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James Cameron's AVATAR series - Page 59

Forum Index > Media & Entertainment
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
January 06 2010 01:06 GMT
#1161
On January 06 2010 08:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
Please don't threaten people with bans

I'LL BAN YOU TOO HOT_BID, JUST YOU WATCH!!!
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Deleted User 31996
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
843 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-07 01:56:37
January 07 2010 01:53 GMT
#1162
On January 05 2010 01:47 StorkHwaiting wrote:

lol James Cameron very likely saw Princess Mononoke. It's been out in US theatres and had a lot of critical acclaim and it's the kind of foreign film that most film makers who work in CGI/animation (like Cameron does) tend to check out solely to keep up with what others in the industry are doing.

Correct

On January 05 2010 01:47 StorkHwaiting wrote:
And personally, it was more like Last Samurai than it was like Princess Mononke.

Wrong - It is rather an intricate mix of the two. Perhaps if you understood a little Japanese-American history then, more contextual light may be shed on The Last Samurai for you. America didn't just rock up to Japan to 'Westernize it then go away', Japan as a physical geographic location was perfect for the US as fueling station for their ever growing fleet. Woopah they still wanted to use the land for their own purposes.

The connection portrayed with the Na'Vi and their land is by far stronger and more real than anything I have witnessed -
See
for example of an Olive tree being cut down by a settler in Palestine with the owner going crazy. The scenes showing the Na'vi people mourning and lamenting at the loss and destruction of their forest gave a very palpable and sympathetic sense of the loss and desctruction- Well for me anyway.
No I'm not saying Cameron is a sympathizer of Palestinians nor any other indigenous/aboriginal population for that matter, but the portrayal of the reality of it all, that is, of how strong and true the connection a native people have with their land and its trees is there, and it certainly is no accident either.

So strong that the neuron-like connections with the land, although physically real and scientifically supposed true, I believe are to symbolise how true the connection is that a native peoples claim to have with their land and perhaps hint at it being so true, that there is almost a scientific-magical reality to it. The same goes for any single other group of indigenous people.

There are differences of course, that goes not without saying, Pandora had some special mineral, the land for people X was wanted as a fueling station and was geographically convenient, stolen and settled on by outsiders, but there are countries around the world by which their natural resources were exploited by a colonizing nation, you'd be blind to not see that.


On January 05 2010 01:47 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Also, in both Mononoke and Last Samurai the end is bittersweet. In both, the animals/natives don't win. They lose but make a lasting impression on their conquerors. Only Avatar with its saccharine plot has the natives "win." Probably to set up a lame sequel.

Overall, it's just your archetypal "going native" story. A protagonist haunted by his life, seeking a change/cure, stumbles upon a native culture that is at first hostile, then over time opens up to him, as he persistently and somewhat clumsily tries to connect with them on a human/soulful level. Then his former life comes back to haunt him with gifts in hand, and he's forced to make the moral choice between siding with "his own kind" or forging a new loyalty with the natives who helped cure him. Inevitably, he chooses to side with the new friends because that's what any brave/unconventional protagonist does and it's enlightened because the natural reaction is to side with your own kind. Then they fight, blah blah, the protagonist knows the ins and outs of the other side because he used to be one of them, shows the natives what to do, and then they ride to victory or put up such a valiant struggle that everyone's touched by their bravery. The End. Bank $1 billion.


This is where I agree with you more or less. However, I still think you are picking, choosing, and neglecting sections of this film with comparisons to other films to your own liking. As I have just (hopefully?) shown in this post here. Mononoke addressed slightly more complex questions, showing the dire situation that the main population were in and how the leader of that population was helping prostitutes and slaves from other towns which gave her a human appeal where-as Parker said something along the lines of "my stockholders care more about the quarterly review than a bunch of native people dying" here - attempting to show one aspect of the cruel reality of materialist capitalism - This isn't always the case, but very very real indeed. I personally would have loved the film 10 times more had there been no deus ex machina happy ending sorta crap but oh well.

Anyway in other news-
I am optimistic for more movies to come using 3D for actual emphatic techniques - as opposed to Avatar's 'showoffy' techniques which is fine since its perhaps one of the first films ever used to employ 3D? (Despite it having been invented about a century ago)



endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
January 07 2010 07:05 GMT
#1163
[image loading]


I knew it was almost the same story as Pocahontas, i didnt expected to be THAT close rofl.
ॐ
LunarDestiny
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States4177 Posts
January 07 2010 07:15 GMT
#1164
On January 07 2010 16:05 endy wrote:
[image loading]


I knew it was almost the same story as Pocahontas, i didnt expected to be THAT close rofl.


If it was so similar to Pocahontas, why didn't they remake Pocahontas with the 3D graphics?
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10945 Posts
January 07 2010 09:46 GMT
#1165
probably because Pocahontas is gay and american natives don't sell as good as blue cat humanoids.
OhThatDang
Profile Joined August 2004
United States4685 Posts
January 07 2010 10:02 GMT
#1166
U kknnooww thebig catch of avatar was to "change the way movies are made" a lot of you guys are still going over the story. Who cares, goood stories are retold often as long as it was executed brilliantly what's the fuss
troi oi thang map nai!!!
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
January 07 2010 10:17 GMT
#1167
On January 07 2010 19:02 OhThatDang wrote:
U kknnooww thebig catch of avatar was to "change the way movies are made" a lot of you guys are still going over the story. Who cares, goood stories are retold often as long as it was executed brilliantly what's the fuss

Point is that it wasn't executed brilliantly, and so it doesn't deserve a nomination for Best Picture.
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
January 07 2010 10:47 GMT
#1168
Avatars story is bad, you can't take that away. It was the visuals that sent the audience to a zombie like state and blocked their eyes from seeing the plot a thousand miles away. (I posted this a few pages back)

If you want something more complex, go read a book.

Well Avatar has some chance on a better story if it goes to a Star Wars-like Saga or something..
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Cyrox
Profile Joined October 2007
Sweden147 Posts
January 07 2010 10:58 GMT
#1169
All I thought about was Pochahontas as mentioned above. And how cool the CGI was, and how not-cool the 3D was (except some scenes that worked out fine).

I will have to see it once more without the bullshit glasses ...

Except for being a Pochahontas ripoff the script was so much by-the-book it was hilarious, but it's all about money so whatever who am I to judge.

I would give it 6,5/10 on my personal scale.
GunSlinger
Profile Joined June 2006
614 Posts
January 07 2010 12:12 GMT
#1170
You guys should look up what a 'deus ex machina' is. All the posts I have read where you kids talk about how poorly the plot was constructed mention it, and yet obviously have no idea what it is or what it entails.

Sooo many people trying to sound smarter than they are. It's a movie, get over it. If Cameron's thinly veiled axe to grind makes you think about how we are raping our eco-systems, then good. If you liked the movie but thought the dialogue was weak, then good. If liked the movie but feel the need to complain and nit pick at every detail you have a gripe with then shut the fuck up because people are tired of hearing it.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 07 2010 12:22 GMT
#1171
On January 07 2010 21:12 GunSlinger wrote:
You guys should look up what a 'deus ex machina' is. All the posts I have read where you kids talk about how poorly the plot was constructed mention it, and yet obviously have no idea what it is or what it entails.

Sooo many people trying to sound smarter than they are. It's a movie, get over it. If Cameron's thinly veiled axe to grind makes you think about how we are raping our eco-systems, then good. If you liked the movie but thought the dialogue was weak, then good. If liked the movie but feel the need to complain and nit pick at every detail you have a gripe with then shut the fuck up because people are tired of hearing it.


Don't go on a forum if you have anti-social rage please. It makes you look like you have hormonal issues.
GunSlinger
Profile Joined June 2006
614 Posts
January 07 2010 12:33 GMT
#1172
Don't go on forums if you are a condescending prick who likes to make sure that every person he is even remotely acquainted with absolutely knows his/her opinions even if they don't want to know his/her opinions. It makes you look like you have to much time on your hands and too few friends.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 07 2010 12:39 GMT
#1173
On January 07 2010 21:33 GunSlinger wrote:
Don't go on forums if you are a condescending prick who likes to make sure that every person he is even remotely acquainted with absolutely knows his/her opinions even if they don't want to know his/her opinions. It makes you look like you have to much time on your hands and too few friends.


You ever read the title of the thread? Or did you just skim through a few posts, get pissed off because you like the movie, and decide that cursing at people without providing a single new thing to the discussion was a good thing to do?

This is a thread called Avatar: Overhyped?? HMMMM. I wonder what people should be discussing there. Maybe if the thread was called Avatar: Positive Comments Only, I could understand where you're coming from, but right now, you just look angry for no good reason.
Conquest101
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1395 Posts
January 07 2010 12:48 GMT
#1174
[image loading]

Poll: Should thread be changed to Avatar: Positive Comments Only
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Change it to OMG SHUT UP ABOUT AVATAR

That done. I really liked Avatar, but I'm good at shutting my brain off when necessary.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 07 2010 12:50 GMT
#1175
On January 07 2010 10:53 liosama wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2010 01:47 StorkHwaiting wrote:

lol James Cameron very likely saw Princess Mononoke. It's been out in US theatres and had a lot of critical acclaim and it's the kind of foreign film that most film makers who work in CGI/animation (like Cameron does) tend to check out solely to keep up with what others in the industry are doing.

Correct

Show nested quote +
On January 05 2010 01:47 StorkHwaiting wrote:
And personally, it was more like Last Samurai than it was like Princess Mononke.

Wrong - It is rather an intricate mix of the two. Perhaps if you understood a little Japanese-American history then, more contextual light may be shed on The Last Samurai for you. America didn't just rock up to Japan to 'Westernize it then go away', Japan as a physical geographic location was perfect for the US as fueling station for their ever growing fleet. Woopah they still wanted to use the land for their own purposes.

The connection portrayed with the Na'Vi and their land is by far stronger and more real than anything I have witnessed -
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcpYuPxjJHw#t=0m23 for example of an Olive tree being cut down by a settler in Palestine with the owner going crazy. The scenes showing the Na'vi people mourning and lamenting at the loss and destruction of their forest gave a very palpable and sympathetic sense of the loss and desctruction- Well for me anyway.
No I'm not saying Cameron is a sympathizer of Palestinians nor any other indigenous/aboriginal population for that matter, but the portrayal of the reality of it all, that is, of how strong and true the connection a native people have with their land and its trees is there, and it certainly is no accident either.

So strong that the neuron-like connections with the land, although physically real and scientifically supposed true, I believe are to symbolise how true the connection is that a native peoples claim to have with their land and perhaps hint at it being so true, that there is almost a scientific-magical reality to it. The same goes for any single other group of indigenous people.

There are differences of course, that goes not without saying, Pandora had some special mineral, the land for people X was wanted as a fueling station and was geographically convenient, stolen and settled on by outsiders, but there are countries around the world by which their natural resources were exploited by a colonizing nation, you'd be blind to not see that.


Show nested quote +
On January 05 2010 01:47 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Also, in both Mononoke and Last Samurai the end is bittersweet. In both, the animals/natives don't win. They lose but make a lasting impression on their conquerors. Only Avatar with its saccharine plot has the natives "win." Probably to set up a lame sequel.

Overall, it's just your archetypal "going native" story. A protagonist haunted by his life, seeking a change/cure, stumbles upon a native culture that is at first hostile, then over time opens up to him, as he persistently and somewhat clumsily tries to connect with them on a human/soulful level. Then his former life comes back to haunt him with gifts in hand, and he's forced to make the moral choice between siding with "his own kind" or forging a new loyalty with the natives who helped cure him. Inevitably, he chooses to side with the new friends because that's what any brave/unconventional protagonist does and it's enlightened because the natural reaction is to side with your own kind. Then they fight, blah blah, the protagonist knows the ins and outs of the other side because he used to be one of them, shows the natives what to do, and then they ride to victory or put up such a valiant struggle that everyone's touched by their bravery. The End. Bank $1 billion.


This is where I agree with you more or less. However, I still think you are picking, choosing, and neglecting sections of this film with comparisons to other films to your own liking. As I have just (hopefully?) shown in this post here. Mononoke addressed slightly more complex questions, showing the dire situation that the main population were in and how the leader of that population was helping prostitutes and slaves from other towns which gave her a human appeal where-as Parker said something along the lines of "my stockholders care more about the quarterly review than a bunch of native people dying" here - attempting to show one aspect of the cruel reality of materialist capitalism - This isn't always the case, but very very real indeed. I personally would have loved the film 10 times more had there been no deus ex machina happy ending sorta crap but oh well.

Anyway in other news-
I am optimistic for more movies to come using 3D for actual emphatic techniques - as opposed to Avatar's 'showoffy' techniques which is fine since its perhaps one of the first films ever used to employ 3D? (Despite it having been invented about a century ago)





Well, see that's where I agree with you. Princess Mononoke is a vastly superior film to Avatar, both in terms of characterization/plot and artwork.

That's also why I think Avatar is more in line with The Last Samurai than PM. Look at the villains in The Last Samurai. Which is more similar to Avatar? Like you said, the female leader was a nuanced, multi-faceted character. The Prime Minister in Last Samurai was a money-grubbing industrialist, much more like the "villain" in Avatar.

I'm confused as to where America-Japan relations fit in though. Saying the Americans wanted to use Japan as a way-station, while true, reinforces my point that Last Samurai's villains had a very similar motivation as Avatar's.

Whereas Princess Mononoke was set in an imaginary world that had zero American-Japanese history in it, and the industrialists were a group of enterprising villagers who came up with their own gun manufacturing techniques etc while fighting off the forces of gov't and nature.
GunSlinger
Profile Joined June 2006
614 Posts
January 07 2010 12:59 GMT
#1176
On January 07 2010 21:39 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2010 21:33 GunSlinger wrote:
Don't go on forums if you are a condescending prick who likes to make sure that every person he is even remotely acquainted with absolutely knows his/her opinions even if they don't want to know his/her opinions. It makes you look like you have to much time on your hands and too few friends.


You ever read the title of the thread? Or did you just skim through a few posts, get pissed off because you like the movie, and decide that cursing at people without providing a single new thing to the discussion was a good thing to do?

This is a thread called Avatar: Overhyped?? HMMMM. I wonder what people should be discussing there. Maybe if the thread was called Avatar: Positive Comments Only, I could understand where you're coming from, but right now, you just look angry for no good reason.


At least 75% of your posts in this thread have had nothing to do with the title. You are ridiculous. You just keep talking about how bad and original the plot and characters were. Seriously, stop posting on TL about Avatar. Nobody cares anymore. At first people tried to actually discuss some stuff, which I admire since it doesn't happen all that often here. But it just breaks down.Kids like you don't consider what people are actually saying, it's all just something that you have to think up a clever rebuttal to. It's annoying. YOU are annoying.
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
January 07 2010 13:00 GMT
#1177
that was a goddamn good movie

and i didn't see it in 3d, i watched it on my laptop

eat it
why so 진지해?
Conquest101
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1395 Posts
January 07 2010 13:02 GMT
#1178
On January 07 2010 22:00 Rekrul wrote:
that was a goddamn good movie

and i didn't see it in 3d, i watched it on my laptop

eat it


Hahahahaha.
...
...
Hahahaha

Rekrul dismisses 58 pages of obsessive argumentation with 2 lines.
Good stuff.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 07 2010 13:09 GMT
#1179
On January 07 2010 21:59 GunSlinger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 07 2010 21:39 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 07 2010 21:33 GunSlinger wrote:
Don't go on forums if you are a condescending prick who likes to make sure that every person he is even remotely acquainted with absolutely knows his/her opinions even if they don't want to know his/her opinions. It makes you look like you have to much time on your hands and too few friends.


You ever read the title of the thread? Or did you just skim through a few posts, get pissed off because you like the movie, and decide that cursing at people without providing a single new thing to the discussion was a good thing to do?

This is a thread called Avatar: Overhyped?? HMMMM. I wonder what people should be discussing there. Maybe if the thread was called Avatar: Positive Comments Only, I could understand where you're coming from, but right now, you just look angry for no good reason.


At least 75% of your posts in this thread have had nothing to do with the title. You are ridiculous. You just keep talking about how bad and original the plot and characters were. Seriously, stop posting on TL about Avatar. Nobody cares anymore. At first people tried to actually discuss some stuff, which I admire since it doesn't happen all that often here. But it just breaks down.Kids like you don't consider what people are actually saying, it's all just something that you have to think up a clever rebuttal to. It's annoying. YOU are annoying.


Makes a lot of sense. Justifying hype should have nothing to do with the actual quality of the movie.

Nice to see you qualify your post with a nonsense statistic like 75% too. Sure makes it sound scientific. Here's another stat for you: 100% of your posts today have had nothing to do with the title.

What you have managed to do is curse and hurl insults solely because you think I should stop talking on a forum. And you're insults aren't even consistent. On one hand, I'm a condescending prick, on the other, you call me an annoying kid. While I've posted about 20x more than you in this thread, I've never once called anyone a kid or a prick even though I disagreed with them completely.
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
January 07 2010 13:48 GMT
#1180
Believe it or not I slept most of the second half of the movie.

Its simply too boring =/

And the 3d graphics were the biggest disapointment I ever had regarding movies.
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
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