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Personal attacks in this thread will draw a temp ban. |
On November 20 2011 14:08 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:06 Hnnngg wrote:On November 20 2011 14:02 Open_ wrote:
Guys, this may seem wacky, but I think using a nydus work would be pretty good counter to this. Every time I see it happen, I think damn, a nydus coulda solved this problem. Nydus worms can also be set up for good flanks and counter attacks also if the sentry drop isn't used. Problem is that nydus isn't good for much else and there is hardly an indication for this beyond the WP moving out on the field. So either blind nydus or die, or you make "3" roaches and spore by your ramp to defend against this 1 strategy and never ever do it for anything else.Sounds like a good plan. Lmao what are you even trying to say? So it's unreasonable to have 3 roaches at that point in time even though IdrA had 15-20? The spore crawlers already existed for the air opener and was slightly out of place. IdrA misplaced his units, that is why he lost. Or are you trying to claim 3 roaches can't beat 4 sentries? Because they can.
It's not good for anything else.
An extra queen is good no matter what.
It's not good gameplay. It's terrible shallow strategy.
On November 20 2011 14:10 Open_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:06 Hnnngg wrote:On November 20 2011 14:02 Open_ wrote:
Guys, this may seem wacky, but I think using a nydus work would be pretty good counter to this. Every time I see it happen, I think damn, a nydus coulda solved this problem. Nydus worms can also be set up for good flanks and counter attacks also if the sentry drop isn't used. Problem is that nydus isn't good for much else and there is hardly an indication for this beyond the WP moving out on the field. So either blind nydus or die, or you make "3" roaches and spore by your ramp to defend against this 1 strategy and never ever do it for anything else. Sounds like a good plan. People say that its not good for much else, but in reality, it is. People just don't use it enough yet. They will though.
Go on. Tell us what else it's good for. And don't you dare say DT's, you can actually scout DT's and prepare. You can absolutely assume there will be DT's with a Dark Shrine, you can't do it for the Robo + WP.
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On November 20 2011 14:12 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:08 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 14:06 Hnnngg wrote:On November 20 2011 14:02 Open_ wrote:
Guys, this may seem wacky, but I think using a nydus work would be pretty good counter to this. Every time I see it happen, I think damn, a nydus coulda solved this problem. Nydus worms can also be set up for good flanks and counter attacks also if the sentry drop isn't used. Problem is that nydus isn't good for much else and there is hardly an indication for this beyond the WP moving out on the field. So either blind nydus or die, or you make "3" roaches and spore by your ramp to defend against this 1 strategy and never ever do it for anything else.Sounds like a good plan. Lmao what are you even trying to say? So it's unreasonable to have 3 roaches at that point in time even though IdrA had 15-20? The spore crawlers already existed for the air opener and was slightly out of place. IdrA misplaced his units, that is why he lost. Or are you trying to claim 3 roaches can't beat 4 sentries? Because they can. It's not good for anything else. An extra queen is good no matter what. It's not good gameplay. It's terrible shallow strategy.
The sporecrawler already existed a couple inches above the ramp and he already had the roaches? Well I'm done arguing, IdrA is an excellent player and he got caught off guard by a strategy and I'm sure he'll review the replays and not lose the same way again. It's just a bit silly everyone calling it imba over a couple games.
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On November 20 2011 14:12 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:12 Hnnngg wrote:On November 20 2011 14:08 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 14:06 Hnnngg wrote:On November 20 2011 14:02 Open_ wrote:
Guys, this may seem wacky, but I think using a nydus work would be pretty good counter to this. Every time I see it happen, I think damn, a nydus coulda solved this problem. Nydus worms can also be set up for good flanks and counter attacks also if the sentry drop isn't used. Problem is that nydus isn't good for much else and there is hardly an indication for this beyond the WP moving out on the field. So either blind nydus or die, or you make "3" roaches and spore by your ramp to defend against this 1 strategy and never ever do it for anything else.Sounds like a good plan. Lmao what are you even trying to say? So it's unreasonable to have 3 roaches at that point in time even though IdrA had 15-20? The spore crawlers already existed for the air opener and was slightly out of place. IdrA misplaced his units, that is why he lost. Or are you trying to claim 3 roaches can't beat 4 sentries? Because they can. It's not good for anything else. An extra queen is good no matter what. It's not good gameplay. It's terrible shallow strategy. The sporecrawler already existed a couple inches above the ramp and he already had the roaches?
But why else would you leave roaches up there? That's the only reason. And he scouts the Stargate and makes spores, you can't see a Robo and say, "Well obviously this is going to be a WP, I'm going to move my spore to a spot that would be good against WP and nothing else".
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On November 20 2011 13:49 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:45 MrDudeMan wrote:On November 20 2011 13:41 Heavenly wrote:
IdrA should have placed his spore closer to the ramp, and left 3-4 roaches in the main. Four sentries are not very good versus four roaches and he has enough forewarning of any attack incoming to bring those roaches down. Not imba. IdrA was caught off guard. This is the same nonsense people complained over about blue flame hellion marine elevators, then people realized they can just make another queen, and now people are proposing completely gamebreaking 'solutions' because it won a game Its not really the drop that people are complaining about. Its the fact that ff's are too strong vs Z in early game. You can defend against the drop easily if you know its coming, but there's literally nothing you can do about a ff on your ramp. That's why you prevent the drop on your ramp in the first place? Blue flame hellions even in their nerfed state getting into your mineral line is pretty bad too, that's why you have to be prepared or it. Zergs are just more lenient against protoss atm because it's not something on their minds like it is in ZvT. Come on, are you honestly going to say there is no way to prevent four extremely fragile, low dps sentries near your ramp? How do you feel about mutas in ZvP, since that has to be far more frustrating to deal with? Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:49 ThaZenith wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:13 Grackodile wrote:On November 20 2011 13:09 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:06 Khazroul wrote:
I think the saddest part of all i that it isnt all-in.. he can easily escape with the prism if idra had spines over his ramp and transition
harrass later with prism etc..
even if he loses the sentries to workers or w.e or reinforcements at the exact right time.. as long as he doesnt warp in too much to lose it, he only lost a bit, while the zerg can instantly lose right there Pretty sure if Idra has half his army in the main and half in his natural, he can crush that and be WAAAY ahead since taking a third on dual site is near impossible. The whole strat has a very simple counter, however the main thing is knowing its coming and reacting properly, OR YOU LOSE. That is just bad design, its almost coinflippy, with a weighted coin. Pretty sure if you are playing as zerg with half of your army in your main you are just as much at risk to dropping the sentries below the ramp and losing your natural so that is really a dumb comment. You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games.  If you need half your army up a ramp to be able to beat four sentries, you should probably lay off the drones for three larva.
Heavenly why mutas take far more skill to control then to just FF the ramp every 15 secs. Play zerg and see how it goes otherwise gtfo and stfu.
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On November 20 2011 14:20 TheSasquatch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 13:49 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 MrDudeMan wrote:On November 20 2011 13:41 Heavenly wrote:
IdrA should have placed his spore closer to the ramp, and left 3-4 roaches in the main. Four sentries are not very good versus four roaches and he has enough forewarning of any attack incoming to bring those roaches down. Not imba. IdrA was caught off guard. This is the same nonsense people complained over about blue flame hellion marine elevators, then people realized they can just make another queen, and now people are proposing completely gamebreaking 'solutions' because it won a game Its not really the drop that people are complaining about. Its the fact that ff's are too strong vs Z in early game. You can defend against the drop easily if you know its coming, but there's literally nothing you can do about a ff on your ramp. That's why you prevent the drop on your ramp in the first place? Blue flame hellions even in their nerfed state getting into your mineral line is pretty bad too, that's why you have to be prepared or it. Zergs are just more lenient against protoss atm because it's not something on their minds like it is in ZvT. Come on, are you honestly going to say there is no way to prevent four extremely fragile, low dps sentries near your ramp? How do you feel about mutas in ZvP, since that has to be far more frustrating to deal with? On November 20 2011 13:49 ThaZenith wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:13 Grackodile wrote:On November 20 2011 13:09 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:06 Khazroul wrote:
I think the saddest part of all i that it isnt all-in.. he can easily escape with the prism if idra had spines over his ramp and transition
harrass later with prism etc..
even if he loses the sentries to workers or w.e or reinforcements at the exact right time.. as long as he doesnt warp in too much to lose it, he only lost a bit, while the zerg can instantly lose right there Pretty sure if Idra has half his army in the main and half in his natural, he can crush that and be WAAAY ahead since taking a third on dual site is near impossible. The whole strat has a very simple counter, however the main thing is knowing its coming and reacting properly, OR YOU LOSE. That is just bad design, its almost coinflippy, with a weighted coin. Pretty sure if you are playing as zerg with half of your army in your main you are just as much at risk to dropping the sentries below the ramp and losing your natural so that is really a dumb comment. You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games. If you need half your army up a ramp to be able to beat four sentries, you should probably lay off the drones for three larva. Heavenly why mutas take far more skill to control then to just FF the ramp every 15 secs. Play zerg and see how it goes otherwise gtfo and stfu.
What does that have to do with anything lmao I said? Manners brah, manners. I've seen many games of mass roach a-move winning, how much skill does that take? Not everything in this game requires equal skill to execute. And I would expect top level zergs to have good muta control in the first place from their vT.
I said I'm done, but come on, lay off the personal insults and whining.
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if you are here to teach idra how to play, gtfo.
that guy has put in 20x times more thought and experience than you.
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On November 20 2011 14:23 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:20 TheSasquatch wrote:On November 20 2011 13:49 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 MrDudeMan wrote:On November 20 2011 13:41 Heavenly wrote:
IdrA should have placed his spore closer to the ramp, and left 3-4 roaches in the main. Four sentries are not very good versus four roaches and he has enough forewarning of any attack incoming to bring those roaches down. Not imba. IdrA was caught off guard. This is the same nonsense people complained over about blue flame hellion marine elevators, then people realized they can just make another queen, and now people are proposing completely gamebreaking 'solutions' because it won a game Its not really the drop that people are complaining about. Its the fact that ff's are too strong vs Z in early game. You can defend against the drop easily if you know its coming, but there's literally nothing you can do about a ff on your ramp. That's why you prevent the drop on your ramp in the first place? Blue flame hellions even in their nerfed state getting into your mineral line is pretty bad too, that's why you have to be prepared or it. Zergs are just more lenient against protoss atm because it's not something on their minds like it is in ZvT. Come on, are you honestly going to say there is no way to prevent four extremely fragile, low dps sentries near your ramp? How do you feel about mutas in ZvP, since that has to be far more frustrating to deal with? On November 20 2011 13:49 ThaZenith wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:13 Grackodile wrote:On November 20 2011 13:09 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:06 Khazroul wrote:
I think the saddest part of all i that it isnt all-in.. he can easily escape with the prism if idra had spines over his ramp and transition
harrass later with prism etc..
even if he loses the sentries to workers or w.e or reinforcements at the exact right time.. as long as he doesnt warp in too much to lose it, he only lost a bit, while the zerg can instantly lose right there Pretty sure if Idra has half his army in the main and half in his natural, he can crush that and be WAAAY ahead since taking a third on dual site is near impossible. The whole strat has a very simple counter, however the main thing is knowing its coming and reacting properly, OR YOU LOSE. That is just bad design, its almost coinflippy, with a weighted coin. Pretty sure if you are playing as zerg with half of your army in your main you are just as much at risk to dropping the sentries below the ramp and losing your natural so that is really a dumb comment. You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games. If you need half your army up a ramp to be able to beat four sentries, you should probably lay off the drones for three larva. Heavenly why mutas take far more skill to control then to just FF the ramp every 15 secs. Play zerg and see how it goes otherwise gtfo and stfu. What does that have to do with anything lmao I said? Manners brah, manners. I've seen many games of mass roach a-move winning, how much skill does that take? Not everything in this game requires equal skill to execute. And I would expect top level zergs to have good muta control in the first place from their vT. I said I'm done, but come on, lay off the personal insults and whining.
I'd like to see a game where both players are on even footing and one just mass roaches and A-moves and wins .
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And I'm sure he is very aware of what he did wrong with his positioning.
On November 20 2011 14:25 kurrysauce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:23 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 14:20 TheSasquatch wrote:On November 20 2011 13:49 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 MrDudeMan wrote:On November 20 2011 13:41 Heavenly wrote:
IdrA should have placed his spore closer to the ramp, and left 3-4 roaches in the main. Four sentries are not very good versus four roaches and he has enough forewarning of any attack incoming to bring those roaches down. Not imba. IdrA was caught off guard. This is the same nonsense people complained over about blue flame hellion marine elevators, then people realized they can just make another queen, and now people are proposing completely gamebreaking 'solutions' because it won a game Its not really the drop that people are complaining about. Its the fact that ff's are too strong vs Z in early game. You can defend against the drop easily if you know its coming, but there's literally nothing you can do about a ff on your ramp. That's why you prevent the drop on your ramp in the first place? Blue flame hellions even in their nerfed state getting into your mineral line is pretty bad too, that's why you have to be prepared or it. Zergs are just more lenient against protoss atm because it's not something on their minds like it is in ZvT. Come on, are you honestly going to say there is no way to prevent four extremely fragile, low dps sentries near your ramp? How do you feel about mutas in ZvP, since that has to be far more frustrating to deal with? On November 20 2011 13:49 ThaZenith wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:13 Grackodile wrote:On November 20 2011 13:09 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:06 Khazroul wrote:
I think the saddest part of all i that it isnt all-in.. he can easily escape with the prism if idra had spines over his ramp and transition
harrass later with prism etc..
even if he loses the sentries to workers or w.e or reinforcements at the exact right time.. as long as he doesnt warp in too much to lose it, he only lost a bit, while the zerg can instantly lose right there Pretty sure if Idra has half his army in the main and half in his natural, he can crush that and be WAAAY ahead since taking a third on dual site is near impossible. The whole strat has a very simple counter, however the main thing is knowing its coming and reacting properly, OR YOU LOSE. That is just bad design, its almost coinflippy, with a weighted coin. Pretty sure if you are playing as zerg with half of your army in your main you are just as much at risk to dropping the sentries below the ramp and losing your natural so that is really a dumb comment. You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games. If you need half your army up a ramp to be able to beat four sentries, you should probably lay off the drones for three larva. Heavenly why mutas take far more skill to control then to just FF the ramp every 15 secs. Play zerg and see how it goes otherwise gtfo and stfu. What does that have to do with anything lmao I said? Manners brah, manners. I've seen many games of mass roach a-move winning, how much skill does that take? Not everything in this game requires equal skill to execute. And I would expect top level zergs to have good muta control in the first place from their vT. I said I'm done, but come on, lay off the personal insults and whining. I'd like to see a game where both players are on even footing and one just mass roaches and A-moves and wins .
A lot of them? Are you seriously going to claim you don't see that? Slayers_Min v. Genius on Terminus Re is a shining example. lmao okay no one respond to me anymore please, I don't have enough willpower to stop arguing. I do not think IdrA will lose to this again and if he does it will be because of an obvious mistake he makes. If there is any significant period of time where this seems nearly as stupid as 1-1-1 consider me a retard but I don't see it happening. Remember ZvP roach/ling all-in, when every zerg lost to 2rax especially with scvs pulled, marine/hellion elevator (stopped happening long before the nerf) etc.
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does ANYONE know of a replay that shows how to defend against the warp prism + 4 sentries???
i have certainly never seen one.
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On November 20 2011 14:26 ThePlayer33 wrote:
does ANYONE know of a replay that shows how to defend against the warp prism + 4 sentries???
i have certainly never seen one.
Just spreading your units would do.
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On November 20 2011 14:26 ThePlayer33 wrote:
does ANYONE know of a replay that shows how to defend against the warp prism + 4 sentries???
i have certainly never seen one.
I don't think the problem is defending against it, I have a feeling hydras will do nicely if you spread creep enough and are able to have a decent shut down on the air harass (gl when your third is far off) and take out the phoenixes and catch the warp prism relatively early, and cut off the rest of the army, ok now this is just getting ridiculous (good luck pulling all this off perfectly vs a top protoss). all that being said, not only is it impossible to scout, its also a coinflip, if you do go fast hydras for defense like ret/stephano have been doing you leave yourself unable to attack (nestea tried to with nydus but failed) and considering they have robo up already colossi are just a few clicks away. IMO this strat is abusive and requires balance change.
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On November 20 2011 14:25 Heavenly wrote:And I'm sure he is very aware of what he did wrong with his positioning. Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 14:25 kurrysauce wrote:On November 20 2011 14:23 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 14:20 TheSasquatch wrote:On November 20 2011 13:49 Heavenly wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 MrDudeMan wrote:On November 20 2011 13:41 Heavenly wrote:
IdrA should have placed his spore closer to the ramp, and left 3-4 roaches in the main. Four sentries are not very good versus four roaches and he has enough forewarning of any attack incoming to bring those roaches down. Not imba. IdrA was caught off guard. This is the same nonsense people complained over about blue flame hellion marine elevators, then people realized they can just make another queen, and now people are proposing completely gamebreaking 'solutions' because it won a game Its not really the drop that people are complaining about. Its the fact that ff's are too strong vs Z in early game. You can defend against the drop easily if you know its coming, but there's literally nothing you can do about a ff on your ramp. That's why you prevent the drop on your ramp in the first place? Blue flame hellions even in their nerfed state getting into your mineral line is pretty bad too, that's why you have to be prepared or it. Zergs are just more lenient against protoss atm because it's not something on their minds like it is in ZvT. Come on, are you honestly going to say there is no way to prevent four extremely fragile, low dps sentries near your ramp? How do you feel about mutas in ZvP, since that has to be far more frustrating to deal with? On November 20 2011 13:49 ThaZenith wrote:On November 20 2011 13:45 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:13 Grackodile wrote:On November 20 2011 13:09 hysterial wrote:On November 20 2011 13:06 Khazroul wrote:
I think the saddest part of all i that it isnt all-in.. he can easily escape with the prism if idra had spines over his ramp and transition
harrass later with prism etc..
even if he loses the sentries to workers or w.e or reinforcements at the exact right time.. as long as he doesnt warp in too much to lose it, he only lost a bit, while the zerg can instantly lose right there Pretty sure if Idra has half his army in the main and half in his natural, he can crush that and be WAAAY ahead since taking a third on dual site is near impossible. The whole strat has a very simple counter, however the main thing is knowing its coming and reacting properly, OR YOU LOSE. That is just bad design, its almost coinflippy, with a weighted coin. Pretty sure if you are playing as zerg with half of your army in your main you are just as much at risk to dropping the sentries below the ramp and losing your natural so that is really a dumb comment. You have half your army on the low ground... You wont lose the natural lol.. Lol, gtfo if you have no idea how the game is played. Full protoss army vs half a zerg army? Omg i wonder who wins. IdrA's fanclub getting flooded by antifans atm, I'll come back tomorrow for the good games. If you need half your army up a ramp to be able to beat four sentries, you should probably lay off the drones for three larva. Heavenly why mutas take far more skill to control then to just FF the ramp every 15 secs. Play zerg and see how it goes otherwise gtfo and stfu. What does that have to do with anything lmao I said? Manners brah, manners. I've seen many games of mass roach a-move winning, how much skill does that take? Not everything in this game requires equal skill to execute. And I would expect top level zergs to have good muta control in the first place from their vT. I said I'm done, but come on, lay off the personal insults and whining. I'd like to see a game where both players are on even footing and one just mass roaches and A-moves and wins . A lot of them? Are you seriously going to claim you don't see that? Slayers_Min v. Genius on Terminus Re is a shining example. lmao okay no one respond to me anymore please, I don't have enough willpower to stop arguing. I do not think IdrA will lose to this again and if he does it will be because of an obvious mistake he makes. If there is any significant period of time where this seems nearly as stupid as 1-1-1 consider me a retard but I don't see it happening. Remember ZvP roach/ling all-in, when every zerg lost to 2rax especially with scvs pulled, marine/hellion elevator (stopped happening long before the nerf) etc.
more like you dont have enough understanding of the game to argue.
FF is OP because its unbeatable. There is simply nothing you can do when you get in that situation. Makes SC2 on the same level of design intelligence as those RTS that feature super abilities. Not like it's hard to fix either, there are plenty of other approaches to take too. The least painful being good map making. But that's clearly too much to ask from Blizzard.
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Since when do abusive strats require balance change? 2 rax and double reactor hellions don't require balance change either.
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On November 20 2011 14:49 epicdemic wrote:
Since when do abusive strats require balance change? 2 rax and double reactor hellions don't require balance change either.
Well, actually hellions did get a balance change. Also, its not that strat people are complaining about, its the ffs at the ramp.
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The warpprism isn't even impossible to scout like people claim. If Idra had better creep spread he would have seen it coming way earlier.
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heavenly please stop acting like you understand, in fact you dont.
you have no idea that hero did this exact thing in game 2 in dreamhack invitational.
and you obviously dont even watch or play enough to know enough.
and no idra cant just watch the replay a few times and know how to counter it. he need a lot of time and testing with another toss after the tourney. and you cant expect idra to invent that many strategies for everyone else to copy.
and this is a place to support idra not to argue with people complaining about balance.
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Sound like IdrA lost to Minigun, which sucks. I didn't see, but when is his next match? Tomorrow?
Also, The FF on ramp is easy to stop if you know it's coming, like DTs. In this case, don't have all your army in one place. That's just imo. <3
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On November 20 2011 14:49 epicdemic wrote:
Since when do abusive strats require balance change? 2 rax and double reactor hellions don't require balance change either.
Maybe they don't require balance changes because both those strats have been nerfed. WP on the other hand has only received a buff and a big one at that
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i wish nydus (nydii lol) wren't so expensive. It be awesome to have then for transportation between your bases as soon as lair is done, Still think he might have gg'ed too early, but I'd just wanted to see idra wreck with mutas :\
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its just stupid that strategies that require no skill can just beat anyone.
sigh...
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EPT
