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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On March 15 2012 02:29 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 01:10 MONXY FIST wrote:On March 15 2012 01:05 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 01:00 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:54 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it. Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play. It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire) yeah i agree that those finals weren't exactly perfect from genius' perspective. but everything you say in truth can be interpreted as vica versa... same thing could be said about zergs condition, or that they felt better... i agree statistics are not perfect but at least better than assumptions based on our subjective opinions... same thing about the more p in brackeds could be said about zergs either... skillcap difference is debatable too, not factual at all. statistics aren't perfect, but still better than all these subjective assumptions. and additionally in a player's fanclub bias towards his race is highly suspicious Well then this is entirely irrelevant. At this moment everything will be interpreted as subjective. The only way to determine balance is to look at specific replay examples where toss sits on their ass the entire game then moves out on 4-6 base with a deathball that cannot be beaten. Well there's a reason I'm saying this in the IDRA fanclub if you havn't noticed. Everyone comes in here to bitch about ZvP since Idra says it's a broken matchup which I agree with. BIAS or not, go after specific examples thats all I can say. But the only arguments you have had is that zerg wins more than protoss, and after that you acknowledge that Genius played bad in the finals vs DRG. Are you saying that it is easy for protoss to establish 4-6 bases? Can Zerg not attack before then? I mean i have seen dozen of examples where Protoss tries the very same thing you mention only to get overrun by a steady stream of roaches. Forcefields are pretty good. Maps like entombed let toss get a free third, get deathball move out get forth base and when it's up you can pretty much do what you want as a toss and at this point. Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 02:21 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 01:05 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 01:00 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:54 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it. Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play. It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire) yeah i agree that those finals weren't exactly perfect from genius' perspective. but everything you say in truth can be interpreted as vica versa... same thing could be said about zergs condition, or that they felt better... i agree statistics are not perfect but at least better than assumptions based on our subjective opinions... same thing about the more p in brackeds could be said about zergs either... skillcap difference is debatable too, not factual at all. statistics aren't perfect, but still better than all these subjective assumptions. and additionally in a player's fanclub bias towards his race is highly suspicious Well then this is entirely irrelevant. At this moment everything will be interpreted as subjective. The only way to determine balance is to look at specific replay examples where toss sits on their ass the entire game then moves out on 4-6 base with a deathball that cannot be beaten. Well there's a reason I'm saying this in the IDRA fanclub if you havn't noticed. Everyone comes in here to bitch about ZvP since Idra says it's a broken matchup which I agree with. BIAS or not, go after specific examples thats all I can say. But the only arguments you have had is that zerg wins more than protoss, and after that you acknowledge that Genius played bad in the finals vs DRG. first, not everything is subjective. statistics aren't subjective. second, your imaginary extremely biased scenario would be "the only way to determine balance"? toss sits on his ass and moves out on 4-6 base? lol i don't even think you believe it goes like this. majority of toss wins are from 2 base timings in early-midgame. if the protoss gets a deathball, zerg should have broodlord+infestor which is just as scary. i know you're in the idra fanclub but believe or not, it's not obligatory to be extremely biased here, even if you think so. your argument was basically "i don't care about statistics or tourny results, protoss is retarded they deathball amove blah blah", even mine were better than that. Not really. I mean nothing can beat voidray, colossus, archon, templar, mothership, Also your argument is basically: NO you're wrong I'm right. Everything is subjective at this point because theres no fucking replays to show you "HERE ZERG IS IMBA". Yes toss wins on 2base timings because they chose to do wtf is your point? My point being that if toss plays well and the maps allow it they can get alot of bases and just build a deathball. Hive tech comes at around 20 minutes any earlier is extremely risky and vulnerable to timings. At this point toss will have four bases, mothership and all of their tech, if they chose to get it that is. You may just say "Nope this isnt how it is, zerg will deny that base with a bigger army and remax and win or have broodlords in time". If he tries to get broodlords that early you can just kill him in the HUGE timing before them, when toss is on 3base and builds a deathball you need broodlords and infestors to trade cost efficiently anything else will not trade efficiently. Stephano: http://day9.tv/d9d429/Just watch and then say something valid. Stephano basically hold any aggression, goes 4base at 9 minutes gets infestors early, gets a few spines and just makes infestors, makes drones and spines get fifth and sixth, more drones, double spire, toss just sits back. My point being he techs off NOTHING and gets away with it and people call it unbeatable. Since he also invests alot into spines people could just expo even more, but they dont. Stephano havn't played vs any korean protosses recently and that is probably the biggest difference in terms of race-nationality. Foreigner and korean protosses have a huge skill difference.
I had trouble following most of this but I'll respond to what I think your main point is, which is that Stephano is getting lucky because Toss isn't being aggressive enough.
I've watched a ton of Stephano games and I can tell you that if you attack Stephano even if he's teching he will usually make you pay. Numerous Protosses have attempted to kill Stephano while he's teching and have been unsuccessful. (Go to youtube and search for "Grubby and Stephano" and watch all of those games and you will see that even when Grubby tries to attack Stephano at seemingly awkward times Stephano can (against Grubby at least) always defend successfully).
He always has spare larvae that he can use for roaches if he senses you're being aggressive. Moreover, even if caught off guard, he can stall with fungals while he morphs in enough units to handle whatever Protoss has (watch Part III of the Day 9 overview). You simply can't attack into spines, infestors and supporting units (roaches, corruptors and lings typically) and get away with it if the zerg has very good control, which Stephano does.
Protosses have tried to break Stephano by blinking into the main, using a warp prism, using multiple warp prisms, blinking into the fourth, attacking the spines with Collossi, mass air strategies, etc. None of it has worked even remotely consistently (in part because Stephano has great multitasking and map awareness). The usual outcome is that the attacking force is nailed down with fungals and then killed by the supporting units. The Protoss limps away, licking his wounds, and Stephano continues teching.
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This balance discussion is getting pretty stupid honestly. I also don't believe this is the right place to have it. May I recommend the battle.net forums? Everybody agrees Stephano is the best foreigner zerg. Nobody agrees on the balance of ZvP. Can we move on?
In on-topic news, IdrA plays Symbol in 35 minutes - ZvZ. Hopefully it goes past the baneling war phase of the game. I assume the games were played while IdrA was still in Korea.
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On March 15 2012 02:29 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 01:10 MONXY FIST wrote:On March 15 2012 01:05 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 01:00 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:54 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it. Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play. It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire) yeah i agree that those finals weren't exactly perfect from genius' perspective. but everything you say in truth can be interpreted as vica versa... same thing could be said about zergs condition, or that they felt better... i agree statistics are not perfect but at least better than assumptions based on our subjective opinions... same thing about the more p in brackeds could be said about zergs either... skillcap difference is debatable too, not factual at all. statistics aren't perfect, but still better than all these subjective assumptions. and additionally in a player's fanclub bias towards his race is highly suspicious Well then this is entirely irrelevant. At this moment everything will be interpreted as subjective. The only way to determine balance is to look at specific replay examples where toss sits on their ass the entire game then moves out on 4-6 base with a deathball that cannot be beaten. Well there's a reason I'm saying this in the IDRA fanclub if you havn't noticed. Everyone comes in here to bitch about ZvP since Idra says it's a broken matchup which I agree with. BIAS or not, go after specific examples thats all I can say. But the only arguments you have had is that zerg wins more than protoss, and after that you acknowledge that Genius played bad in the finals vs DRG. Are you saying that it is easy for protoss to establish 4-6 bases? Can Zerg not attack before then? I mean i have seen dozen of examples where Protoss tries the very same thing you mention only to get overrun by a steady stream of roaches. Forcefields are pretty good. Maps like entombed let toss get a free third, get deathball move out get forth base and when it's up you can pretty much do what you want as a toss and at this point. Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 02:21 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 01:05 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 01:00 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:54 Olsson wrote:On March 15 2012 00:43 msjakofsky wrote:On March 15 2012 00:41 Olsson wrote:
@msjakofsky: The metagame switches? Statistics are unreliable? Players make mistakes? Going after statistics is fucking retarded since you don't know if all the tosses went mass zealot vs roaches this month.
this works vica versa you don't know if the zergs droned to 130 vs 2base all in in february. and statistics were the starting point of this debate, so i don't get your point seems to me that even if zergs win most of the time there is always an explanation here how protoss is overpowered vs zerg, which is kinda strange It doesn't work vice versa since the races have different skillcaps and there's always a possibility that protoss players just felt better when they started to play that day and performed better and zergies maybe played bad? I mean statistics just ARE NOT reliable unless you would be super picky and pick just the prime examples of replays into it. Zergs win most of the time? Well I don't know what that's supposed to mean because there are alot of factors in tournaments so it's hard to say Zerg wins more than toss. For example if a bracket is packed with more toss than any other bracket it will mean that more protosses are eliminated towards the quarter finals and so on as they wont get out of group play. It's better to look at specific replay examples where you can actually see that protoss made a mistake and if he wouldnt of had done that mistake he would've won. Genius vs DRG good example, the entire finals is based around Genius gambling (Carriers) or making a mistake (Proxy Stargate mis-focus fire) yeah i agree that those finals weren't exactly perfect from genius' perspective. but everything you say in truth can be interpreted as vica versa... same thing could be said about zergs condition, or that they felt better... i agree statistics are not perfect but at least better than assumptions based on our subjective opinions... same thing about the more p in brackeds could be said about zergs either... skillcap difference is debatable too, not factual at all. statistics aren't perfect, but still better than all these subjective assumptions. and additionally in a player's fanclub bias towards his race is highly suspicious Well then this is entirely irrelevant. At this moment everything will be interpreted as subjective. The only way to determine balance is to look at specific replay examples where toss sits on their ass the entire game then moves out on 4-6 base with a deathball that cannot be beaten. Well there's a reason I'm saying this in the IDRA fanclub if you havn't noticed. Everyone comes in here to bitch about ZvP since Idra says it's a broken matchup which I agree with. BIAS or not, go after specific examples thats all I can say. But the only arguments you have had is that zerg wins more than protoss, and after that you acknowledge that Genius played bad in the finals vs DRG. first, not everything is subjective. statistics aren't subjective. second, your imaginary extremely biased scenario would be "the only way to determine balance"? toss sits on his ass and moves out on 4-6 base? lol i don't even think you believe it goes like this. majority of toss wins are from 2 base timings in early-midgame. if the protoss gets a deathball, zerg should have broodlord+infestor which is just as scary. i know you're in the idra fanclub but believe or not, it's not obligatory to be extremely biased here, even if you think so. your argument was basically "i don't care about statistics or tourny results, protoss is retarded they deathball amove blah blah", even mine were better than that. Not really. I mean nothing can beat voidray, colossus, archon, templar, mothership, Also your argument is basically: NO you're wrong I'm right. Everything is subjective at this point because theres no fucking replays to show you "HERE ZERG IS IMBA". Yes toss wins on 2base timings because they chose to do wtf is your point? My point being that if toss plays well and the maps allow it they can get alot of bases and just build a deathball. Hive tech comes at around 20 minutes any earlier is extremely risky and vulnerable to timings. At this point toss will have four bases, mothership and all of their tech, if they chose to get it that is. You may just say "Nope this isnt how it is, zerg will deny that base with a bigger army and remax and win or have broodlords in time". If he tries to get broodlords that early you can just kill him in the HUGE timing before them, when toss is on 3base and builds a deathball you need broodlords and infestors to trade cost efficiently anything else will not trade efficiently. Stephano: http://day9.tv/d9d429/Just watch and then say something valid. Stephano basically hold any aggression, goes 4base at 9 minutes gets infestors early, gets a few spines and just makes infestors, makes drones and spines get fifth and sixth, more drones, double spire, toss just sits back. My point being he techs off NOTHING and gets away with it and people call it unbeatable. Since he also invests alot into spines people could just expo even more, but they dont. Stephano havn't played vs any korean protosses recently and that is probably the biggest difference in terms of race-nationality. Foreigner and korean protosses have a huge skill difference.
sigh, i'll take the time to reply once more
nothing can beat toss deathball? too bad it's widely accepted in these forums and amongst programers that mass broodlord corruptor infestor > toss deathball. only decent counter is a big archon toilet which is countered by spreading broodlords (it doesn't even work for corruptors btw). everyone agrees also that this is a terrible counter. also void rays are so not that good in deathball since fungal buff.
everything is subjective? nope, statistics and tournament results are still not subjective. try to comprehend
toss wins on 2 base what is my point? the point is you're complaining about deathball. 2base timing is not deathball. majority of pvz wins come from 2base timings. try to comprehend this also.
you say hive comes at 20 minutes but you assume toss will have a deathball with every single possible tech and a lot of bases. wtf is the zerg doing if toss turtles so hard? zerg can outexpo p and easily tech to hive way faster than 20 min if toss is that defensive. also you mention that easy 3rd, that's not even possible on half of the maps while it's always possible for zerg.
and i said nothing about stephano sorry... but if the protoss don't kill him it's "because they chose to wtf is your point"
everything you say is mindless zerg-biased rant about protoss. like everything. my argument is that your arguments are wrong. it's possible to argue in a sensible way between players of 2 different races, but it seems like you hate protoss so irrationally that it's impossible with you.
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On March 15 2012 04:37 Poebes wrote:
Will it be live?
IronSquid is pre-recorded and off replays, afaik.
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Idra is streeeaaaamiiiingggg
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On March 15 2012 04:38 Thrax wrote:IronSquid is pre-recorded and of replays, afaik.
Of replays yes, but casting is live on both french and english stream.
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@The_Darkness:
In Stephano vs Grubby Stephano doesn't even play the same style he does today. In those games grubby did light harass, pushed out with like 5 sentries 5 stalkers and two colossus in g2 and in g1 he did a horrible engagement as he double expanded. These games were casted in nov 2011.
I'm referring to the more recent style of play which stephano plays. He techs without any units but infestors and spines. And just so you know five spines at one spot (think of shakuras) with eight infestors behind isn't that good. You can easily blink past and snipe the infestors ofcourse this all comes down to micro whoever gets the fungal or blink off first. In the Day9 daily Stephano doesn't have money to morph units he spends it ALL on drones, expansion, upgrades, tech and spines. And the amount of spines are spread out so they can't take on the main army of the player hes facing.
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Why do you make me chose between you and stephano? T.T nerd problems
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idra streams while he is on ironsquid, lol ^^
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What's up with no quality options on his stream? Am I the only one with that problem?
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why you gotta BM everyone for no reason?
if you face someone on ladder thats obviously worse then you - lets be honest, most of them are especially on NA
why do you have to tell them they're bad/tell them to get out just cos they're not as good as you?
we all know you dont play this game for fun, all you do is complain about it, but there are still people out there who ladder for fun, and dont need you coming along to tell them that they're crap or w/e
not flaming or anything, just saying, why you gotta do it?
User was warned for this post
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im so nervous for today.
prove the hater wrong greg!
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On March 15 2012 04:56 ThatGuy89 wrote:
why you gotta BM everyone for no reason?
if you face someone on ladder thats obviously worse then you - lets be honest, most of them are especially on NA
why do you have to tell them they're bad/tell them to get out just cos they're not as good as you?
we all know you dont play this game for fun, all you do is complain about it, but there are still people out there who ladder for fun, and dont need you coming along to tell them that they're crap or w/e
not flaming or anything, just saying, why you gotta do it?
User was warned for this post
The infidels are wasting his time!
(kidding of course)
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Greg back in the wife beaters.
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Iron Squid starting up soon!
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IdrA is gonna be playing in Iron Squid right now.
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/IronSquid
He's also streaming during it so maybe he lost and doesn't want people to watch....
By the way, has anyone else noticed that IdrA has really stepped his creep spread up? It seems like he's really prioritizing it.
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Facepalm when I saw two huge walls of text discussing ZvP balance at the top of this page. But .. where else would it appropriate other then idra's fanclub right?  .
Besides i think stephano is best zerg right now but his ZvP style isn't unbeatable . Watch his stream when he plays against white ra , you'll see that he is indeed mortal and loses frequently.
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Greg is a blademaster (BM) that's how he's playing on two different places omg,
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EPT
