he just hasn't really had a breakthrough yet
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lol the background is so stupid. good interview though
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On June 17 2011 05:08 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:02 mikyaJ wrote:
Now if you're opponent is going for any of those, what should you make? Infestors or Hydras, meaning you get your own lair: simple. This means that Zenio can't just assume, well I hope he's not getting Hydras or Infestors now... that should be assumed, unless the person failed and can't scout your lair.
What this ALL means is that, the damage that the Muta Switch does is directly coorrelated to how much your opponent messes up. If they mess up a lot, you win. If they mess up a little you may do a lot of damage, but not win outright. If they handle it cleanly, then they do barely any damage. Especially when you miss a fungle, you're messing up. It already killed a shit load of drones before the infestor was out.
....
That's because he didn't get them out fast enough >.> 
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On June 17 2011 05:55 mikyaJ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:08 Whole wrote:On June 17 2011 05:02 mikyaJ wrote:
Now if you're opponent is going for any of those, what should you make? Infestors or Hydras, meaning you get your own lair: simple. This means that Zenio can't just assume, well I hope he's not getting Hydras or Infestors now... that should be assumed, unless the person failed and can't scout your lair.
What this ALL means is that, the damage that the Muta Switch does is directly coorrelated to how much your opponent messes up. If they mess up a lot, you win. If they mess up a little you may do a lot of damage, but not win outright. If they handle it cleanly, then they do barely any damage. Especially when you miss a fungle, you're messing up. It already killed a shit load of drones before the infestor was out. .... That's because he didn't get them out fast enough >.>
then the mutas would've flown to the natural and wreak havoc.
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Can't IdrA still qualify for NASL by entering the open bracket??
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EPT
