EPTThe IdrA Fan Club - Page 1468
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
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NonConGuy
United States416 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:32 Nepomuk001 wrote: I think Idra's gg in the second gae was too premature. He had a big enough roach army to make damage in MC's base, and he had the spines and spores at the bottom of his main to hold a little bit the army of MC. I don't know.... Also, i think the only thing Zerg needs is a fast overlord from the beginning, for better scouting. That's my opinion. It seemed premature but I think it was a lost cause, Idra only had spire tech (no pool or roach warren) and MC still had his stargate and 4+ gateways which could still pump out voidrays and sentries to defend. back to the drawing boards and figure out how to beat this strategy | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
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MrDudeMan
Canada973 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:41 Heavenly wrote: IdrA should have placed his spore closer to the ramp, and left 3-4 roaches in the main. Four sentries are not very good versus four roaches and he has enough forewarning of any attack incoming to bring those roaches down. Not imba. IdrA was caught off guard. This is the same nonsense people complained over about blue flame hellion marine elevators, then people realized they can just make another queen, and now people are proposing completely gamebreaking 'solutions' because it won a game Its not really the drop that people are complaining about. Its the fact that ff's are too strong vs Z in early game. You can defend against the drop easily if you know its coming, but there's literally nothing you can do about a ff on your ramp. Also, since zerg has no tier 1 AA (other than queens which are like 1 per base), theres barely a risk involved. On November 20 2011 13:44 Whole wrote: That series was horrible. I'm sure there are ways to counter ramp FF's (Roaches in main sounds good), but there is nothing fun about it. You counter it, and win; you don't, you lose. There isn't any grey area or back and forth situations when it comes to Forcefields. You don't even win if you counter it. The protoss just goes home and resumes play as normal. Though on dual site you probably win, because theres no way for the P to get a third. | ||
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hysterial
United States2044 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:13 Grackodile wrote: Pretty sure if you are playing as zerg with half of your army in your main you are just as much at risk to dropping the sentries below the ramp and losing your natural so that is really a dumb comment. You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. | ||
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Hnnngg
United States1101 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote: You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. Are you serious? You can have your entire army and still get runover by a Protoss army. | ||
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote: You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games.  | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:45 MrDudeMan wrote: Its not really the drop that people are complaining about. Its the fact that ff's are too strong vs Z in early game. You can defend against the drop easily if you know its coming, but there's literally nothing you can do about a ff on your ramp. That's why you prevent the drop on your ramp in the first place? Blue flame hellions even in their nerfed state getting into your mineral line is pretty bad too, that's why you have to be prepared or it. Zergs are just more lenient against protoss atm because it's not something on their minds like it is in ZvT. Come on, are you honestly going to say there is no way to prevent four extremely fragile, low dps sentries near your ramp? How do you feel about mutas in ZvP, since that has to be far more frustrating to deal with? On November 20 2011 13:49 ThaZenith wrote: Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games. If you need half your army up a ramp to be able to beat four sentries, you should probably lay off the drones for three larva. | ||
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Scisyhp
United States200 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:38 msjakofsky wrote: and your point? if you can't harass someone you should be punished? mutas don't self destruct if there is good anti air defense either, they fly away and it's impossible to catch up to them. yeah it's abusive, just like well positioned siege tanks are abusing terrain, mutas are abusing the map too, half of the units can be used to "abuse" something. i get it fans are bitter cuz idra lost, but what the hell do you expect? MC knows idra can be destroyed with special tactics, so he uses them, no need to hate on him, just think about boxer who bunker rushed yellow 3 times in a row (and still they're friends). and especially don't hate on him cuz idra cheesed in both games and this sentry drop is so easy to defend. Except a warp prism costs less than 1 muta, and you would have those sentries anyways, so a lot less is wasted with an idle warp prism compared to idle mutas. Low-risk/high-reward screws stuff up, and that's the key problem with plays like this. And if a zerg moves into a protoss's main with mutas, the protoss can a) warp in stalkers to defend within 5 seconds and b) walk existing stalkers into main to help defend. Zerg can produce units in main (except we only get part of our production available, not all like a protoss would against mutas) but cannot use any existing units to help defend. Additionally, warp prisms allow the protoss to produce inside the blocked-off zerg main, developing his own army to crush reinforcements. This would be similar to a zerg dropping in units in addition to using a nydus (which costs 250/300 and has a limited rate at which units can be deployed). With all this and warp prisms having a huge amount of shields, it is virtually impossible to stop this unless prepared, and even if a zerg is prepared I know I have seen minigun, on his stream, just walk his main army up, and when he sees army units in the main he just FF's ramp from low ground, proceeds to roflstomp half of zerg army at natural and kill that, then pushes into main and kills other half of zerg army. | ||
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damod
1106 Posts
the only thing we can do is hope that idrA will study the these replays well, practice this build with huk and be prepared for the next time him and MC will play. theorycrafting and balance balming wont do any good T_T | ||
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Ravnemesteren
224 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote: You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. The whole idea is idiotic anyways. Drops should be something you should be able to react to. "DAMN, my army wasnt in my main base.... I lost... Guess I will never move out again". And people talking about putting spores next to the ramp are retards. Its not like the P has to plant the prism right next to the ramp... he will surely not plant it next to a spore. So as long as he can plant the prism anywhere inside your base you are screwed if you dont have your army in your main base. If anyone even thinks this creates good gameplay they need to check their mental health. Forcefield has been a horrible game mechanic from day 1. And this is just another way to really abuse it. If Nydus got the ability to block warp inns in a base and create special creep that blocked a ramp it would be seen as horrible imblanaced. Warp prism+ sentry is the same thing. The only problem is that I love the warp prism mechanic. But its the force field mechanic that is flawed. | ||
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hysterial
United States2044 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:49 ThaZenith wrote: Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games. What are you talking about, how exactly does MC amass a huge army, have phoenix/void rays AND HAVE the threat of a 4 sentry drop in the main. Jesus i'm hardly an anti-fan, I'm a true fan. People who are blind to Idra's mistakes are the true anti-fans. I want to see him do well, but I have the ability to say, guess what, Idra you didn't react properly,. Am I sad he lost? Yes. Do I see why he lost? Yes. The whole purpose behind this build is to NOT make an army and warp it all in at the same time. If you see a massive 1a deathball moving down, you can safely not have to worry about a major sentry drop, and set your army up. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:53 Ravnemesteren wrote: The whole idea is idiotic anyways. Drops should be something you should be able to react to. "DAMN, my army wasnt in my main base.... I lost... Guess I will never move out again". And people talking about putting spores next to the ramp are retards. Its not like the P has to plant the prism right next to the ramp... he will surely not plant it next to a spore. So as long as he can plant the prism anywhere inside your base you are screwed if you dont have your army in your main base. If anyone even thinks this creates good gameplay they need to check their mental health. Forcefield has been a horrible game mechanic from day 1. And this is just another way to really abuse it. If Nydus got the ability to block warp inns in a base and create special creep that blocked a ramp it would be seen as horrible imblanaced. Warp prism+ sentry is the same thing. The only problem is that I love the warp prism mechanic. But its the force field mechanic that is flawed. Funny, I'll bet you anything this build will no longer work in pro level games in a couple weeks. Who exactly are you to say "this is what drops are supposed to do"? In PvT you have to keep stalkers near the edge of your base or two medivacs can come in, snipe your nexus, and a ton of your tech.I'm a retard for saying put the spore near the ramp? No, that forces the warp prism to move elsewhere so that you have more time to react the sentries moving toward your ramp. It is your fault if you have the reaction speed of a corpse. No, you do not need more than a few roaches to stop 4 sentries. Believe it or not, someone with a 10-3 record against IdrA winning 2 more games doesn't scream of imbalance. IdrA saw the robo, saw the stargate opener, I think he may have been safe to leave 3 of his 20 or so roaches in his base because you're not exactly going to get caught by surprise by a 7 gate. | ||
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MrDudeMan
Canada973 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:49 Heavenly wrote: That's why you prevent the drop on your ramp in the first place? Blue flame hellions even in their nerfed state getting into your mineral line is pretty bad too, that's why you have to be prepared or it. Zergs are just more lenient against protoss atm because it's not something on their minds like it is in ZvT. Come on, are you honestly going to say there is no way to prevent four extremely fragile, low dps sentries near your ramp? How do you feel about mutas in ZvP, since that has to be far more frustrating to deal with? So because you are unable to prevent this drop that you don't know is coming, which comes at virtually no risk to the protoss since you can't kill warp prisms that early, you deserve to automatically lose the game? The difference with blue flame hellions is that you can at least micro against them, and that they got nerfed pretty badly. I'm willing to bet that you would still see elevator drops if the nerf didn't exist. And I'd probably rank dealing with mutas in PvZ at the same rank as dealing with multiple drops in ZvT if you don't have mutas/infestors. This warp prism sentry thing is more like the 1/1/1 or 5rax reaper, where it just looks dirty as hell winning with it (which is why everyone complained when puma/morrow won). | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:00 MrDudeMan wrote: So because you are unable to prevent this drop that you don't know is coming, which comes at virtually no risk to the protoss since you can't kill warp prisms that early, you deserve to automatically lose the game? The difference with blue flame hellions is that you can at least micro against them, and that they got nerfed pretty badly. I'm willing to bet that you would still see elevator drops if the nerf didn't exist. And I'd probably rank dealing with mutas in PvZ at the same rank as dealing with multiple drops in ZvT if you don't have mutas/infestors. This warp prism sentry thing is more like the 1/1/1 or 5rax reaper, where it just looks dirty as hell winning with it (which is why everyone complained when puma/morrow won). Three roaches at your ramp. Enough said. People stopped using blue flame hellion/marine drop long before the nerf because it was countered by, gasp, building an extra queen. No, mutas are not the same as drops without mutas/infestors, that's not even close to the same thing and there is a very specific timing window where that can even work before mutas or infestors in the first place. Mutas are more like a hellion reactor opener that prevents getting a third base, except they never stop being useful and are almost guaranteed damage. I'm not saying mutas in ZvP are imba at all, it's just a metagame thing far harder to deal with than a sentry drop. | ||
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Open_
New Zealand73 Posts
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Hnnngg
United States1101 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:02 Open_ wrote: Guys, this may seem wacky, but I think using a nydus work would be pretty good counter to this. Every time I see it happen, I think damn, a nydus coulda solved this problem. Nydus worms can also be set up for good flanks and counter attacks also if the sentry drop isn't used. Problem is that nydus isn't good for much else and there is hardly an indication for this beyond the WP moving out on the field. So either blind nydus or die, or you make "3" roaches and spore by your ramp to defend against this 1 strategy and never ever do it for anything else. Sounds like a good plan. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:06 Hnnngg wrote: Problem is that nydus isn't good for much else and there is hardly an indication for this beyond the WP moving out on the field. So either blind nydus or die, or you make "3" roaches and spore by your ramp to defend against this 1 strategy and never ever do it for anything else. Sounds like a good plan. Lmao what are you even trying to say? So it's unreasonable to have 3 roaches at that point in time even though IdrA had 15-20? The spore crawlers already existed for the air opener and was slightly out of place. IdrA misplaced his units, that is why he lost. Or are you trying to claim 3 roaches can't beat 4 sentries? Because they can. | ||
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MrDudeMan
Canada973 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:01 Heavenly wrote: Three roaches at your ramp. Enough said. People stopped using blue flame hellion/marine drop long before the nerf because it was countered by, gasp, building an extra queen. No, mutas are not the same as drops without mutas/infestors, that's not even close to the same thing and there is a very specific timing window where that can even work before mutas or infestors in the first place. Mutas are more like a hellion reactor opener that prevents getting a third base, except they never stop being useful and are almost guaranteed damage. I'm not saying mutas in ZvP are imba at all, it's just a metagame thing far harder to deal with than a sentry drop. three roaches against 2 voids + 3-4 pheonix? Even if you had 5 roaches up there anticipating this drop, the pheonix could just lift them while an zealots or stalkers are being warped in. Also I meant more in terms of the harassment potential mutas have that allows them to get in, deal damage and get out and still be useful. And I would say they're pretty close to imbalanced in PvZ. | ||
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Open_
New Zealand73 Posts
On November 20 2011 14:06 Hnnngg wrote: Problem is that nydus isn't good for much else and there is hardly an indication for this beyond the WP moving out on the field. So either blind nydus or die, or you make "3" roaches and spore by your ramp to defend against this 1 strategy and never ever do it for anything else. Sounds like a good plan. People say that its not good for much else, but in reality, it is. People just don't use it enough yet. They will though. | ||
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