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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On June 16 2011 19:32 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 18:51 starcraft2rush wrote:On June 16 2011 13:00 SleepTech wrote:On June 16 2011 12:22 Xiaon wrote: still the best zerg takes less risks then zenio No, he is not the best zerg. Maybe best Zerg in NA perhaps. But definitely not 'the best'. I think Zenio is higher then Idra. When was the last time Idra beat Zenio? It's hard to see Idra lose out but I don't really think he cares as much as he needs too. Hopefully soon, he'll start caring. I think you'll see him be unstoppable once that happens. But right now, top zerg in NA most likely. Don't you mean best foreigner zerg? Who is better than IdrA from EU w/ zerg. Sen is the only other contender for this title. Many, Dimaga, Nerchio, Stephano all miles ahead of Idra atm. Idra needs to realise it has gone downhill for many months and that he coulnt qualify for the NASL finals just shows it. He needs to get back with alot of practise.
ahahahahhahahahah #1 @ IPL, #4 @ MLG, #2 @ Tactic 3D tournament whatta fucking downhill, only the best results of all foreigner zergs, shut up you clueless, hatefull cunt.
User was banned for this post.
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Zenio: "Why no GG?" Gracken: "Earn it"
has some1 got the ingame screenshot of that? this needs to be in the OP
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A good analysis of Idra's play vs. Zenio from the NASL thread, credit to Azarkon:
+ Show Spoiler +Zenio coin-flipped, but he coin-flipped with a biased coin - he won the mind games - he predicted what Idra would do, and Idra fell into these predictions.
Against anyone else, the specific coin-flips Zenio did may not have paid off, but against Idra, who Zenio has played and studied, it did.
First game, he 10 pooled on a macro map, knowing that Idra would not be able to resist 15 hatching to maximize his economy (because if there's one thing Idra fears, it's being behind on economy). Yet, even with this prediction, it was a coin-flip because Zenio had to count on scouting Idra in a timely manner. He did, and Idra lost.
Second game, they both opened "safe," and then transitioned into their techs of choice. Zenio went for ling baneling aggression, but could not do damage because Idra went the defensive counter - roaches. Idra then attacked Zenio's natural with a roach-ling timing but failed to break him because Zenio had good simcity with his spines. At this point, they were fairly even. Then Zenio coin-flipped mutas. Had Idra put down a hydra den and made a few hydras, or scouted with a speed overlord or overseer and put down some spores, Zenio would've been dead. But Zenio predicted that Idra was afraid of falling behind on roach numbers after losing a bunch during the "all-in" attack, predicted that Idra had a habit of not scouting in ZvZ and relying on standard play, and so his muta switch paid off. Idra lost.
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these games, and it's not about ZvZ. It's about Idra's play style.
It is very easy to mind game Idra because he is predictable, and he is predictable in a very specific way - he is generally not willing to coin-flip. Except for the one game against Sen, where Idra played out of his style and took Sen completely by surprise with a ling spine-crawler cheese, Idra has just about always opened defensive, "safe" builds.
Idra doesn't like to take chances, and because he doesn't like to take chances, he is often vulnerable to builds that DO take chances. What Idra does not seem to understand, or understands but refuses to change his play-style accordingly, is that while you can't win consistently with a coin-flip build against random opponents, you CAN win consistently with a coin-flip build against specific opponents (ie Idra), because no one really plays "randomly."
Consider the first game. If Idra opened 14 pool, he would've been at an advantage. But does anyone really think that Idra is going to open 14 pool 50% of the times on Terminus, and 15 hatch the other 50% of the times? Or how about the second game - was Idra going to hydra switch 50% of the times, and build drones and roaches the other 50% of the times? No, because Idra, especially, does not like coin-flipping. He has a set of responses that he considers the "best" responses to each situation and uses them. These responses, when known by the opponent, or even when not known by the opponent, can easily be used to meta-game Idra into a loss.
Mind games are a part of SC 2, and in the hands of successful players, they make "coin flips" into "calculated risks" that result, more often than not, in wins. Unfortunately, Idra has always been weak at them. That's partly why he loses more than he should and to players with worse mechanics - because they out-mind game him. Idra does not really understand, I feel, how to mind game, or perhaps it is more insightful to say that Idra's mentality towards the game does not allow him to mind game effectively.
That Idra hates playing from a position of disadvantage makes it hard for him to pull off any successful coin-flips, because whereas a player like Zenio is fine with failing a 10 pool and then playing to get back in the game (a process that usually involves doing more coin-flips), Idra is not. This is what separates Idra from many other players - the fact that he is unwilling to coin flip because he does not or cannot play from a position of disadvantage. This is, in fact, a weakness in his game no matter what Idra tries to excuse it as, because it limits his versatility as a player, and makes him predictable.
I don't know if Idra will ever get over this limitation as a player, but until he does, he's probably going to keep losing in this fashion. tl;dr Idra is predictable, therefore he loses. Zenio was ahead in the mindgames.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9785065
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I liked the analysis but that's not what it said. Or rather it's not that simple.
On June 16 2011 20:05 OrchidThief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 19:32 Nerdslayer wrote:On June 16 2011 18:51 starcraft2rush wrote:On June 16 2011 13:00 SleepTech wrote:On June 16 2011 12:22 Xiaon wrote: still the best zerg takes less risks then zenio No, he is not the best zerg. Maybe best Zerg in NA perhaps. But definitely not 'the best'. I think Zenio is higher then Idra. When was the last time Idra beat Zenio? It's hard to see Idra lose out but I don't really think he cares as much as he needs too. Hopefully soon, he'll start caring. I think you'll see him be unstoppable once that happens. But right now, top zerg in NA most likely. Don't you mean best foreigner zerg? Who is better than IdrA from EU w/ zerg. Sen is the only other contender for this title. Many, Dimaga, Nerchio, Stephano all miles ahead of Idra atm. Idra needs to realise it has gone downhill for many months and that he coulnt qualify for the NASL finals just shows it. He needs to get back with alot of practise. None of those are better than IdrA, and none of those just finished fourth in MLG behind koreans. Not a lot of Europeans go to MLGs; this is hardly an argument. Both Idra and Dimaga will be playing at both DreamHack and the HomeStory Cup, so we'll see.
On June 16 2011 22:49 Lovin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 22:34 Jinsho wrote: Anyone can say anyone is the best. You want something objective, you need to go for something more tangible.
Like owning a cat. Do Nerchio, Zenio, Sen own a cat? No they don't. QED
Neither does IdrA. But Machine does. Actually, Idra had Hobbes while he was still in Korea.
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I thought Idra did very well yesterday. Sad to see him loose vs Zenio, hope he doesn't get too upset about it. The first game was a wash of luck for Zenio, so I don't count that for any amount of skill on his part. The Muta tech switch was a coin flip again for Zenio. I could only fault Idra for not constantly OL, or OS scouting the base to make sure no silly tech switches like that could happen.
I sometimes throw down a hydra den in Roach/Infestor battles for a just in case. It has saved me many times. Plus adding a few hydras to that Roach/Infestor ball doesn't hurt either!
Anyway Idra, HUGE FAN, don't get discouraged!
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The muta flip is what kills me about playing ZvZ. Good luck next time IdrA.
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it seems no one here has mentoned it yet, but, by the time the mutas arrived in his base, idra already had 1 infestor out, with i tihnk 2 more on th way, and he had the upgrade so they spawn with fungal, the mutas were in a tight ball and idra missed the first fungal (hit 1 muta) then left
so the second game wasnt a bo loss, it was an error on idras part, im guessing coz zenio was bming
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On June 16 2011 22:55 caruso wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 22:49 Lovin wrote:On June 16 2011 22:34 Jinsho wrote: Anyone can say anyone is the best. You want something objective, you need to go for something more tangible.
Like owning a cat. Do Nerchio, Zenio, Sen own a cat? No they don't. QED
QED? Quod erat demonstrandum.
I know, I was just saying it proved nothing after all, even if used humourously
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Of course it does. Didn't I just tell you that this is the only criterium for me? Therefore, IdrA is the best zerg in the world, which I just demonstrated.
I pity the people who think results in tournaments are important!
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
Like idra said in the interview with AskJoshy, You cannot live of Tournament prize money alone you need other sources of income; Streaming,Coaching etc etc. Idra knows he is not going to win every single tournament, however everyone fears playing Idra. For the debate of the best foreigner zerg which he easily is. Dimaga/Slush/Nerchio/Stephano are not opponents people are scared to play, recently DeMuslim lost to Nerchio and he said he lost because he was ill and could of easily beat him.
Idra fighting! Watch him own @ Dreamhack!!
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On June 17 2011 01:36 woob wrote: it seems no one here has mentoned it yet, but, by the time the mutas arrived in his base, idra already had 1 infestor out, with i tihnk 2 more on th way, and he had the upgrade so they spawn with fungal, the mutas were in a tight ball and idra missed the first fungal (hit 1 muta) then left
so the second game wasnt a bo loss, it was an error on idras part, im guessing coz zenio was bming
Uh... no
His FIRST infestor spawned after he lost 75% of the drones in his main, his natural had no finished spores either, and he only had the gas to make 2-3 infestors, not enough to fungal mutas to death. He also lost his queens.
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Did Idra's JTV account get hacked or something? The name of the profile is now HERP DERP SHERP and the 'about me' section of his profile says something like, "I'm an arrogant faggot and deserve to be hit in the face." None of the VoD's work, either.
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On June 17 2011 04:04 n00bspanker wrote: Did Idra's JTV account get hacked or something? The name of the profile is now HERP DERP SHERP and the 'about me' section of his profile says something like, "I'm an arrogant faggot and deserve to be hit in the face." None of the VoD's work, either.
JTV seems to have been hacked so I'm guessing some admin account is being abused.
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there has been alot of hacking lately
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I don't want to completely ban any negative discussion about Idra, though, so how about this: post whatever negative comments about Idra you like, but if your post creates a furor and mucks up the thread, I will ban you.
What? this aint cool, this is a fanclub, no other fanclub is allowing BM of its idol. I know IdrA has 100x more haters than other pros but srsly it seems just lazy to not ban the haters from a fanclub.
If people dont have smart or supportive things to say then they shouldn't come to a fanclub to create negative image. Trolls will troll, but they should be banned for it.
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On June 17 2011 04:16 Ronski wrote:Show nested quote +I don't want to completely ban any negative discussion about Idra, though, so how about this: post whatever negative comments about Idra you like, but if your post creates a furor and mucks up the thread, I will ban you. What? this aint cool, this is a fanclub, no other fanclub is allowing BM of its idol. I know IdrA has 100x more haters than other pros but srsly it seems just lazy to not ban the haters from a fanclub. If people dont have smart or supportive things to say then they shouldn't come to a fanclub to create negative image. Trolls will troll, but they should be banned for it.
Bm is one thing, criticizing is another. Foul language and insults should still get you banned, but expressing disappointment in his behavior and such shouldn't.
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idra focussing on DH! FTW!
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On June 17 2011 01:28 Probe1 wrote: The muta flip is what kills me about playing ZvZ. Good luck next time IdrA. How is it a "flip"?
If you scout the lair (which you should do lol or why are you playing if you can't scout a base) what is coming?
Mutas, Infestors, or Hydras.
Now if you're opponent is going for any of those, what should you make? Infestors or Hydras, meaning you get your own lair: simple. This means that Zenio can't just assume, well I hope he's not getting Hydras or Infestors now... that should be assumed, unless the person failed and can't scout your lair.
What this ALL means is that, the damage that the Muta Switch does is directly coorrelated to how much your opponent messes up. If they mess up a lot, you win. If they mess up a little you may do a lot of damage, but not win outright. If they handle it cleanly, then they do barely any damage. Especially when you miss a fungle, you're messing up.
A coinflip build would be something that will win outright if you go a specific build against it. If you're playing correctly, anytime you scout a lair would designate you getting your own lair. So if you lose to the Muta switch it wasn't a coinflip, it was because you didn't respond/scout enough. It could almost be considered cheese because of that, but it's not a coinflip.
Game 1 was a coinflip, but it's not unwinnable. Plus it was Zenio being smart KNOWING when to early pool, but still, it was a coinflip. The problem is that IdrA falls for these kind of mind games all the time, See F91 or MC at MLG.
Edit: in my ignorance I may have misunderstood flip as coinflip, but if that's what he meant, the point still stands -.-
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