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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On March 14 2012 16:23 idonthinksobro wrote:
isn't zerg doing really well in korea nowadays?
i wonder if he still considers a switch, his reasoning always was he doesn't want to play zerg because protoss is op but the latest figures show ~60/40 wlr in ZvP in favor of zerg in korea. And two of the best zerg players seem unstopable nowadays (stephano and drg), i am pretty sure idra could be up there too. I don't really know why he isn't really, his mechanics and game knowledge seems to be really good, he is also aware of the current metagame and knows many of his opponents really well(his casts at iem were amazing).
Oh no zerg is doing the worst out of the three races in korea in both match ups zvt and zvp. The only zerg who's doing really well lately is DRG, Leenock last season (which was 4 months ago now already?). This GSL was a rough one for zerg, even though a zerg won there were only a few zergs in ro16 like 3 I think (code s)? But yeah rough first season for zerg in GSL.
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As long as he doesn't switch to Protoss. x)
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IdrA vs Symbol in 5 hours, for the Iron Squid tournament!
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On March 14 2012 16:45 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 16:23 idonthinksobro wrote:
isn't zerg doing really well in korea nowadays?
i wonder if he still considers a switch, his reasoning always was he doesn't want to play zerg because protoss is op but the latest figures show ~60/40 wlr in ZvP in favor of zerg in korea. And two of the best zerg players seem unstopable nowadays (stephano and drg), i am pretty sure idra could be up there too. I don't really know why he isn't really, his mechanics and game knowledge seems to be really good, he is also aware of the current metagame and knows many of his opponents really well(his casts at iem were amazing).
Oh no zerg is doing the worst out of the three races in korea in both match ups zvt and zvp. The only zerg who's doing really well lately is DRG, Leenock last season (which was 4 months ago now already?). This GSL was a rough one for zerg, even though a zerg won there were only a few zergs in ro16 like 3 I think (code s)? But yeah rough first season for zerg in GSL.
No it was 60% in favor of toss.
http://imgur.com/a/1aAfu
The only reason because Stephano and DRG wins shit is because protoss lets them get away with it. You see Stephano getting a forth at like 9 minutes vs FFE and starts making drones with just 10 roaches and 30 lings. He makes like 12 spines and makes some infestors while toss sits on 3 colossus and dont want to attack. He gets his double spires up, 6 bases and then he gets broodlord before they attack. Like tosses sit on their asses and don't punish him for doing shit like this.
DRG only own GSL because Genius did some mistakes. Micro mistake with the proxy stargate, gamble with the Carrier and he had bad decision making the last game as he just stood with his stalkers shooting at the spine crawlers at the third without flanking around.
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But aren't the other races winning because we (zerg) is letting them get away with it?
Fast third orbital with no threat, teching to blink and colo at the same time while Zerg tries to get up more economy safer, sitting and waiting to be punched.
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On March 15 2012 00:12 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 16:45 blade55555 wrote:On March 14 2012 16:23 idonthinksobro wrote:
isn't zerg doing really well in korea nowadays?
i wonder if he still considers a switch, his reasoning always was he doesn't want to play zerg because protoss is op but the latest figures show ~60/40 wlr in ZvP in favor of zerg in korea. And two of the best zerg players seem unstopable nowadays (stephano and drg), i am pretty sure idra could be up there too. I don't really know why he isn't really, his mechanics and game knowledge seems to be really good, he is also aware of the current metagame and knows many of his opponents really well(his casts at iem were amazing).
Oh no zerg is doing the worst out of the three races in korea in both match ups zvt and zvp. The only zerg who's doing really well lately is DRG, Leenock last season (which was 4 months ago now already?). This GSL was a rough one for zerg, even though a zerg won there were only a few zergs in ro16 like 3 I think (code s)? But yeah rough first season for zerg in GSL. No it was 60% in favor of toss. http://imgur.com/a/1aAfuThe only reason because Stephano and DRG wins shit is because protoss lets them get away with it. You see Stephano getting a forth at like 9 minutes vs FFE and starts making drones with just 10 roaches and 30 lings. He makes like 12 spines and makes some infestors while toss sits on 3 colossus and dont want to attack. He gets his double spires up, 6 bases and then he gets broodlord before they attack. Like tosses sit on their asses and don't punish him for doing shit like this. DRG only own GSL because Genius did some mistakes. Micro mistake with the proxy stargate, gamble with the Carrier and he had bad decision making the last game as he just stood with his stalkers shooting at the spine crawlers at the third without flanking around.
so how do you compute then that last month korean zvp was 56% zerg favored? or that international zvp is zerg favored for almost a year now consistently?
you're making it seem much worse than it really is. only a few months ago zvp in korea was MUCH more zerg favored than it is p favored now. and at that time toss didn't even have one player who beats everyone like drg is now.
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Czech Republic189 Posts
On March 15 2012 00:12 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 16:45 blade55555 wrote:On March 14 2012 16:23 idonthinksobro wrote:
isn't zerg doing really well in korea nowadays?
i wonder if he still considers a switch, his reasoning always was he doesn't want to play zerg because protoss is op but the latest figures show ~60/40 wlr in ZvP in favor of zerg in korea. And two of the best zerg players seem unstopable nowadays (stephano and drg), i am pretty sure idra could be up there too. I don't really know why he isn't really, his mechanics and game knowledge seems to be really good, he is also aware of the current metagame and knows many of his opponents really well(his casts at iem were amazing).
Oh no zerg is doing the worst out of the three races in korea in both match ups zvt and zvp. The only zerg who's doing really well lately is DRG, Leenock last season (which was 4 months ago now already?). This GSL was a rough one for zerg, even though a zerg won there were only a few zergs in ro16 like 3 I think (code s)? But yeah rough first season for zerg in GSL. No it was 60% in favor of toss. http://imgur.com/a/1aAfuThe only reason because Stephano and DRG wins shit is because protoss lets them get away with it. You see Stephano getting a forth at like 9 minutes vs FFE and starts making drones with just 10 roaches and 30 lings. He makes like 12 spines and makes some infestors while toss sits on 3 colossus and dont want to attack. He gets his double spires up, 6 bases and then he gets broodlord before they attack. Like tosses sit on their asses and don't punish him for doing shit like this. DRG only own GSL because Genius did some mistakes. Micro mistake with the proxy stargate, gamble with the Carrier and he had bad decision making the last game as he just stood with his stalkers shooting at the spine crawlers at the third without flanking around.
No it wasnt. In these graphs zerg never gets below 50% in ZvP. In fact in January Zerg had 60%.
And no, Stephano and DRG and other zergs arent wining because they are greedy, but because they are better than Idra (overall) thus they win more 
Genius did builds which gave him highest chance of wining. Thats it.
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attacking before hive is kinda all in for zerg because u skip drones and get behind economically.
everything else is just small harass/pressure/counter-attacks and wont kill turtling siegetank/protoss.
edit: stupid balance discussion in fan threads..
looking forward to ironsquid this evening.
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@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
@Haxer: But zerg had 40% vs toss in korea? Yes so what 60% my point remains that statistics are bad for balance. I wouldn't even use the graphs atm which say that protoss is stronger in win rates to argue that toss is OP.
Are you serious? Stephano plays super greedy I suggest you check this daily:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-429-p1-stephano-s-zvp-late-game-style-6009413
Stephano gets like 12 spines and splits the map, then makes drones and infestors. Protoss sits on 150 supply with two-three colossus and expands and doesn't just push and kill him. How is like three spines and eight infestors supposed to hold that off (three spines at a location, 12 in total spread out).
DRG won because Genius made mistakes my point remains check above and if you don't understand you should play ZvP at a higher level and watch the finals again.
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it's not really stupid balance talk, it's the understanding of the winrate charts. i don't get those excuses "genius would've won" blah blah blah. everyone can explain how a player could have won, what matters is what actually happened in the game. everyone should be willing to acknowledge their favorite player's weaknesses, idra's seems to be zvp and even then he beat huk and almost beat oz...
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On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point
seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange
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and what have winrate charts to do with acknowledging idras weaknesses?
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On March 15 2012 00:45 Fortii wrote:
and what have winrate charts to do with acknowledging idras weaknesses?
The gracken embodies the Zerg race as a whole, so when we're not doing well he's affected.
Oh and @the last stream session o.O Greg is listening to the community? What's going on.
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On March 15 2012 00:45 Fortii wrote:
and what have winrate charts to do with acknowledging idras weaknesses?
winrate charts are a good indicator of the situation of a matchup. not perfect of course, but at least some data.
idra's weakness has been zvp even when the charts were heavily in z's favour (in fact they have been z favoured for almost a year at international games). but here are 15 excuses per thread page why this is true for idra. not explanations, excuses. even when everything says it's z favored. seems strange to me.
i don't even hate him or anything but i don't get this attitude...
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On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange
It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it.
Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play.
It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire)
EDIT: I don't think going after statistics at all is a good base for balance I just started discussing it because I knew others did think it was a good point for balance.
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On March 15 2012 00:54 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it. Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play. It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire)
yeah i agree that those finals weren't exactly perfect from genius' perspective.
but everything you say in truth can be interpreted as vica versa... same thing could be said about zergs condition, or that they felt better... i agree statistics are not perfect but at least better than assumptions based on our subjective opinions... same thing about the more p in brackeds could be said about zergs either...
skillcap difference is debatable too, not factual at all. statistics aren't perfect, but still better than all these subjective assumptions. and additionally in a player's fanclub bias towards his race is highly suspicious
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On March 15 2012 01:00 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 00:54 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it. Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play. It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire) yeah i agree that those finals weren't exactly perfect from genius' perspective. but everything you say in truth can be interpreted as vica versa... same thing could be said about zergs condition, or that they felt better... i agree statistics are not perfect but at least better than assumptions based on our subjective opinions... same thing about the more p in brackeds could be said about zergs either... skillcap difference is debatable too, not factual at all. statistics aren't perfect, but still better than all these subjective assumptions. and additionally in a player's fanclub bias towards his race is highly suspicious
Well then this is entirely irrelevant. At this moment everything will be interpreted as subjective. The only way to determine balance is to look at specific replay examples where toss sits on their ass the entire game then moves out on 4-6 base with a deathball that cannot be beaten.
Well there's a reason I'm saying this in the IDRA fanclub if you havn't noticed. Everyone comes in here to bitch about ZvP since Idra says it's a broken matchup which I agree with. BIAS or not, go after specific examples thats all I can say.
But the only arguments you have had is that zerg wins more than protoss, and after that you acknowledge that Genius played bad in the finals vs DRG.
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On March 15 2012 01:05 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 01:00 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:54 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it. Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play. It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire) yeah i agree that those finals weren't exactly perfect from genius' perspective. but everything you say in truth can be interpreted as vica versa... same thing could be said about zergs condition, or that they felt better... i agree statistics are not perfect but at least better than assumptions based on our subjective opinions... same thing about the more p in brackeds could be said about zergs either... skillcap difference is debatable too, not factual at all. statistics aren't perfect, but still better than all these subjective assumptions. and additionally in a player's fanclub bias towards his race is highly suspicious Well then this is entirely irrelevant. At this moment everything will be interpreted as subjective. The only way to determine balance is to look at specific replay examples where toss sits on their ass the entire game then moves out on 4-6 base with a deathball that cannot be beaten. Well there's a reason I'm saying this in the IDRA fanclub if you havn't noticed. Everyone comes in here to bitch about ZvP since Idra says it's a broken matchup which I agree with. BIAS or not, go after specific examples thats all I can say. But the only arguments you have had is that zerg wins more than protoss, and after that you acknowledge that Genius played bad in the finals vs DRG.
Are you saying that it is easy for protoss to establish 4-6 bases? Can Zerg not attack before then? I mean i have seen dozen of examples where Protoss tries the very same thing you mention only to get overrun by a steady stream of roaches.
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Czech Republic189 Posts
On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month. @Haxer: But zerg had 40% vs toss in korea? Yes so what 60% my point remains that statistics are bad for balance. I wouldn't even use the graphs atm which say that protoss is stronger in win rates to argue that toss is OP. Are you serious? Stephano plays super greedy I suggest you check this daily: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-429-p1-stephano-s-zvp-late-game-style-6009413Stephano gets like 12 spines and splits the map, then makes drones and infestors. Protoss sits on 150 supply with two-three colossus and expands and doesn't just push and kill him. How is like three spines and eight infestors supposed to hold that off (three spines at a location, 12 in total spread out). DRG won because Genius made mistakes my point remains check above and if you don't understand you should play ZvP at a higher level and watch the finals again.
Ok, so you are saying that Stephano plays greedy and 80% of his oponents is stupid, and dont kill him, when he has 3 spines versus 486258225646 units? Lol, u dont understand game at all or you are just blind. Almost every zerg play mutas or spine infestor brood turtle, or combination. Stephano just execute it better than other foreign zergs. He makes 80 drones because ho KNOWS no attack is probably coming and he can afford it. Thats difference between him and Idra. Stephano rarely looses to rushes or 2 base timings. You can cry that toss is imba all day, but that does not make it truth.
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Have Stephano recently played any top tier toss? The difference between the korean protoss and the foreigner protoss is pretty fucking huge, and I'm nore sure Stephano has played any recently. If he did play one though, and he beat him, please link me to VODs/replays, as I need to learn how to beat protoss :3
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EPT
