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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On March 15 2012 08:32 Antithesis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:
also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Wait, you aren't really arguing NA ladder is harder for Idra because it's... weaker? And more builds refined are easier to stop?
yup
if you look at DRG he knows exactly when everything dangerous will happen, know exactly when everything telltale will happen and knows how to respond to it
but if your opponent is doing something crazy then you dont know what there doing so its harder to get prepared like if they do some heavy gateway push but at a different timing that convinces you its not a heavy gateway push stuff like that
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On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. F.e he uses ling infestor now in zvt and uses more infestors at all in all match-ups which unfortunately seems to be the key to be a succesful zerg.
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On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly.
I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again.
Love the streams w/ commentary lately though.
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As much as his ZvP is looking shaky, I still think his ZvT and ZvZ are very very good. His ling control is amazing and his infestor control is also very nice.
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On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though.
Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude.
Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game.
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On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game.
Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing.
Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does".
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On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does".
You mean you don't want IdrA to have excellent game sense, decision making, and comeback ability? Because that's what Stephano has.
Fans who would rather IdrA not have those skills aren't fans of him being good, in which case you have what you want - an IdrA that doesn't win.
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On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does".
What does this even mean? What does Stephano do and how would you know if Idra was just doing what he does?
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On March 15 2012 08:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:32 Antithesis wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:
also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Wait, you aren't really arguing NA ladder is harder for Idra because it's... weaker? And more builds refined are easier to stop? yup if you look at DRG he knows exactly when everything dangerous will happen, know exactly when everything telltale will happen and knows how to respond to it but if your opponent is doing something crazy then you dont know what there doing so its harder to get prepared like if they do some heavy gateway push but at a different timing that convinces you its not a heavy gateway push stuff like that
so you're saying that NA ladder is harder than korean ladder?
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On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does".
What does this even mean?
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On March 15 2012 09:01 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does". What does this even mean? What does Stephano do and how would you know if Idra was just doing what he does?
You know what? I have no idea. My statement was towards Zerg fans who are also Stephano fans as well as Idra fans and want both to do well. If everyone "does what Stephano does" (whatever that means, something other people want and is no way a creation of my own) then what's the point of having any other player than Stephano? Idra should just do what he does because when he does it's the most beautiful play in this game. Stephano doesn't have the most beautiful play but he does win. I'd rather avoid the latter.
On March 15 2012 08:59 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does". You mean you don't want IdrA to have excellent game sense, decision making, and comeback ability? Because that's what Stephano has. Fans who would rather IdrA not have those skills aren't fans of him being good, in which case you have what you want - an IdrA that doesn't win.
So by doing what Stephano does, Idra will have excellent game sense/decision making/comeback ability? Well shit, I didn't know Stephano was such a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none.
Anybody can do those, they aren't Stephano exclusive. And for people saying "do what Stephano does" then that's not what they mean. They would just say "work on game sense/decision making/comeback ability".
On March 15 2012 09:09 VashTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does". What does this even mean?
Am I the only one who sees this when people talk about Idra losing (primarily ZvP)? I swear, every ZvP he loses the main thing that gets said "watch Stephano", "learn Stephano", "do Stephano".
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On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does".
As DRG has put it Stephano's style seems rather simple. I don't like it either because he seems to do always the same but he does it in such a fashion and perfection that it works great (idra was trying to accomplish such a thing with his muta zvt, didn't work).
Stephano does everything so much more solid and negates some of Idra's harshest criticism with it - that zerg is frequently killed because of coinflips. You can even spot the difference if you watch both losing. While idra seems to randomly quit after minor setbacks or just leave after a clear rollover every defeat has to be forced out off stephano. Idra makes winning look really hard for zerg while stephano makes losing look really hard for zerg. And this is what makes me not like stephano as an idra fan but I can do nothing but admire his playstyle and just hope idra keeps adepting. Even if it means "doing what stephano does".
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Well, I'm not one of those people. I'd rather point out what could be done better than to say "do what xxx does" or "he should copy xxx". That would be silly, tbh.
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On March 15 2012 09:18 Baio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does". As DRG has put it Stephano's style seems rather simple. I don't like it either because he seems to do always the same but he does it in such a fashion and perfection that it works great (idra was trying to accomplish such a thing with his muta zvt, didn't work). Stephano does everything so much more solid and negates some of Idra's harshest criticism with it - that zerg is frequently killed because of coinflips. You can even spot the difference if you watch both losing. While idra seems to randomly quit after minor setbacks or just leave after a clear rollover every defeat has to be forced out off stephano. Idra makes winning look really hard for zerg while stephano makes losing look really hard for zerg. And this is what makes me not like stephano as an idra fan but I can do nothing but admire his playstyle and just hope idra keeps adepting. Even if it means "doing what stephano does".
Good points I forgot to add. Stephano = good, I definitely admire Stephano and his ability to make "losing look really hard" for Zerg. That's definitely true. I also hope Idra keeps adapting and becomes a sort of Idra+. I also hope that means not doing what Stephano does.
I've seen both of them have a lot of success (Autumn 2011) but with different "styles". I don't believe Stephano has a "true way" of Zerg and I also believe that Idra can come up with his own way of playing Zerg. The whole "good play/decision making/blah blah" won't come from Stephano but from Idra himself.
On March 15 2012 09:25 VashTS wrote:
Well, I'm not one of those people. I'd rather point out what could be done better than to say "do what xxx does" or "he should copy xxx". That would be silly, tbh.
I'll be sure to leave your name out of it next time  .
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On March 15 2012 09:18 Baio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 08:54 Hnnngg wrote:On March 15 2012 08:43 Lonyo wrote:On March 15 2012 08:40 Teeky wrote:On March 15 2012 08:35 Baio wrote:On March 15 2012 08:11 Forikorder wrote:On March 15 2012 08:08 Azarkon wrote:
Compare IdrA's win rate when he streams @ high NA masters/GM to Stephano's win rate when he streams @ #1 EU GM and you can already see the problem. Okay, you say, but IdrA doesn't care about ladder - then what does he care about? Because he loses in tournaments like he loses on ladder - to players he thinks are worse than him.
He said yesterday that Stephano is able to do well in tournaments because he's so solid against worse players. Okay - then what about IdrA? Why does IdrA lose to players worse than him? It's one thing if this is a fault of the game, a flaw of SC 2, but seeing the way IdrA plays and loses and the way Stephano plays and loses you don't get that feeling.
IdrA loses because IdrA is not as solid. He knows this, his observers know this, now's the time to do something about it. When IdrA said that he thought Stephano was maphacking before he went to offline events that right there said a lot about IdrA's weaknesses as a player. If he can address those, then there is hope. Otherwise, he's never going to be the player he wants to be. what youve jsut said is so wrong it makes my brain hurt IdrA said that Stephano was good in ZvP becuase he understood Protoss timings really well not becuase he does well agaisnt players worst them him, being good against people under you is such a pointless skill... also IdrA ladders in NA and Stephano ladders in EU, NA people use dumb strats that dont actually make sense, arent refined and hit at wierd timings that can still be deadly if your not prepared, ive heard teh EU ladder is more like the Korean ladder so people actually use more refined builds that are then easier for a pro to stop Do you really believe what you say? Cause that would make my brain hurt........I don't know if Stephano starts laddering on NA but if he does you can be more than sure that he will go on some insane streak. Just because he doesn't lose against "retarded" stuff like pylon blocks Idra frequently loses against. If you really believe that pros have to fear weird builds over refined builds why aren't tournament players using completely random and werid builds? Because they are not good and obviously easier to stop. Stephano is the far better player and it has nothing to do with the ladder both play on.....sadly. I really wish idra would play like Stephano and not be afraid to play from heavy economic and positional disadvantages and put up a million crawlers if it is necessary because he believes in his macro. What makes me happy is that idra is actually learning although very very slowly. I agree, and although I'm a big fan of Idra, I have to honestly admit that I'm holding out for HoTS and potentially dynamic changes in hopes of seeing him become (at least) the best foreign zerg again. Love the streams w/ commentary lately though. Changing the game won't change his terrible attitude. Idra doesn't need a new expansion, he needs to change his attitude and approach to the game. And I'm not talking about BM, because that's irrelevant to the actual playing of the game. Yep, he should just try to win no matter what because that's all that's the only important thing. Or he won't because of the potential to alienate a portion of his "true" fan base in order to accumulate bandwagoners. I want Idra to win but I also care how it's done. I'd rather him lose than "do what Stephano does". As DRG has put it Stephano's style seems rather simple. I don't like it either because he seems to do always the same but he does it in such a fashion and perfection that it works great (idra was trying to accomplish such a thing with his muta zvt, didn't work). Stephano does everything so much more solid and negates some of Idra's harshest criticism with it - that zerg is frequently killed because of coinflips. You can even spot the difference if you watch both losing. While idra seems to randomly quit after minor setbacks or just leave after a clear rollover every defeat has to be forced out off stephano. Idra makes winning look really hard for zerg while stephano makes losing look really hard for zerg. And this is what makes me not like stephano as an idra fan but I can do nothing but admire his playstyle and just hope idra keeps adepting. Even if it means "doing what stephano does".
Quote-worthy material there.
I get the same feeling watching them. When I watch IdrA, I get the feeling it's a struggle for him not to gg every second he plays, while with Stephano, I get the feeling that his opponents really have to work hard for a win.
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People need to stop talking about his mentality. He became the best foreign BW player with the same mentality. Maybe he just isn't suited to sc2 and won't be the best foreigner. Why can't we still enjoy his play and root for him? Everyone needs to relax. He isn't the best zerg but he's still my favorite zerg. Those things shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
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Because it's hard to enjoy his play when he loose when he could/ should win? When you see others do well against the same oponments and you wonder wtf ? The only thing I still enjoy is his muta control. For the rest, he has not adapted, and it's a shame. Because behing bad ass AND winning is, and should be the Idra trademark... But right now, his record is bleak.
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this thread ended up on the hotlist, so what did he do this time?
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On March 15 2012 10:13 emc wrote:
this thread ended up on the hotlist, so what did he do this time?
What's "the hotlist" and how do we make sure IdrA's place on it is permanent?
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On March 15 2012 10:13 emc wrote:
this thread ended up on the hotlist, so what did he do this time?
He streamed for 90 minutes, showcasing rather average play, and lost 0-2 against Symbol in Iron Squid in an unexciting fashion (falling behind due to some good moves of Symbol - nydus, multi-pronged attacks - and gg'ing instantly).
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EPT
