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James Cameron's AVATAR series - Page 57

Forum Index > Media & Entertainment
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BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
January 05 2010 21:22 GMT
#1121
On January 06 2010 06:03 Draconizard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2010 05:57 sassme wrote:
StorkHwaiting, most of the things uve mentioned can be easily explained. I can't believe youre making a living off fantasy books and bringing these weak points to the table. Spinal repair, lizards not benefiting, helicopters - everything can be easily explained. You can hypothesize all you want what could be researched before what etc. but you need some solid argument, not this load of crap. Im not going to explain why you could be wrong in every particular case, youre the fantasy writer, you should be able to come up with an explanation if someone like me easily does.

and nice ownage hot_bid ahhaa


The point is that the viewers should not have to bend over backward to come up with the explanations themselves. Look; I too can easily explain any and all plot holes (in this movie or any other medium): a wizard did it. Does such an explanation satisfy you?

Here, someone criticizes Avatar for not spoon-feeding the audience.

On January 06 2010 00:37 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2010 10:33 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:31 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:26 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 09:16 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Fans should stop trying to defend the plot and stick to the movie's strengths: its visuals.

lol the plot was really good. I LIKED the plot. Its a great story and its message is much more important than any other movie ive seen this year. It was elegant in its simplicity. Now everybody repeat after me

Simple does not equal bad.




Here's a pro tip. Stop watching movies and go read a book.

lol thank you most gracius reading pro. Im reading Robert Jordan right now actually. At this very minute.


I understand how you feel. You wanted Avatar to be a psycholgical thriller or offer a perspective youd never thought off. Fair enough Avatar wasnt that kind of movie. But it also wasnt meant to be. It was meant to be a simple and timeless message that offers allot more to humanity than a movie like fight club ever could.



There is no problem with simple, there is a problem with how Cameron made it simple, do you not realize at any given point in the movie, he fucking spelled out every fucking thing that was going on just in case the viewer didn't understand the inherently simple dialogue and plot in the first place? There wasn't room for any thought because it was like Cameron fed you a meal and told you exactly how it was made and what was in it, etc.

Here, someone criticized Avatar for spoon-feeding too much.





SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU GUYS WANT?!

STOP THINKING SO GOD DAMN MUCH.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
January 05 2010 21:27 GMT
#1122
On January 06 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2010 06:03 Draconizard wrote:
On January 06 2010 05:57 sassme wrote:
StorkHwaiting, most of the things uve mentioned can be easily explained. I can't believe youre making a living off fantasy books and bringing these weak points to the table. Spinal repair, lizards not benefiting, helicopters - everything can be easily explained. You can hypothesize all you want what could be researched before what etc. but you need some solid argument, not this load of crap. Im not going to explain why you could be wrong in every particular case, youre the fantasy writer, you should be able to come up with an explanation if someone like me easily does.

and nice ownage hot_bid ahhaa


The point is that the viewers should not have to bend over backward to come up with the explanations themselves. Look; I too can easily explain any and all plot holes (in this movie or any other medium): a wizard did it. Does such an explanation satisfy you?

Here, someone criticizes Avatar for not spoon-feeding the audience.

Show nested quote +
On January 06 2010 00:37 Judicator wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:33 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:31 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:26 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 09:16 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Fans should stop trying to defend the plot and stick to the movie's strengths: its visuals.

lol the plot was really good. I LIKED the plot. Its a great story and its message is much more important than any other movie ive seen this year. It was elegant in its simplicity. Now everybody repeat after me

Simple does not equal bad.




Here's a pro tip. Stop watching movies and go read a book.

lol thank you most gracius reading pro. Im reading Robert Jordan right now actually. At this very minute.


I understand how you feel. You wanted Avatar to be a psycholgical thriller or offer a perspective youd never thought off. Fair enough Avatar wasnt that kind of movie. But it also wasnt meant to be. It was meant to be a simple and timeless message that offers allot more to humanity than a movie like fight club ever could.



There is no problem with simple, there is a problem with how Cameron made it simple, do you not realize at any given point in the movie, he fucking spelled out every fucking thing that was going on just in case the viewer didn't understand the inherently simple dialogue and plot in the first place? There wasn't room for any thought because it was like Cameron fed you a meal and told you exactly how it was made and what was in it, etc.

Here, someone criticized Avatar for spoon-feeding too much.





SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU GUYS WANT?!

STOP THINKING SO GOD DAMN MUCH.
The first is them complaining there are plot holes. Not that they weren't spoon feeding the viewers.
Liquid | SKT
ShcShc
Profile Joined October 2006
Canada912 Posts
January 05 2010 21:31 GMT
#1123
On January 06 2010 06:27 DamageControL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2010 06:22 BanZu wrote:
On January 06 2010 06:03 Draconizard wrote:
On January 06 2010 05:57 sassme wrote:
StorkHwaiting, most of the things uve mentioned can be easily explained. I can't believe youre making a living off fantasy books and bringing these weak points to the table. Spinal repair, lizards not benefiting, helicopters - everything can be easily explained. You can hypothesize all you want what could be researched before what etc. but you need some solid argument, not this load of crap. Im not going to explain why you could be wrong in every particular case, youre the fantasy writer, you should be able to come up with an explanation if someone like me easily does.

and nice ownage hot_bid ahhaa


The point is that the viewers should not have to bend over backward to come up with the explanations themselves. Look; I too can easily explain any and all plot holes (in this movie or any other medium): a wizard did it. Does such an explanation satisfy you?

Here, someone criticizes Avatar for not spoon-feeding the audience.

On January 06 2010 00:37 Judicator wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:33 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:31 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:26 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 09:16 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Fans should stop trying to defend the plot and stick to the movie's strengths: its visuals.

lol the plot was really good. I LIKED the plot. Its a great story and its message is much more important than any other movie ive seen this year. It was elegant in its simplicity. Now everybody repeat after me

Simple does not equal bad.




Here's a pro tip. Stop watching movies and go read a book.

lol thank you most gracius reading pro. Im reading Robert Jordan right now actually. At this very minute.


I understand how you feel. You wanted Avatar to be a psycholgical thriller or offer a perspective youd never thought off. Fair enough Avatar wasnt that kind of movie. But it also wasnt meant to be. It was meant to be a simple and timeless message that offers allot more to humanity than a movie like fight club ever could.



There is no problem with simple, there is a problem with how Cameron made it simple, do you not realize at any given point in the movie, he fucking spelled out every fucking thing that was going on just in case the viewer didn't understand the inherently simple dialogue and plot in the first place? There wasn't room for any thought because it was like Cameron fed you a meal and told you exactly how it was made and what was in it, etc.

Here, someone criticized Avatar for spoon-feeding too much.





SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU GUYS WANT?!

STOP THINKING SO GOD DAMN MUCH.
The first is them complaining there are plot holes. Not that they weren't spoon feeding the viewers.


Maybe there are valid plot holes, but when someone complain about something self-explanatory as "not being able to fix a spinal injury due to money issues", then there's a problem.

Kind of like the kid saying "why" all the time and to all the answers.
God DAJNFBGHSfIDSHUKLFHSGUIO! -Jinro
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
January 05 2010 21:31 GMT
#1124
On January 06 2010 03:52 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2010 03:05 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 06 2010 03:02 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 06 2010 02:52 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 06 2010 02:50 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 06 2010 02:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:31 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:26 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 09:16 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Fans should stop trying to defend the plot and stick to the movie's strengths: its visuals.

lol the plot was really good. I LIKED the plot. Its a great story and its message is much more important than any other movie ive seen this year. It was elegant in its simplicity. Now everybody repeat after me

Simple does not equal bad.




Here's a pro tip. Stop watching movies and go read a book. Movies are almost universally shallow and terrible. Comparing its "message," which is a cliche environmentalist plug, to that of other vapid entertainment isn't saying much.

I am a pretty avid reader and I agree books are great, often better than movies, but are you really suggesting someone "stop watching Avatar" and "go read a book"?

This movie is probably the last movie on earth that you should read a book instead of go see, can you imagine how bad a book version of this would be lol?


I totally agree with you. What I was trying to tell him is that if he thinks Avatar had a good plot, he needs to go read some books to see what an actual good plot is like.


lol you have no idea how many books I read. Your arguement couldnt be more invalid if it tried.

Go read "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Campbell and then well talk about story archetypes.


Joseph Campbell's book is a great book of literary study. I fail to see your point, though. There's a world of difference between constructing a classic narrative structure and having a story that relies completely on poorly thought out plot devices.


Have you actually read the book? Because if so Id like to discuss how Jake Sully's journey IS the monomyth. Its anything but poorly thought out.


+ Show Spoiler +
You don't seem to realize that anyone can create a plot that perfectly follows the monomyth and it's still a shitty story. If it was that easy, don't you think there'd be a lot more bestselling authors out there? We could all just open J Campbell's book, change a few aesthetic details here and there, and be bestsellers right?

Campbell's world is poorly thought out. The protag's entire purpose for going to Pandora is to try to get money/spine repair. This is a world where a single company has the material wealth to fund the colonization/strip mining of a planet. That implies a gigantic leap in general wealth of human civilization.

Now, how can a spinal repair be SO expensive in a world that much richer? If you look at the average per capita wealth of a citizen compared to the GDP of the nation, you'll see that it doesn't make much sense for a material culture that wealthy to have a person unable to pay for a spine repair. Yes, there are differing levels of prosperity around the planet, but Jake Sully obviously came from one of the more economically prosperous nation-states (if there even are nations on Earth anymore). People in general would not stand around and allow gov't/corporations to gouge them THAT badly in terms of basic pricing indexes.

In TODAY's world we are very close to a cure for spinal injuries already. Tissue regeneration techniques that have been demoed at the lab-rat level; microprocessor-based electronic bypass; and first-response techniques that prevent a lot of the damage as the accident/trauma occurs.

Now you're telling me in a future where human/alien DNA can be spliced together to form a viable living creature AND bring this creature to life (which are basically god-powers) AND use an MRI machine to telepathically control this alien, they don't have a cheap and affordable way to repair spines?

Sorry, spinal repair/damage prevention is the kind of thing that would be 100% taken care of before a marine ever signs a contract. In fact, it's economically profitable for the gov't/company to do so. It's expensive to train a soldier. It's expensive to maintain them. And it's expensive to pay them disabilities. The economically sensible thing to do is put first-response tech into a soldier's spine so the damage doesn't occur in the first place.

I'd be fine if James Cameron created a world where bio-tech was not advanced and someone got a spinal injury etc. But he didn't. He fills his movie with millions of reasons for why spinal repair shouldn't be expensive, then gives the main character a spinal injury as his raison d'etre. This has nothing to do with a stupid monomyth. This is flat out shitty SF extrapolation.

I can go on with many other facets of the movie that are broken. Take the flying lizards for instance. They're gigantic, flying meat-eating predators. Yet, somehow they've been domesticated by the Na'vi. Do you see many cultures with herds of tigers? No. You don't. Why? It's economically insane. The costs of feeding meat to these fuckers outweighs any amount of meat you'd actually get from training them to help hunt. OK, fair enough, they just ride the flying lizards when they went, otherwise the lizards hunt on their own.

OK, so what competitive advantage do the lizards get for helping the Na'vi and risking life and limb? Oh, that's right. NONE. They just do it coz they were all born with USB cords and getting beat up in one fight makes the lizard loyal to the bitter end. Makes a lot of sense. Further, the lizards are seen to inhabit rock cliffs in gigantic flocks. This makes zero sense as there's no ecology that could support that level of top-tier predators. The caloric density would need to be immense for that to occur. Almost impossible on land, and only possible underwater due to having huge areas of nearly empty ocean with roaming herds of fish/squid etc similar to pastoralism.

Third, if the Na'vi are all connected to the soul tree, and literally share a telepathic link with the land and the other Na'vi people, why do they have a crude tribal society that has a warrior and priest caste and the population is segregated into several competing tribes. It was stated in the movie that the tribes wouldn't unite or help each other until one of them got on a giant orange lizard. OK, now why would they be living in a very human-esque way when they have a completely alien form of communication. When they've got a hive mind filled with all the voices of their ancestors, you'd think some of these barriers of miscommunication and concept of "other" would fade away. When those kinds of barriers to cooperation fade away, you don't see internecine tribal warfare and segregation like the Na'vi world has. Again, James Cameron created a concept of spiritualism then pasted a cliched "native" type society on top of it. The two don't go together. It's hard to justify war to people when everyone's linked together. It's like telling someone to kill their brother. Yeah, they can do it with enough pressure, but highly unlikely, and nearly impossible on a societal level. Propaganda doesn't work when people can just plug into each other.

Then you have the entire concept of monogamy. How would monogamy work in a society like the Na'vi where everything is supposed to be connected and life is sacred? What would be the point of monogamy? That seems like a very stupid facet to add for no reason other than James Cameron wanting the warrior guy to have conflict with Jake. Oh, well we could argue it's the basic tenet of life trying to maximize expression of one's own genes and the social more was built out of that need to regulate sexual competition. But wait, that's an Earth type of trait. Pandora's an alien world. Why is this alien world operating on the same type of logic as Earth-based creatures? Kind of invalidates anyone saying that you can't use Earth-based evolutionary logic and apply it to Pandora. Because James Cameron's does it himself by placing monogamy as a social more into Na'vi culture.

Then there is the economically unfeasible way that the corporation somehow has weaponry perfectly suited to Pandora's atmosphere. If humans can't breath it, that means the gas composition of the atmosphere is different from Earth's. Helicopters are not going to just fly like normal. Rockets are not going to active afterburners and speed off like normal. Not a single aspect of Earth-based weaponry will function with any degree of combat reliability on another planet.

So, somehow, this corporation, while bankrolling the colonization and mining of an entire planet, can also fund the R&D to develop an entire military for the purposes of mining Pandora. When at the beginning of the movie they're not even sure if it will lead to war or not. The entire point of trying for peace is to avoid the prohibitive costs of developing and deploying weapons suited to Pandora. Except, that's not exciting in a movie. No, in the movie, all the actual costs of a war are already paid for and there's just this grizzled Colonel rearing to go kick some alien butt. Therefore, there's no point to developing an expensive avatar program whatsoever and the obviously least expensive route is to wipe out the Na'vi. But no, that's not what a corporation does. They simultaneously create a massive civilian based research/anthropology program to study/interact/perhaps over a decade understand and persuade the natives to leave, while being a mining operation, while being a military R&D company. YEAH, that makes a LOT of business sense.

OH WAIT, but maybe there was a private para-military organization that came and did all the R&D beforehand then just left. So they can sit on Earth and sell their products to all the mining companies leaving to go to Pandora. Except there's only one company on Pandora. And logically, a company would secure exclusive rights before they invested that much money into a planet-sized operation. So an entire corporation would go all the way to an alien planet so they can do R&D, develop weapons, and then just leave, in the hopes that a mining company will go to Pandora and then want to buy their stuff. Right!

Sorry, James Cameron didn't think this shit through at all. He treats it like it's another country on planet Earth and all the economics and usual corporate hijinks that we use in Africa and the Middle East are good enough for a planet light-years away with a totally different atmosphere. He slapped some cliche concepts together that push the buttons of the general movie-goer and called it a day. Killing trees = bad. Killing natives for resources = bad. Native culture = pure, good, healing. I'm fine with whatever theme he wants to create, but he needs to do a better job plot-wise and world-building wise to have these themes actually make sense. He didn't. Everything he put into the plot and world-building was solely so he could create scenes like glowsticks hanging from branches, vast flapping hordes of flying lizards, and a massive tree getting rocketed to death by a helicopter fleet.

You're obviously not trolling but your comment would work as a trollish comment simply because you're just picking so much for no good reason other than to argue.
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
Zanno
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1484 Posts
January 05 2010 21:38 GMT
#1125
This is the only thread on the internet I can find with people in it who don't like Avatar. I think it's just another classic example of some people who just hate things because everyone else likes it.

Seriously, this is one of those movies that people will still be watching 20 years from now.
aaaaa
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-05 22:00:44
January 05 2010 21:38 GMT
#1126
You obviously missed allot of the movie. Allot of these things you bring up are part of the message. For instance the thing about not being able to afford spinal surgery is a statement about the human experience. Nevertheless to make it clear for you I have decided to answer the rest of your post in pictures.

On January 06 2010 03:52 StorkHwaiting wrote:


You don't seem to realize that anyone can create a plot that perfectly follows the monomyth and it's still a shitty story. If it was that easy, don't you think there'd be a lot more bestselling authors out there? We could all just open J Campbell's book, change a few aesthetic details here and there, and be bestsellers right?

Campbell's world is poorly thought out. The protag's entire purpose for going to Pandora is to try to get money/spine repair. This is a world where a single company has the material wealth to fund the colonization/strip mining of a planet. That implies a gigantic leap in general wealth of human civilization.

Now, how can a spinal repair be SO expensive in a world that much richer? If you look at the average per capita wealth of a citizen compared to the GDP of the nation, you'll see that it doesn't make much sense for a material culture that wealthy to have a person unable to pay for a spine repair. Yes, there are differing levels of prosperity around the planet, but Jake Sully obviously came from one of the more economically prosperous nation-states (if there even are nations on Earth anymore). People in general would not stand around and allow gov't/corporations to gouge them THAT badly in terms of basic pricing indexes.

[image loading]


I can go on with many other facets of the movie that are broken. Take the flying lizards for instance. They're gigantic, flying meat-eating predators. Yet, somehow they've been domesticated by the Na'vi. Do you see many cultures with herds of tigers? No. You don't. Why? It's economically insane. The costs of feeding meat to these fuckers outweighs any amount of meat you'd actually get from training them to help hunt.

[image loading]


OK, so what competitive advantage do the lizards get for helping the Na'vi and risking life and limb? Oh, that's right. NONE. They just do it coz they were all born with USB cords and getting beat up in one fight makes the lizard loyal to the bitter end. Makes a lot of sense. Further, the lizards are seen to inhabit rock cliffs in gigantic flocks. This makes zero sense as there's no ecology that could support that level of top-tier predators. The caloric density would need to be immense for that to occur. Almost impossible on land, and only possible underwater due to having huge areas of nearly empty ocean with roaming herds of fish/squid etc similar to pastoralism.

[image loading]


Third, if the Na'vi are all connected to the soul tree, and literally share a telepathic link with the land and the other Na'vi people, why do they have a crude tribal society that has a warrior and priest caste and the population is segregated into several competing tribes. It was stated in the movie that the tribes wouldn't unite or help each other until one of them got on a giant orange lizard. OK, now why would they be living in a very human-esque way when they have a completely alien form of communication. When they've got a hive mind filled with all the voices of their ancestors, you'd think some of these barriers of miscommunication and concept of "other" would fade away. When those kinds of barriers to cooperation fade away, you don't see internecine tribal warfare and segregation like the Na'vi world has. Again, James Cameron created a concept of spiritualism then pasted a cliched "native" type society on top of it. The two don't go together. It's hard to justify war to people when everyone's linked together. It's like telling someone to kill their brother. Yeah, they can do it with enough pressure, but highly unlikely, and nearly impossible on a societal level. Propaganda doesn't work when people can just plug into each other.

[image loading]


Then you have the entire concept of monogamy. How would monogamy work in a society like the Na'vi where everything is supposed to be connected and life is sacred? What would be the point of monogamy?

[image loading]


Then there is the economically unfeasible way that the corporation somehow has weaponry perfectly suited to Pandora's atmosphere. If humans can't breath it, that means the gas composition of the atmosphere is different from Earth's. Helicopters are not going to just fly like normal. Rockets are not going to active afterburners and speed off like normal. Not a single aspect of Earth-based weaponry will function with any degree of combat reliability on another planet.


lol this one was funny because what you just said was the explaination for why the humans were using helicopters and not other ships. Thats why they dont use energy weapons etc... Its really amazing you took the explaination and without any real proof that it couldn't work said this could never work. I would love to see you prove that helicopters couldnt fly in it considering you dont even know what the composition is.


So, somehow, this corporation, while bankrolling the colonization and mining of an entire planet, can also fund the R&D to develop an entire military for the purposes of mining Pandora. When at the beginning of the movie they're not even sure if it will lead to war or not. The entire point of trying for peace is to avoid the prohibitive costs of developing and deploying weapons suited to Pandora. Except, that's not exciting in a movie. No, in the movie, all the actual costs of a war are already paid for and there's just this grizzled Colonel rearing to go kick some alien butt. Therefore, there's no point to developing an expensive avatar program whatsoever and the obviously least expensive route is to wipe out the Na'vi. But no, that's not what a corporation does. They simultaneously create a massive civilian based research/anthropology program to study/interact/perhaps over a decade understand and persuade the natives to leave, while being a mining operation, while being a military R&D company. YEAH, that makes a LOT of business sense.

Once again your missing allot of the message about how humans think.
[image loading]



OH WAIT, but maybe there was a private para-military organization that came and did all the R&D beforehand then just left. So they can sit on Earth and sell their products to all the mining companies leaving to go to Pandora. Except there's only one company on Pandora. And logically, a company would secure exclusive rights before they invested that much money into a planet-sized operation. So an entire corporation would go all the way to an alien planet so they can do R&D, develop weapons, and then just leave, in the hopes that a mining company will go to Pandora and then want to buy their stuff. Right!

Again helicopters and guns work on pandora and untill you can tell me why they wouldnt (instead of hand waving) this doesnt stand.


Sorry, James Cameron didn't think this shit through at all. He treats it like it's another country on planet Earth and all the economics and usual corporate hijinks that we use in Africa and the Middle East are good enough for a planet light-years away with a totally different atmosphere. He slapped some cliche concepts together that push the buttons of the general movie-goer and called it a day. Killing trees = bad. Killing natives for resources = bad. Native culture = pure, good, healing. I'm fine with whatever theme he wants to create, but he needs to do a better job plot-wise and world-building wise to have these themes actually make sense. He didn't. Everything he put into the plot and world-building was solely so he could create scenes like glowsticks hanging from branches, vast flapping hordes of flying lizards, and a massive tree getting rocketed to death by a helicopter fleet.


It is a shame because in addition to making facts up and acting like you have this omniscient knowledge of science and economics in the future, It seems you have completly missed and in many cases been confused by the central messages. This is especially sad since you, more than most, could have used the message and themes that Avatar had to offer.






http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
January 05 2010 21:39 GMT
#1127
On January 06 2010 06:12 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2010 05:57 sassme wrote:
StorkHwaiting, most of the things uve mentioned can be easily explained. I can't believe youre making a living off fantasy books and bringing these weak points to the table. Spinal repair, lizards not benefiting, helicopters - everything can be easily explained. You can hypothesize all you want what could be researched before what etc. but you need some solid argument, not this load of crap. Im not going to explain why you could be wrong in every particular case, youre the fantasy writer, you should be able to come up with an explanation if someone like me easily does.

and nice ownage hot_bid ahhaa


Go ahead and explain them then.

P.S. Don't use insults when you haven't brought up any counter-points and have exhibited no knowledge in either fantasy or SF. Especially considering Avatar is not a fantasy movie.

It's not a "hypothesis." It's called scientific extrapolation. If you don't know what this term means, you don't belong in a debate about SF, whether hard or soft. I can come up with a fantasy explanation for your post, btw. A pair of goblins came and stole your brain last night.

Why is Avatar not a fantasy movie?

The only "insult" I saw was "load of crap" and that's only telling you the truth. Your points were pretty ridiculous to be honest. :/
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
SirKibbleX
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States479 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-05 22:01:24
January 05 2010 21:42 GMT
#1128
On January 06 2010 03:52 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2010 03:05 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 06 2010 03:02 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 06 2010 02:52 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 06 2010 02:50 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 06 2010 02:40 Hot_Bid wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:31 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On January 05 2010 10:26 Archerofaiur wrote:
On January 05 2010 09:16 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Fans should stop trying to defend the plot and stick to the movie's strengths: its visuals.

lol the plot was really good. I LIKED the plot. Its a great story and its message is much more important than any other movie ive seen this year. It was elegant in its simplicity. Now everybody repeat after me

Simple does not equal bad.






Here's a pro tip. Stop watching movies and go read a book. Movies are almost universally shallow and terrible. Comparing its "message," which is a cliche environmentalist plug, to that of other vapid entertainment isn't saying much.

I am a pretty avid reader and I agree books are great, often better than movies, but are you really suggesting someone "stop watching Avatar" and "go read a book"?

This movie is probably the last movie on earth that you should read a book instead of go see, can you imagine how bad a book version of this would be lol?


I totally agree with you. What I was trying to tell him is that if he thinks Avatar had a good plot, he needs to go read some books to see what an actual good plot is like.


lol you have no idea how many books I read. Your arguement couldnt be more invalid if it tried.

Go read "Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Campbell and then well talk about story archetypes.


Joseph Campbell's book is a great book of literary study. I fail to see your point, though. There's a world of difference between constructing a classic narrative structure and having a story that relies completely on poorly thought out plot devices.


Have you actually read the book? Because if so Id like to discuss how Jake Sully's journey IS the monomyth. Its anything but poorly thought out.


This is my response to StorkHwaiting, with my comments in bold.

You don't seem to realize that anyone can create a plot that perfectly follows the monomyth and it's still a shitty story. If it was that easy, don't you think there'd be a lot more bestselling authors out there? We could all just open J Campbell's book, change a few aesthetic details here and there, and be bestsellers right? Or you could write a story about angsty vampires. Sales =/= good.

Campbell's Cameron's? world is poorly thought out. The protag's entire purpose for going to Pandora is to try to get money/spine repair.This is factually wrong. Go see the movie again. This is a world where a single company has the material wealth to fund the colonization/strip mining of a planet. That implies a gigantic leap in general wealth of human civilization.

Not necessarily. A mega-corporation of the future could essentially be speculating that they will make enough off the ore to offset the tremendous cost of colonization/strip mining. Also, these technologies may have already been pioneered in other places, we aren't really told whether Pandora is the first other planet humanity has explored, or if there have been a few others, or several. More importantly, Sully did not go to Pandora for spine repair, he went for money to get a spine repair. More on that later.

Now, how can a spinal repair be SO expensive in a world that much richer? If you look at the average per capita wealth of a citizen compared to the GDP of the nation, you'll see that it doesn't make much sense for a material culture that wealthy to have a person unable to pay for a spine repair. that this statistic varies wildly depending on nation and year. Speculating about 100 years in the future is clearly a horrible idea. Yes, there are differing levels of prosperity around the planet, but Jake Sully obviously wow, was it really that obvious? I didn't think so.came from one of the more economically prosperous nation-states (if there even are nations on Earth anymore). People in general would not stand around and allow gov't/corporations to gouge them THAT badly in terms of basic pricing indexes.

In TODAY's world we are very close to a cure for spinal injuries already. Tissue regeneration techniques that have been demoed at the lab-rat level; microprocessor-based electronic bypass; and first-response techniques that prevent a lot of the damage as the accident/trauma occurs.

Now you're telling me in a future where human/alien DNA can be spliced together to form a viable living creature AND bring this creature to life (which are basically god-powers) Not necessarily AND use an MRI machine to telepathically control this alien, at an outrageous, unspecified cost no less! they don't have a cheap and affordable way to repair spines?

Sorry, spinal repair/damage prevention is the kind of thing that would be 100% taken care of before a marine ever signs a contract. In fact, it's economically profitable for the gov't/company to do so. It's expensive to train a soldier. It's expensive to maintain them. And it's expensive to pay them disabilities. The economically sensible thing to do is put first-response tech into a soldier's spine so the damage doesn't occur in the first place.

Okay, I get the point, you think they'll have spine repairs in the future. For cheap. Got it. Jake's main reason for going to Pandora wasn't to get his spine repaired, it was to get paid like everyone else. You really have no imagination if you seriously can't imagine a scenario where this is possible. That or you are extremely rich or naive and have never had to pay a medical/hospital bill before. The corporation knew Jake would be piloting an Avatar anyways, so there really was no need to get him a spinal repair. Furthermore, it's a movie. Give it just a little creative license and maybe you'd enjoy it more?

I'd be fine if James Cameron created a world where bio-tech was not advanced and someone got a spinal injury etc. But he didn't. He fills his movie with millions of reasons for why spinal repair shouldn't be expensive, then gives the main character a spinal injury as his raison d'etre. This has nothing to do with a stupid monomyth. This is flat out shitty SF extrapolation.

Sully's raison d'etre was that he shared a huge portion of his brother's genome and it allowed the Avatar his brother was going to pilot to still be used. Did you even watch the movie? To me, the injury added to Sully's characterization because it allowed us to view him as something of an underdog.

I can go on with many other facets of the movie that are broken. Take the flying lizards for instance. They're gigantic, flying meat-eating predators. Yet, somehow they've been domesticated by the Na'vi. Do you see many cultures with herds of tigers? No. You don't. Why? It's economically insane. The costs of feeding meat to these fuckers outweighs any amount of meat you'd actually get from training them to help hunt. OK, fair enough, they just ride the flying lizards when they went, otherwise the lizards hunt on their own.

Wow I'm glad I don't know you, you must be the most boring person on the entire world. If I did know you, I wouldn't hang out with you, even if you do play Starcraft. Why is it so hard to just watch a movie and enjoy the film or the plot and characterization without criticizing the logistics in a movie which is already billed as pure fantasy?

OK, so what competitive advantage do the lizards get for helping the Na'vi and risking life and limb? Oh, that's right. NONE. They just do it coz they were all born with USB cords and getting beat up in one fight makes the lizard loyal to the bitter end. Makes a lot of sense. Further, the lizards are seen to inhabit rock cliffs in gigantic flocks. This makes zero sense as there's no ecology that could support that level of top-tier predators. The caloric density would need to be immense for that to occur. Almost impossible on land, and only possible underwater due to having huge areas of nearly empty ocean with roaming herds of fish/squid etc similar to pastoralism.

Seriously. Go. Outside. Talk. To. Girls.

Third, if the Na'vi are all connected to the soul tree, and literally share a telepathic link with the land and the other Na'vi people, why do they have a crude tribal society that has a warrior and priest caste and the population is segregated into several competing tribes. It was stated in the movie that the tribes wouldn't unite or help each other until one of them got on a giant orange lizard. OK, now why would they be living in a very human-esque way when they have a completely alien form of communication. When they've got a hive mind filled with all the voices of their ancestors, you'd think some of these barriers of miscommunication and concept of "other" would fade away. When those kinds of barriers to cooperation fade away, you don't see internecine tribal warfare and segregation like the Na'vi world has. Again, James Cameron created a concept of spiritualism then pasted a cliched "native" type society on top of it. The two don't go together. It's hard to justify war to people when everyone's linked together. It's like telling someone to kill their brother. Yeah, they can do it with enough pressure, but highly unlikely, and nearly impossible on a societal level. Propaganda doesn't work when people can just plug into each other.

I more or less agree with you that Cameron mishandled this. I don't, however, feel like the Na'vi were explored adequately to understand how their planetary network works. If the Amatticaya(?) could only access their ancestors memories and not those of other tribes, then it might be possible that the lack of understanding could lead to differences in culture and therefore, a clear understanding of 'other-ness'.

Then you have the entire concept of monogamy. How would monogamy work in a society like the Na'vi where everything is supposed to be connected and life is sacred? What would be the point of monogamy? That seems like a very stupid facet to add for no reason other than James Cameron wanting the warrior guy to have conflict with Jake. Oh, well we could argue it's the basic tenet of life trying to maximize expression of one's own genes and the social more was built out of that need to regulate sexual competition. But wait, that's an Earth type of trait.

Wait, what!? Have you never heard of/thought of parallel evolution? How do you know sexual reproduction isn't actually one of the most optimal methods of genetic differentiation/drift/expression and that it doesn't eventually develop on many planets? How do you know psychologies don't develop in parallel? Maybe certain psychological structures and constructs are simply optimized enough that few others can exist? Even 'emotions' which seem sub-optimal given the desire for survival and reproduction have proven themselves to be evolutionarily advantageous. Many, many cultures on Earth (not all, of course, but more than just 'the West') have customs relating to marriage. I understand that it's unlikely, but if it happened on our planet (a single humanoid specie with four limbs, a head, most of our organs in our torso, sexual reproduction, etc.) it's not entirely impossible that that is merely one of the most evolutionarily optimal arrangements.

Pandora's an alien world. Why is this alien world operating on the same type of logic as Earth-based creatures? Because the two worlds share the same physical laws? Kind of invalidates anyone saying that you can't use Earth-based evolutionary logic and apply it to Pandora. Because James Cameron's does it himself by placing monogamy as a social more into Na'vi culture.

Note: I understand your arguments about the evolutionary feasibility of USB2.0, and I agree that it was unnecessary, but really, it's just a movie. Again, give it some creative license.

Then there is the economically unfeasible way that the corporation somehow has weaponry perfectly suited to Pandora's atmosphere. If humans can't breath it, that means the gas composition of the atmosphere is different from Earth's. Helicopters are not going to just fly like normal. Rockets are not going to active afterburners and speed off like normal. Not a single aspect of Earth-based weaponry will function with any degree of combat reliability on another planet.

There are infinitely many combinations of gases that humans cannot breathe, and very, cert few that we can. All that matters for flight, however, is the density of the air. So really, the burdon of proof to say that helicopter's can't fly on Pandora is on you. And again, we don't know how advanced Earth is by this point. Maybe we can rapidly prototype and produce new machines to work nearly-optimally in an environment at relatively low cost by the year 2152 or whatever year it is. And actually, many technologies will more or less work exactly the same on another planet as they would here, only with slightly different performance parameters. Guns will still shoot, rockets (albeit without afterburners, perhaps they are using alternative chemistry given the different atmostphere?) will still fly, and given the fact that birds/dinosaurs are able to fly, helicopters would probably work as well.

So, somehow, this corporation, while bankrolling the colonization and mining of an entire planet, can also fund the R&D to develop an entire military for the purposes of mining Pandora. When at the beginning of the movie they're not even sure if it will lead to war or not. Have you _seen_ the indigenous species of Pandora? I understand humanity's fear of those giant tiger monsters or the hammerhead rhinos or even those little jackal things.

The entire point of trying for peace is to avoid the prohibitive costs of developing and deploying weapons suited to Pandora. Except, that's not exciting in a movie. No, in the movie, all the actual costs of a war are already paid for and there's just this grizzled Colonel rearing to go kick some alien butt. Therefore, there's no point to developing an expensive avatar program whatsoever and the obviously least expensive route is to wipe out the Na'vi. But no, that's not what a corporation does. They simultaneously create a massive civilian based research/anthropology program to study/interact/perhaps over a decade understand and persuade the natives to leave, while being a mining operation, while being a military R&D company. YEAH, that makes a LOT of business sense.

Again, learn2imagination. In fact, learn to business. See the East India Trading company. If there was that much money to be made, I don't think the cost of doing R&D for military hardware to protect expensive harvesters and personnel is even a factor.

OH WAIT, but maybe there was a private para-military organization that came and did all the R&D beforehand then just left. So they can sit on Earth and sell their products to all the mining companies leaving to go to Pandora. Except there's only one company on Pandora. And logically, a company would secure exclusive rights before they invested that much money into a planet-sized operation. So an entire corporation would go all the way to an alien planet so they can do R&D, develop weapons, and then just leave, in the hopes that a mining company will go to Pandora and then want to buy their stuff. Right!

Thats not what happens, you got it right the first time.

Sorry, James Cameron didn't think this shit through at all. He treats it like it's another country on planet Earth and all the economics and usual corporate hijinks that we use in Africa and the Middle East are good enough for a planet light-years away with a totally different atmosphere. He slapped some cliche concepts together that push the buttons of the general movie-goer and called it a day. Killing trees = bad. Killing natives for resources = bad. Native culture = pure, good, healing. I'm fine with whatever theme he wants to create, but he needs to do a better job plot-wise and world-building wise to have these themes actually make sense. He didn't. Everything he put into the plot and world-building was solely so he could create scenes like glowsticks hanging from branches, vast flapping hordes of flying lizards, and a massive tree getting rocketed to death by a helicopter fleet.

Fine, except it was a good movie. It wasn't trying to change the hearts and minds of the world or give you an existential crisis or something. It wasn't trying to be an episode of the twilight zone or even more mind-numbing 'thriller' movie full of inane twists and little in the way of excitement. It was meant to be viscerally exciting, to remind us that we're human, not automatons. Go run a mile and flip into a ditch, crash a bike, or dance with someone beautiful. I'll finish by quoting myself from a few pages back:

Show nested quote +

The terrible truth is that Star Wars Episode 4 could have come out today and people would be talking about how shitty the plot and action were.

People insulting this movie are utterly baffling to me. The plot was clean, extremely well-executed, and for the utterly massive amount of exposition that needed to happen, it all happened in a very logical, well-written sequence. The characterization was strong and made me cheer for the protagonist as any movie should. Drama comes from having someone you can identify with face a challenging obstacle and your mind internally rooting for this character.

If I hear someone say that the use of the word 'Unobtainium' somehow broke their suspension of disbelief, I'm going to seriously question their imagination. I'm almost insulted by how stupid some people are. It's like people who get pissed off because you don't find out what's in the brief case in Pulp Fiction. The answer is: it doesn't matter. How relevant is it to the story why Unobtainium is worth "20 Million a kilo"? All that matters is that a greedy corporation is there on Pandora for the sole purpose of harvesting its mineral wealth.

And for the people who complained about the floating mountains or the bonding between animals, why don't you grow up (or maybe, grow down) and learn to dream a little? It's a movie, and in Science Fiction sometimes there are phenomena which are unexplained even by the science of the particular universe you're in. Science isn't about making everything we see fit with what we know, it's about making what we assume to be the laws of physics fit the data of the world we see around us.

Some people like to complain that the corporation is some kind of strawman argument or that Colonel Quaritch is an unrealistic character. Ever seen Star Wars? Pretty much any westerns?
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? Shindler's List? The Lord of the Rings? Raiders of the Lost Ark? Almost all of them have a very 'unrealistic' character or two, and one of them is almost always the villain. Why then do so many of the best movies of all time manage to attain that title without realistic characters? Because it doesn't matter. What matters is drama.

Learn what makes a movie good before you go and complain about them. Unfortunately I think I'm more saddened that people can't just go see and enjoy a movie thats easily the most fun I've had in a theater since Indiana Jones or Ghostbusters. Fun is dead.



[/b][/b]
Praemonitus, Praemunitus.
DwmC_Foefen
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Belgium2186 Posts
January 05 2010 21:45 GMT
#1129
wow


clusterfuck of comments lol :p

you guys....


silly guys ^^
Dave[9]
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
United States2365 Posts
January 05 2010 21:48 GMT
#1130
seriously...leave it to teamliquid to hate on an amazing movie..Most of us vets probably knew this was going to happen as soon as the movie came out.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154&currentpage=316#6317
inertinept
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Bangladesh1195 Posts
January 05 2010 21:58 GMT
#1131
and everyone on tl wonders why they are depressed

yawn
With a gust of wind, perhaps.
NiGoL
Profile Joined September 2008
1868 Posts
January 05 2010 21:59 GMT
#1132
On January 06 2010 06:48 Dave[9] wrote:
seriously...leave it to teamliquid to hate on an amazing movie..Most of us vets probably knew this was going to happen as soon as the movie came out.


Thumbs up!
http://www.twitter.com/NiGoLBW playing league on a competitive level
CrimsonLotus
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Colombia1123 Posts
January 05 2010 22:02 GMT
#1133
I hate this movie so much... I mean, it's so expensive and so popular, it just makes me want to rage that so many people like this piece of shit instead of a master piece like *insert random independent movie with ghetto budget*, damn retarded Hollywood with their retarded blockbusters.

PD: I saw they movie, i felt it was a little boring, but very impressive on the technical side.
444 444 444 444
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 05 2010 22:05 GMT
#1134
Archer:
#1 Jake Sully isn't from poverty-stricken Africa. That's why his brother had PhDs and he was in the armed service. It's pretty obvious from the way he interacts with the other humans that he's a close parallel to a blue-collar American. Not some poor African child who lives in a nation of abject poverty.

#2. You obviously don't understand the difference between a horse, which eats grass, and a tiger, which eats meat. Just LOL that you think the cost of raising a herd of horses is similar to a herd of tigers. LOL.

#3. I wasn't aware Native Americans have soul trees that allow them to instantly tap into all the ancestral memories of their people and have a telepathic connection with each other and the planet around them. Thanks for telling me (and the rest of the world).

#4. You're comparing a private corporation with a country. Nice to see you don't know the difference. I'm sure next year we'll see IBM invade Taiwan to lower their cost of manufacture.

Overall, what I've seen from your post is that you have the complete inability to understand anything I said. Probably because you lack the requisite pool of knowledge to make sense of them. (Like knowing horses eat grass and tigers don't.)

Anyhow, I'm done here. I offered my points and I'm quite alright with people disagreeing. Just wish there were more responses that showed a decent knowledge of scientific extrapolation rather than.... this.

P.S. James Cameron's theme was quite obvious. It was heavy-handed and poorly done liberal propaganda. I'm a registered Democrat and even I thought it was over the top. (Me being someone who's donated thousands of dollars to conservation groups, done thousands of hours of volunteer work at animal shelters and habitat clean up groups, recycles every Tuesday, and doesn't drive a car). It's great that Cameron wants to bring issues like environmentalism and income gap disparity to the forefront, but he didn't do a good job of presenting them in the movie.
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
January 05 2010 22:07 GMT
#1135
On January 06 2010 06:38 Zanno wrote:
Seriously, this is one of those movies that people will still be watching 20 years from now.


I doubt that tbh. While I enjoyed it a lot, the movie's nothing special beyond its visuals and it's to be expected that the visuals are going to be matched and outdone by many movies 20 years from now. On the other hand, it's probably going to be remembered for introducing a new era in CGI.
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
duckhunt
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada311 Posts
January 05 2010 22:10 GMT
#1136
the funny thing is that i bet storkhwaiting has seen the movie 5 times ^_^ LOL
btw i thought avatar was excellent!
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
January 05 2010 22:16 GMT
#1137
In regards to hard-to-swallow things like training flying predators to hunt, biological USB, etc: Any scriptwriter worth his salt could have come up with a hundred plausible explanations for how these things evolved or developed, and if Avatar had been a book I'm sure they would all have been in there.

But the movie was already two and a half hours long. Do you, as the audience member, really want to sit through an extra half-hour of movie as they explain the scientific intricacies behind all those little plot devices? I sure as hell don't. There was enough exposition to explain all the major ones, and I'm happy to fill in the blanks with my own imagination.

"mother earth" on Pandora seems to be a planet spanning sentient creature containing the souls of all the past Na'vi; is it so hard to believe that such an entity could have directed the evolution of some of Pandoras organisms? Did crap like that (that has nothing to do with the plot) really need to be stuck in the movie so all the extra bases are covered?
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-05 22:17:36
January 05 2010 22:16 GMT
#1138
On January 06 2010 07:05 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Archer:
#1 Jake Sully isn't from poverty-stricken Africa. That's why his brother had PhDs and he was in the armed service. It's pretty obvious from the way he interacts with the other humans that he's a close parallel to a blue-collar American. Not some poor African child who lives in a nation of abject poverty.


The idea is that wealth disparity is massive and unjust and only continues to grow. This is one of the central themes of not only the movie but human history.


#2. You obviously don't understand the difference between a horse, which eats grass, and a tiger, which eats meat. Just LOL that you think the cost of raising a herd of horses is similar to a herd of tigers. LOL.

Handwaving. Crunch the numbers and show us what it a creature like that would eat. Instead of making stuff up. You watch 3 hours of the movie and pretend you know all the info nessisary to say that the Navi can't sustain large predatory animals. Thats hilarious especially given the enviroment that their in.


#3. I wasn't aware Native Americans have soul trees that allow them to instantly tap into all the ancestral memories of their people and have a telepathic connection with each other and the planet around them. Thanks for telling me (and the rest of the world).

Again he watches 3 hours and he is suddenly an expert in tree telepathy. You have no knowledge of what level this connection is and what effect this has on the Navi's sence of idenity.

Now what I can offer to you is the traditions and beliefs of the Native Americans which held all life as connected and yet still went to war with each other. And this is the part where your supposed to stop, sit down, and think about what that says about humans.


#4. You're comparing a private corporation with a country. Nice to see you don't know the difference. I'm sure next year we'll see IBM invade Taiwan to lower their cost of manufacture.


Another point missed but its good cause it give me a chance to explain another trend in human history. That is the rise of corporations and the intermingling of state and business. This isnt Sci fi here. This is real life.


Also I want to say that while your um fabrication skills are out of this world, your volunteer efforts are commendable.


http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 05 2010 22:17 GMT
#1139
On January 06 2010 07:10 duckhunt wrote:
the funny thing is that i bet storkhwaiting has seen the movie 5 times ^_^ LOL
btw i thought avatar was excellent!


Saw it once with my gf in 3-D. It was a great movie and fun to watch. I've never said anything different. Some fanboys are way too obsessive and can't take anyone saying the movie's not perfect. I never said it wasn't good, just that there were elements like the plot/characterization which were shallow. Something that many, many people have also expressed. I just happened to be specific about my critique.

It's kind of like watching Boxer play. It's really fun and he does a lot of cool things, but it doesn't mean his game is flawless. A movie can have mistakes and still be enjoyable. I'm kind of puzzled how anyone could sit through Avatar and think it was remotely close to perfect. It's not a matter of taste or loving lil indie films (which I almost never watch) at all. I love fantasy and SF and I go to watch pretty much every single one that comes out. I'd have seen this film if it only had 10 mill in sales at the box office. This one just happened to blow up and now we got bunches of rabid fanboys, very similar to the ones who think Naruto is a 100% perfect manga.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 05 2010 22:21 GMT
#1140
On January 06 2010 07:16 Biochemist wrote:
In regards to hard-to-swallow things like training flying predators to hunt, biological USB, etc: Any scriptwriter worth his salt could have come up with a hundred plausible explanations for how these things evolved or developed, and if Avatar had been a book I'm sure they would all have been in there.

But the movie was already two and a half hours long. Do you, as the audience member, really want to sit through an extra half-hour of movie as they explain the scientific intricacies behind all those little plot devices? I sure as hell don't. There was enough exposition to explain all the major ones, and I'm happy to fill in the blanks with my own imagination.

"mother earth" on Pandora seems to be a planet spanning sentient creature containing the souls of all the past Na'vi; is it so hard to believe that such an entity could have directed the evolution of some of Pandoras organisms? Did crap like that (that has nothing to do with the plot) really need to be stuck in the movie so all the extra bases are covered?


The hard-to-swallow things like flying predators serve as one of the biggest plot-devices in the movie. It's pretty bad when you don't explain your deus-ex machina, considering Jake miraculously became the leader of all the Na'vi by plugging into a big lizard.

The soul tree on Pandora was the major reason for why the Na'vi were supposed to be alien and different from humans. It's pretty bad when the entire reason why they're alien is not explained very well.

I'm not talking about sitting around explaining why the dogs have six legs or the rhinos have horns shaped like hammerheads. Those aren't plot relevant and therefore it's fine to have them skimmed over or not explained at all. But when it's absolutely crucial to the plot, and it serves as the SOLUTION to one of the major conflicts in the movie, then yeah, it's pretty bad when it has a shallow explanation.
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